Which culture is a rape culture?

[ioannis76]

According to progressives and leftists, the western culture is a "rape culture". Said group(s) disregard the fact that in the west rapists are punished, both in the judicial system and in the "unwritten" code of penal facilities (ie by other inmates), and that, along with murder, rape is considered to be one of the most severe crimes.
Despite what RAINN says, here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/...jail_why_this/

the truth seems to be different (as is frequently the case with third wave feminist claims):

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/...jail_why_this/

On the other hand, said progressives advocate the introduction of people from non-Western cultures in the West. Few people haven't seen the "refugees welcome here" sings that they parade, or the "free kisses for immigrants". They encourage "immigrants" to enter legally or not, western countries, despite the fact that a disproportionately large percentage of the crime of rape is committed by immigrants when they arrive in western countries.

My questions:
Is the western culture a "rape culture"? and how does one go about proving that point?
Is the islamic culture a rape culture? According to Milo Yannopoulos, it is: http://www.breitbart.com/milo/2016/1...-rape-culture/
But this is something I would like us to discuss here, so I won't persist on it, just yet.

Is it possible that muslim immigrants are somehow "infected" by "western rape culture"? Ie, muslim immigrants come to the West pure, and somehow, the west manages to turn a disproportinately large amount of them into rapists. If so, how does the west achieve that sort of "infection"?

If we accept that the actual rape culture is the muslim culture, then why is it that all these progressives (women's rights advocated VERY UCH included) wish the products of a rape culture to enter the West?

I welcome your opinions.

Thread moved to the Political Academy, as it doesn't concern a recent event. -Abdülmecid I

[Enros]

It's simply not true that leftists think developed countries are worse than developing countries when it comes to rape culture. It's common knowledge developing countries have severe social problems that are worse than anything in developed countries.

There is a group of Western conservatives who think they can criticize developing countries for negative cultural practices when they are equally guilty of those practices. For example after the New Year's Eve attacks in Cologne there were a lot of German conservatives are extremely critical of Muslim immigrants when in fact it is themselves who are personally to blame for the existence of German rape culture. It's fine for most people to criticize rape culture in the developing world, it's not fine for those people to do so because they are hypocrites.

SJWs: "We need to change our cultural practices that are accepting of rape and discrimination against women"
Conservatives: "Shut up, that's not true"

Later...
Conservatives: "Muslims need to change their cultural practices that are accepting of rape and discrimination against women"

[dogukan]

I don't think the left's overall position in the west is that "west is rape culture".

[isa0005]

Yes, I am of the OPINION that "Western Culture" as you put it, propagates the act of rape. Why? Because it is by its nature a 'culture' that is built upon the societal misogyny, sexism and especially patriarchal values that seek to undermine and oppress the 'other.' Why is this case you ask? Well I personally would put it down to the fact that the basis of "western culture" is built upon, historically speaking, especially warlike societies that valued strength, masculinity and the concepts of personal property, wealth, power, the idea of ownership and as such under valued if not outright challenged the idea of 'femininity,' identifying it, or rather forging into a concept of weakness. Rape is a direct and physical expression of this, the act of raping another, be that man or woman is by its nature an expression of these very values I have just mentioned. I could also go into the fact that Western Culture is also built off of especially evangelical Protestant and Roman Catholic values which by their nature are also especially patriarchal, however i won't as I feel I'd just be repeating myself.

As far as I'm aware there isn't a single nation in the Western World that was not built on the backs of these violent ideals, though please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As such, I would say yes "Western Culture" is a culture that propagates the pervasive normalization of rape due to societal attitudes towards gender and sexuality.

With regards to is "Islamic culture a rape culture?" as I am not a Muslim I cannot or rather would not feel comfortable commenting on this, especially as I do not understand the religious and societal doctrines it actually seeks to express. Furthermore, I would note that many opinions, especially within "Western Culture" on "Islamic Culture" are skewed and especially biased and generally based on information fed through an uninformed and uneducated lenses that is in it of itself based on general fear mongering. This being said I am of the opinion, as you may have noticed earlier, that all patriarchal societies propagate 'rape culture,' again however I won't go into that as I feel I'd be repeating my self.

