There are 10 Muslim nations with a national law stating that anyone who stops being Muslim shall be executed. Islam very much looks like a fascist hate group

[Fourteen]

There are several more Muslim nations with a national law decreeing that anyone who leaves Islam shall face life imprisonment. from Wikipedia:

The following countries have criminal statutes that forbid apostasy :
(Note that apostasy from other religions to Islam is legal in all countries indicated below)

• Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, though the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions)^[12]
• Brunei – per recently enacted Sharia law, Section 112(1) of the Brunei Penal Code states that a Muslim who declares himself non-Muslim commits a crime that is punishable with death, or with up to 30 year imprisonment, depending on the type of evidence. However, if the accused has recanted his conversion, he may be acquitted of the crime of apostasy.^[13]
• Comoros^[14]
• Iran – not in the Penal Code.^[15]
• Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy^[16][17][18]
• Kuwait – Apostasy is not illegal in Kuwait,^[19][20][21] although apostasy is penalized in family courts for Muslims.^[19][20] For Muslims, apostasy in family court can result in loss of child custody, inheritance rights and normally annulment if married to a Muslim.^[19][20]
• Malaysia – illegal in five of thirteen states (fines) if they do not get conversion permission from Sharia court.^[22]
• Maldives^[14]- illegal for Muslim nationals (loss of citizenship).^[23][24] Illegal to proselytise for religions other than Islam.
• Mauritania – illegal (death penalty if still apostate after 3 days)^[25]
• Morocco – not illegal, but official Islamic council decreed apostates should be put to death.^[26] Illegal to proselytise for religions other than Islam (six months to three years imprisonment)^[27]
• Oman – illegal (prison) according to Article 209 of Oman penal code, and denies child custody rights under Article 32 of Personal Status Law^[26]
• Qatar – illegal (death penalty)^[26]
• Saudi Arabia – illegal (flogging, imprisonment and death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)^[18][28]
• Somalia – illegal (death penalty)^[29][30]
• Sudan – illegal (death penalty)^[31]
• Syria^[14]
• United Arab Emirates – illegal (3 years' imprisonment, death penalty)^[26][32]
• Yemen – illegal (death penalty)^[26][30]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy

Some muslim countries also enact the death penalty for anyone - muslim or not - who criticises Islam.


Thread moved to Ethos, Mones et Monastica, where religious matters are discussed.~Abdülmecid I

[Love Mountain]

Extremist Islamic law is far right. So yeah, why wouldn't they look like a fascist hate group? In fact, I once called the structure of Iranian Government to a fascist hellhole.

[PointOfViewGun]

And there are over 50 Muslim-majority states in the world. You do the math, Fourteen Words...

[Infidel144]

Extremist Islamic law[...]

What are some extremist Islamic laws?

[Fourteen]

And there are over 50 Muslim-majority states in the world. You do the math, Fourteen Words...

By my math(s) 23 of those 50 states have national laws giving the death penalty or a very lengthy prison sentence for anyone either leaving islam or criticising Islam, or both.

You must admit that is more than enough to legitimately describe Islam as having a very strong fascist nature. Certainly Islam is the most fascist mainstream ideology in the world today.

[Sar1n]

And there are over 50 Muslim-majority states in the world. You do the math, Fourteen Words...

How many secular states prohibit religions? How many non-muslim states have any kind of enforced state religion?

[bigdaddy1204]

Woopee, another thread full of Muslim-bashing.

I was going to point out to you the mistaken assumption you made with this thread title, but then I realised there are more than one. In fact, there are so many, I hardly even know where to begin.

1: assuming that the state policy of Middle Eastern countries is the same thing as Islam the religion.
2: assuming that Islam is unified (a "fascist hate group", as you described). It would be more correct to describe a broad range of different belief systems, with significant similarities and significant differences between them. Sunni, Shia, Salafist, Sufi, Ibadi, Ismaili, etc. are completely different to each other and little is achieved by lumping them all together (apart from irritating people like me that are familiar with the differences)
3: Your list is very misleading, as there are several countries (Morocco, Iran, Kuwait, Syria) which do not, in fact, have the death penalty for apostasy. Not only that, but the constitution of the Syrian Arab Republic guarantees freedom of religion (and that's just one example).
4: Assuming that you can label something as enormously complex as Islam with a narrow label. A superficial analysis of criminal law, which is itself deeply flawed, is not a promising start.

Those are a few points for starters. I also note that a number of key Muslim countries are not on the list at all - Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, to name a few. I wonder why that is. (hint: because it doesn't support your argument, which was created by cherry-picking countries that suit your agenda while ignoring those that don't). I also note that it was Europe that gave the world fascism, not the Muslim world. I recommend you to read some history, specifically about colonialism and the legacy of British, French and USA atrocities in the Middle East over the last 150 years. It seems to me that the shoe is very much on the other foot.

[Fourteen]

Mistake one: assuming that the state policy of Middle Eastern countries is the same thing as Islam the religion.).