In answer to your final question, I would not say that these progressive women's rights advocate groups are wishing to invite 'rapists' rather they are seeking to do their duty in terms of providing humanitarian aid to those that are suffering at the hands of war, famine and disease. I think this is done regardless of culture or societal values, focusing on the value of human life.

On another note, I don't really frequent these forums much but I'd like to maybe make a suggestion. Big topics like this are best discussed with the use of good and popper sources. These sources can be of whatever political, cultural and societal opinion, as long as they are scholarly and properly researched and referenced. In this regard, I would not consider the use of reddit articles or that of especially biased media organisations to be proper sources when building ones argument... just some food for thought is all.

I'm aware that there are probably a few points I didn't look into in your post, but its late here where I live so I think I'm going to call it a night. I eagerly await the responses of others, I'm interested to see where this can of beans goes!

[Cope]

Yes, I am of the OPINION that "Western Culture" as you put it, propagates the act of rape. Why? Because it is by its nature a 'culture' that is built upon the societal misogyny, sexism and especially patriarchal values that seek to undermine and oppress the 'other.' Why is this case you ask? Well I personally would put it down to the fact that the basis of "western culture" is built upon, historically speaking, especially warlike societies that valued strength, masculinity and the concepts of personal property, wealth, power, the idea of ownership and as such under valued if not outright challenged the idea of 'femininity,' identifying it, or rather forging into a concept of weakness. Rape is a direct and physical expression of this, the act of raping another, be that man or woman is by its nature an expression of these very values I have just mentioned. I could also go into the fact that Western Culture is also built off of especially evangelical Protestant and Roman Catholic values which by their nature are also especially patriarchal, however i won't as I feel I'd just be repeating myself.

As far as I'm aware there isn't a single nation in the Western World that was not built on the backs of these violent ideals, though please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As such, I would say yes "Western Culture" is a culture that propagates the pervasive normalization of rape due to societal attitudes towards gender and sexuality.

Scripture expressly forbids rape, a crime it asserts is punishable by death:

"If a man find a damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die" (Deuteronomy 22:25)

It also asserts that the victim of such an offense is blameless:

"Unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: For he found her in the field and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. (Deuteronomy 22:26-27).

Furthermore, the crime is frequently presented as a grave injustice throughout the bible: the brothers of Dinah (Simeon and Levi) murder their sister's violator (Shechem), his father and the men of Shechem's city; Tamar's brother (Absalom) kills the rapist of his sister (Amnon) and incites a rebellion against Amnon's father King David; the unnamed "Concubine" written of in Judges, raped by men from the tribe of Benjamin, is avenged by a coalition of other Israelites.

[Cyclops]

When I studied feminism in the 1990's I thought "rape culture" was a term to describe the specific cultural practices and attitudes around rape, rather than a tag attached to an entire cultural complex I think OP is not using the term correctly.

I discussed this issue with lawyers and police at the time. Before the 1970's and the rise of feminism there were a number of assumptions about rape, eg "nice girls would not accuse a man" so if a woman made a rape claim and there wasn't clear evidence or witnesses then it was assumed she was lying to entrap the man. Likewise if a woman was out alone at night there was an assumption she was 'asking for it" and the crime regarded less seriously than if the woman was married, or a nun etc.

There were assumptions about men too. Any allegation about a priest being a rapist were almost always dismissed out of hand. Australian aborigines were imagined to be uncontrolled in their lust and an allegation about them would be more likely to be believed.

These were common beliefs, not universal of course, but this was the consensus feeling.

The culture around rape has changed and now there's an assumption that allegations need to be tested rather than pre-judged. we've discovered not all claims against priests are the fabrications of some other religious faction, and even the rights of prostitutes are respected. In some US campuses there seems to be a crazy assumption that "all men are potential rapists" etc which is almost as silly as assuming "all women want to be raped".

There are even more variations: some of the older laws against rape seem to be around the theft of another man's rights: the word rape itself comes from the Latin rapere "to plunder" and the crime in Anglo Norman law covered both force sexual intercourse and seduction without the father/legal guardian's consent. From my religious studies I feel some of the Biblical injunctions against rape are about men's rights and others are more about women's rights.

[ioannis76]

It's simply not true that leftists think developed countries are worse than developing countries when it comes to rape culture.

And if you had bothered to read what I wrote, you would know that I didn't make that claim.

There is a group of Western conservatives who think they can criticize developing countries for negative cultural practices when they are equally guilty of those practices. For example after the New Year's Eve attacks in Cologne there were a lot of German conservatives are extremely critical of Muslim immigrants when in fact it is themselves who are personally to blame for the existence of German rape culture.

OMG, such confusion in such a small space.
How are the German conservatives "equally guilty of those practices"? If you were to PROVE such a thing, you would have to demonstrate that these German conservatives were themselves harassing women, which you didn't do. You just threw a vague accusation that these German conservatives are "personally to blame for the existence of "German rape culture". Nowhere did you even prove that there IS such a thing as German rape culture.

The only actual fact in your sentence is the fact that muslims were actually the perpetrators of the attacks.

SJWs: "We need to change our cultural practices that are accepting of rape and discrimination against women"
Conservatives: "Shut up, that's not true"

Later...
Conservatives: "Muslims need to change their cultural practices that are accepting of rape and discrimination against women"

More confusion, it seems. Yes, muslims need to change their cultural practices that are accepting of rape and discrimination against women. And we have seen many such practices, both in their own countries and in the behaviour of immigrants in the West. Which western cultural practices are accepting of rape and discrimination to women?

As far as I'm aware there isn't a single nation in the Western World that was not built on the backs of these violent ideals, though please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as I'm aware, there isn't a life form on Earth that does not exist on the basis of competing with and defeating other life forms. Valuing strength isn't patriarchal or matriarchal, it's survival.
It's interesting that you just threw some vague accusations solely against the west, but completely failed to even examine if and how those "values" exist in the muslim world, because, as you say, "you don't understand the religious and societal doctrines it seeks to express"!!!!! What HYPOCRISY!!!! You apparently failed to see the Saudi Arabian misogynistic practices, where women are not even allowed to drive. You apparently failed to see the similar (wahhabi) ISIS practices where Kurdish women were sold as slaves. You just "haven't studied the religious and societal doctrines this misogyny seeks to express".
Here is an interesting article, one that sheds some light on "progressive" misogyny:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/11/...f-the-appeal/#

I don't think the left's overall position in the west is that "west is rape culture".

Most unfortunately, this is exactly their stance. And bearing the hypocritical attitude they do, they will condemn a western man for "manspreading", but will not condemn a muslim rape gang in Sweden.

[The Gurkhan]

Rape culture is a bizarre and potentially dangerous concept. Ironically perhaps the nice well meaning progressives popularizing it don't know what legacy they invoke when they use the term.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite...9#.WVPVsmjytPY

Not so fast. Wars on rape have been declared before, and often for deeply reactionary reasons, having the effect of harming society rather than helping women. Consider the ‘war on rape’ declared in America’s Deep South in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when the KKK and other racists likewise declared zero tolerance of rape – rape committed by black men, that is – and signaled their determination to wipe out this ‘ultimate transgression’. There was little positive in that crusade.

The aspiring AIDS patient and potential mid life suicide Milo Blackcolopolous doesn't have anything valuable to say on any topic. All he does is ape Alt Right memes and obsessions in an English accent to insecure American deviants. No doubt for tidy a financial reward.

[PointOfViewGun]

More confusion, it seems. Yes, muslims need to change their cultural practices that are accepting of rape and discrimination against women. And we have seen many such practices, both in their own countries and in the behaviour of immigrants in the West. Which western cultural practices are accepting of rape and discrimination to women?

What cultural practice that I have that accepts rape and discrimination of women?

[ioannis76]

The aspiring AIDS patient and potential mid life suicide Milo Blackcolopolous doesn't have anything valuable to say on any topic. All he does is ape Alt Right memes and obsessions in an English accent to insecure American deviants. No doubt for tidy a financial reward.

Well, he must be doing something right, to get this reaction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohMasI4uU-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyEXV5fZTrY

What cultural practice that I have that accepts rape and discrimination of women?

Explain to us, in your own words, why do muslim people need to take MANDATORY CONSENT COURSES?

[PointOfViewGun]

Explain to us, in your own words, why do muslim people need to take MANDATORY CONSENT COURSES?

Well, they don't. This was something I encountered in universities in USA though. They were not courses per se but they were campaigns to teach the general student population that no means no. This campaign, however, targeted the entire student population, not just Muslims, and the cases we've seen were not really coming from the Muslim students either. Date rapes, especially some involving the Greek life, was a considerable issue.