The authority for the laws forbidding leaving Islam (apostasy) or criticising islam (blasphemy) comes directly from the Koran and the hadiths. one example:

“Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” — Bukhari 9.84.57 ‘baddala deenahu, faqtuhulu’

http://sheikyermami.com/apostasy-who...gion-kill-him/

Mistake two: assuming that Islam is unified (a "fascist hate group", as you described). It would be more correct to describe a broad range of different belief systems, with significant similarities and significant differences between them and substantial disagreement on virtually every aspect of correct approach, such that different "Islams" exist and the ones at opposite ends of the spectrum are completely different to each other.

I did not claim that the totality of Islam is a fascist death cult. I am simply pointing out the undeniable evidence suggesting that fascism is a very strong element within Islam.

Mistake three: Your list is very misleading, as there are several countries (Morocco, Iran, Kuwait, Syria) which do not, in fact, have the death penalty for apostasy. Not only that, but the constitution of the Syrian Arab Republic guarantees freedom of religion (and that's just one example)

In the title I gave the figure of 10 muslim countries with the death penalty for leaving Islam, but if you look again you will see there are more than 10 nations on the list taken from Wikipedia. You can count beyond ten, can't you Bigdaddy? Take off your socks and use your toes if needed.
.

Mistake four: Assuming that you can label something as enormously complex as Islam with a narrow label. A superficial analysis of criminal law, which is itself deeply flawed, is not a promising start.)

When islam takes control of a country it implements muslim law. I simply gave examples of the kind of laws they sometimes introduce when given the chance to do so, and showed they are clearly fascist in nature.

Those are a few points for starters. I also note that a number of key Muslim countries are not on the list at all - Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, to name a few. I wonder why that is. (hint: because it doesn't support your argument, which was created by cherry-picking countries that suit your agenda while ignoring those that don't).

Cherry-picked? You will notice that Pakistan is not on the list. I will leave it to you to look into what kind of Islamic law they have in that place. Needless to say, it will not support your argument.

And once again, I did not create the list, it was copy pasted directly from Wikipedia.

[bigdaddy1204]

@Fourteen Words: I remember about ten or twelve years ago, when Wikipedia was new, the professors at university warned us history students that it is not a valid source. At the time, I was an editor on Wikipedia and I recall thinking their perspective was out of date. In some ways, it was.

Reflecting on it from 2017 however, I've come to realise they were right. Or more specifically, there was some truth to what they said; articles on Islam suffer from serious problems, bias, incorrect or misleading information, weight given to one perspective (usually hostile to islam) while none at all given to other points of view. The thing is, Wikipedia is a majoritarian system in the sense that its content simply reflects the demographic that provides the majority of its content; mostly white westerners who speak English and have no academic background in Islam nor direct experience of Muslims. There are other aspects as well; a lot of content comes from online Wahhabi groups tied to Saudi Arabia. Online articles about Islam are basically a dystopian wild west full of spurious claims, hysteria, fanaticism, minority viewpoints and advocacy groups with an agenda.

For a balanced and academically rigorous understanding of the subject, one has to go offline and turn to the old fashioned way: books. Or meet people face to face and, you know, talk to people. There are plenty of excellent books on the topic and I'm happy to recommend a few. Sadakat Kadri's a Journey through Sharia law is as good a place as any to begin. Happy reading

[dogukan]

I am an anti-Islam left-winger.

The fight against radicalism will begin when you are honest about your intentions.
Currently people simply use the Muslim discrimination card to promote your fascist-racist ideas.

There are hundreds of millions muslims in the world. The fight against Islam does not go through your fascist means. I am all for eradication of religions, especially Islam which I was born into.
You have to understand that Islamists ARE RIGHT-WINGERS themselves if you want a rightvsleft fight.

[Gäiten]

You have to understand that Islamists ARE RIGHT-WINGERS themselves if you want a rightvsleft fight.

Well, then you have a queer bond between Muslims and Left-Wingers who excuse anything what Muslims do and support everything what Muslims demand.
Right Wingers as you call them are rather very critical about Muslims/Islam.

[dogukan]

Well, then you have a queer bond between Muslims and Left-Wingers who excuse anything what Muslims do and support everything what Muslims demand.
Right Wingers as you call them are rather very critical about Muslims/Islam.

Only in the "west" where muslims are immigrants. And they arent having this attitude out of their love for islam.

[PointOfViewGun]

By my math(s) 23 of those 50 states have national laws giving the death penalty or a very lengthy prison sentence for anyone either leaving islam or criticising Islam, or both.

You must admit that is more than enough to legitimately describe Islam as having a very strong fascist nature. Certainly Islam is the most fascist mainstream ideology in the world today.

23 now? Nice attempt to move the goal post from having death penalty against apostasy to having general laws against it. That is still less than half of the Muslim majority states. This only tells us that there are some Muslim majority states with such fascist elements.

Given that Quran doesn't have a punishment for apostasy, and upholds freedom of choice when it comes to believing in Allah, I can't admit in any way that Islam has a very strong fascist nature when it comes to this subject as it would be outright false.