Are you gonna tell me now what cultural practice that I have that accepts rape and discrimination of women?

[ioannis76]

Well in Danemark it's mandatory for muslims:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...trean-men.html

In fact, I got the info from here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Carolina/page3
post 48.
And You wouldn't put Danemark in a list of "hardocore right wing" countries, either.
So, why is Danemark introducing this for muslims?

[antaeus]

I don't understand how this is a left vs right thing?

I'm also not entirely sure that a group that mostly consists of guys (us) can have a balanced conversation about rape culture, seeing as the vast majority of rapes happen to women. But my understanding of rape culture is simply that we live in a society where 'what was she wearing' is a legitimate question in a rape trial.

It has nothing to do with Islam or people from the middle east. That argument is just a random speculation fudging of all sorts of issues poorly together.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well in Danemark it's mandatory for muslims:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...trean-men.html

In fact, I got the info from here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...Carolina/page3
post 48.
And You wouldn't put Danemark in a list of "hardocore right wing" countries, either.
So, why is Danemark introducing this for muslims?

It was also made compulsory in Oxford University last year for all students. Similarly, it was made mandatory in high schools in California as well. My own university's entire Greek life was shut down for a period of time that spanned over years because of such incidents.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what cultural practice that I have that accepts rape and discrimination of women...

[ioannis76]

Good job comparing Universities and High schools with entire COUNTRIES.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_PdogELZI

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what cultural practice that I have that accepts rape and discrimination of women...

Where does one start? From the extreme patriarchal nature of Islam? From the extremely low level of education of islamic countries? From the complete lawlessness in which people in countries like Somalia (a failed state, really) live? Factor in average IQs too:
https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

[PointOfViewGun]

Good job comparing Universities and High schools with entire COUNTRIES.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_PdogELZI

I didn't compare anything. I merely provided you some context...

Where does one start? From the extreme patriarchal nature of Islam? From the extremely low level of education of islamic countries? From the complete lawlessness in which people in countries like Somalia (a failed state, really) live? Factor in average IQs too:
https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

I can't really say I have an extremely patriarchal nature. In fact, I'm quite against it as I fully support equality of men and women. I also got a master's degree so not really low at education either. I have been a law abiding citizen both in USA and Turkey for the entirety of my life. If the IQ tests I've taken in the past are accurate my IQ is higher than any of the averages in that list. So, apart from some of your points having nothing to do with cultural practices, nor relating to rape and discrimination of women, none of them apply to me as a Muslim.

The funny thing is that on your list Greece's average IQ is 92 while Turkey's is 90, a virtual tie if I may. Also, out of the ten countries with the lowest IQ numbers 9 of them are all Christian majority countries. Just saying...

[ioannis76]

I can't really say I have an extremely patriarchal nature. In fact, I'm quite against it as I fully support equality of men and women. I also got a master's degree so not really low at education either. I have been a law abiding citizen both in USA and Turkey for the entirety of my life. If the IQ tests I've taken in the past are accurate my IQ is higher than any of the averages in that list. So, apart from some of your points having nothing to do with cultural practices, nor relating to rape and discrimination of women, none of them apply to me as a Muslim.

There are always exceptions. The point is, out of 100 individuals coming, say, from Somalia, how many are of the cultural, educational etc background you present here?

The funny thing is that on your list Greece's average IQ is 92 while Turkey's is 90, a virtual tie if I may. Also, out of the ten countries with the lowest IQ numbers 9 of them are all Christian majority countries. Just saying...

Not really that strange, as many of the so called "Turks" are islamised Greeks, Armenians, etc. Interestingly enough, according to the chart inhabitants of Mongolia, the original ground of the "pure" Turks score quite high. It would be interesting to check out IQ scores within Turkey, ie, would the inhabitants of western Turkey (the Aegean sea coast) generally score the same as those in central Anatolia?
But creating a "rape culture" is more about education and culture (or lack of it) than purely IQ. If there is a culture that continuously defines relationships as relationships between dominator and dominated, master and slave, then rape would also be "normal" in that culture.
If you view the working conditions of foreign workers in countries like Quatar, the "employer" is legally allowed to keep the worker's passport. Another "stronghold" of slavery is to be found in Mauritania (I think it was abolished officialy back in 81, but never unofficially), so we have two countries that are very distant to each other, but have one thing in common. They are both islamic. If islam in its pure form defines the relationship of people with each other in this way, then it is no wonder that rape is part of the culture that islam brings with it.