How many secular states prohibit religions? How many non-muslim states have any kind of enforced state religion?

Why don't you tell us? While at it tell us it's relevance as well.

Well, then you have a queer bond between Muslims and Left-Wingers who excuse anything what Muslims do and support everything what Muslims demand.
Right Wingers as you call them are rather very critical about Muslims/Islam.

They don't really do that though.

[Cookiegod]

I agree with bigdaddy.
It isn't illegal in Syria. The "bloody regime" actually cares about freedom of religion. It's the "free" part of Syria where you'll get killed for it. But life is cheap there anyways.
Same would go for Libya which can't be seen on your list.

Other than that, Islam as a religion might be quite hateful and belligerent, but most muslims are not. They want to be able to live their lives freely just like you and I.
However, those believing in it should be better at distancing themselves from extremists and reporting them to authorities (when in Western countries). A thing they sadly don't do as often as they should.

One should not forget that Wahhabism was born out of the profound impression given by protestant missionaries in 18th century Arabia, and there are significant similarities between wahabi Islam and 16th century protestantism (which also did everything they could to destroy pictures and promulgate a "clean" version of Christianity).
The fact that radical Islam has become so strong in the muslim world is also inseparably connected to western foreign policy.
As seculars favoured socialism and an independent, noncolonial world, the West has brought the wahabi Saudis to power in the 1920s, supported the muslim brotherhood since the 1950s, the mujahedeen in Afghanistan since the 1980s, the Caucasus extremists since the 1990s, and the radical Islamists of the worst kind in Libya and Syria since 2011 at the latest.

Even right now, as we speak, the IDF is giving close air support to an offensive carried out by al-Nusra and its affiliates against the SAA in al baath city near the golan heights.

[Gäiten]

Only in the "west" where muslims are immigrants. And they arent having this attitude out of their love for islam.

Islam is a radical ideology where neither the human as Individuum nor a liberal-democratic Society are valued. Neither do left-wingers.
Both Islam and Left Wingers hate the Western Way of Life and want to end it. Brothers-in-arms in this goal they are.

[dogukan]

Islam is a radical ideology where neither the human as Individuum nor a liberal-democratic Society are valued.

Pretty much, but it isn't a unified doctrine.

left Wingers hate the Western Way of Life

Is this the new level of debating between left and right wing nowadays?

[Infidel144]

Given that Quran doesn't have a punishment for apostasy, and upholds freedom of choice when it comes to believing in Allah, I can't admit in any way that Islam has a very strong fascist nature when it comes to this subject as it would be outright false.

For those interested, note that the 'freedom of choice' includes, for 'pagans', death unless they become muslim; and for jews and christians, death unless they show submission to muslim authority by paying the jizya, with an alternative being to become muslim.
See here for some discussion:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lamic-theology

[bigdaddy1204]

I am an anti-Islam left-winger.

The fight against radicalism will begin when you are honest about your intentions.
Currently people simply use the Muslim discrimination card to promote your fascist-racist ideas.

There are hundreds of millions muslims in the world. The fight against Islam does not go through your fascist means. I am all for eradication of religions, especially Islam which I was born into.
You have to understand that Islamists ARE RIGHT-WINGERS themselves if you want a rightvsleft fight.

Dogukan my friend, I have great sympathy for you personally and your situation. I remember that you have suffered directly from the Daesh enemies who made a terrorist attack in which your friends were hurt. I also know that the Kurdish people have been attacked and suffer terribly under Erdogan and his so-called Islamic faction (which is really a gang of thieves, liars and tyrants).

I totally understand why you don't like islam. Because the ISIS and the erdogan anti-intellectual right wingers have turned it into a type of crime against humanity in your area. It has become associated with people who are enemies of truth and freedom.

But you have to remember that these people don't represent all of us. Anatolia has a long tradition of Sufism which is much closer to the original spirit of peace, love and harmony which I believe in. I have a lot of respect for the people of Kurdistan and believe you should be free to speak your own language in your own land (of course!) And i admire the heroic struggle against ISIS, our common enemy. I'm not expert in Kurdish but I hope you can get the meaning:

"Dast-e shoma dard nakoneh".

For me Islam and left wing ideas are perfectly compatible. In fact I see Islam as inherently left wing, with its concern for the poor, for charity and social justice. I would describe myself as left wing; I am sure we have many ideas in common.

[Prodromos]

Yeah yeah hundreds of millions of people face execution for apostasy or blasphemy, but can you guys just chill with the Islamophobia for a second? Geez.

[swabian]

The threshold of tolerance in favour of Muslims is nearly mindblowing. They seem to have developed an acute culture of whining, and manipulating the surrounding powers they openly despise at the same time. The ploy is so in-your-face obvious, that the averagely naive "good guy" with a "sense of justice" is won over, because they think they have found a simple case whereby they can show off their (not really pronounced) skills of critical thinking or something.