[PointOfViewGun]

There are always exceptions. The point is, out of 100 individuals coming, say, from Somalia, how many are of the cultural, educational etc background you present here?

Just because Muslims like me don't conform to your bigoted arguments doesn't mean they're exceptions, nor that they're not Muslims. You make sweeping judgment against all Muslims, then you have to resort to picking a nationality like Somalia to make a point. Meanwhile, you've yet to point out a single cultural practice that accepts rape and discrimination of women.

Not really that strange, as many of the so called "Turks" are islamised Greeks, Armenians, etc. Interestingly enough, according to the chart inhabitants of Mongolia, the original ground of the "pure" Turks score quite high. It would be interesting to check out IQ scores within Turkey, ie, would the inhabitants of western Turkey (the Aegean sea coast) generally score the same as those in central Anatolia?

Then it would either show that Islamized Greeks and real Turks don't really have a big gap in their average IQs or that Islamized Greeks have a much higher IQs than the average Greek in Greece. Either way, it was a stupid point to make all around.

But creating a "rape culture" is more about education and culture (or lack of it) than purely IQ. If there is a culture that continuously defines relationships as relationships between dominator and dominated, master and slave, then rape would also be "normal" in that culture.
If you view the working conditions of foreign workers in countries like Quatar, the "employer" is legally allowed to keep the worker's passport. Another "stronghold" of slavery is to be found in Mauritania (I think it was abolished officialy back in 81, but never unofficially), so we have two countries that are very distant to each other, but have one thing in common. They are both islamic. If islam in its pure form defines the relationship of people with each other in this way, then it is no wonder that rape is part of the culture that islam brings with it.

I love when people's own arguments blow up in their faces. The result is such senseless tangents.

[ioannis76]

Just because Muslims like me don't conform to your bigoted arguments doesn't mean they're exceptions, nor that they're not Muslims. You make sweeping judgment against all Muslims, then you have to resort to picking a nationality like Somalia to make a point. Meanwhile, you've yet to point out a single cultural practice that accepts rape and discrimination of women.

you failed to see the whole text that I wrote,and embarked on an attack on parts of the argument, cut here and there to suit your point's needs.
Like I said, there is ample evidence that the muslim culture is one that favours viewing people's relationships as dominated and dominators, or as slave and master. In such a cultural background, it is apparent that the role of women would be diminished, and they would be viewed as mere objects. Even your own attitude here, when you NEVER admit a mistake that you make, and in your posts you always attempt to twist things around to demonstrate that you are right, despite evidence, as well as your complete and utter INABILITY to cross to the "other side", are prime examples of this. A person who wishes to dominate will never, ever admit a mistake, nor is such a person capable of seeing things from the other side. Therefore, despite your education, and despite your claims that you do not conform to the "rules" described regarding muslim culture, it is apparent that you do, whether consciously or not.

[PointOfViewGun]

you failed to see the whole text that I wrote,and embarked on an attack on parts of the argument, cut here and there to suit your point's needs.

Like I said, there is ample evidence that the muslim culture is one that favours viewing people's relationships as dominated and dominators, or as slave and master. In such a cultural background, it is apparent that the role of women would be diminished, and they would be viewed as mere objects. Even your own attitude here, when you NEVER admit a mistake that you make, and in your posts you always attempt to twist things around to demonstrate that you are right, despite evidence, as well as your complete and utter INABILITY to cross to the "other side", are prime examples of this. A person who wishes to dominate will never, ever admit a mistake, nor is such a person capable of seeing things from the other side. Therefore, despite your education, and despite your claims that you do not conform to the "rules" described regarding muslim culture, it is apparent that you do, whether consciously or not.

You're telling me that I've attacked only parts of your post while ignoring most of what I said. Ironic. What I addressed previously was with the context of you claiming that cultural practices that I have accepts rape and discrimination of women. You failed to provide a single substance to back this assertion. Since you failed to provide the slightest evidence you're going on a tangent that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Your earlier assertion that my cultural practices accepts rape and discrimination of women is a very insulting sweeping judgment. You shouldn't make such assertions if you're unable to back them up properly.