Kingdom of Georgia (info and units)

[Lifthrasir]

No news from umbracatervae777.
Regarding the map for this area, I think I'm done more or less. We might just adjust slightly the settlements size in the East. I'll see if I can find the time to work on the roster as well but don't expect any progress on that side witin a short term period. Real life keeps me very busy these days.

[umbracatervae777]

Sorry for being inactive

For using a banner set from FA mod, we can just write "Ferrum Aeternum Team" for credits, and recently i drew a banners of Armenia and Shirvan which is not available on FA banner set.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I still make it black and white because i don't know what color for each banners.

[Khevsur]

this mod is dead ?

[j.a.luna]

this mod is dead ?

Mmm no, only no news for now...

[Lifthrasir]

No it isn't. Map changes will be implemented in the next release. Roster will come later

[Tarsman of Ghor]

Cant wait for it any more))))))

[Khevsur]

my paint georgian nobleman - aznauri 12-13 century

[Khevsur]

my paint . Eastern Georgian Highlander Warrior - Mtieli . 12-13 century

[Gigantus]

nice art work

[paleologos]

Khevsur, you should be posting this artwork in you own thread in the The Graphics Workshop forum.

[Lifthrasir]

I see. I'm sick during a couple of days and you're double crossing me Pal
But I agree. You should definitively open a thread in the Graphic Workshop to show your artwork

[umbracatervae777]

Besides that, i see your improvement going well

[paleologos]

I see. I'm sick during a couple of days and you're double crossing me Pal

Why "double crossing"?
Aren't you in charge of the Graphics Workshop?
You should be thanking me for looking after your interests in your absence.

[Khevsur]

Georgian Knight - Aznauri . 12-13 century . my paint

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

If I may add my two pennies here, I read higher up that toro-something meant oven-bearers in Georgian. The equivalent Byzantine cavalry was also called oven-bearers - clibaniphori or clibanarii. The reason for this was that their cuirass and assorted shoulder and loin guards that they wore on top of their mail armour was called a clibanion, an oven. My guess is that it would get uncomfortable to wear all this armour on campaign, especially in the summer heat. How I interpret the Byzantine heavy cavalry and the Georgian equivalent is that they did not have the charge of western knights because probably they were a little more heavily armoured and had cataphract horses plus they did not have the same type of training and skill on charge. Of course they could charge but not as effectively, maybe a charge around 5-6. They should tire easily because of their heavy armour. They should be affected by a large negative modifier in heat. They should perhaps be a little slow in the EDU compared to other heavy horsemen. I think all that would go some way towards buffing these heavy units. It is not as if they were unbeatable in battle, just they favoured good protection over agility, speed, charge skill and endurance. It seems right for a unit such as bodyguards that were not really intended to go into battle except under desperate circumstances.

The Aznauri above looks like a Byzantine cataphract without the final layer of gambeson (cabbadion) which was probably not worn in summer anyway as it would have made the armour completely unbearable in the heat. I would advise that this type of heavy cataphract armour should be reserved for lumbering bodyguards and no other cavalry.

[Lifthrasir]

Thanks for your input
I read somewhere that the chainmail could work as a temperature regulator somehow, avoiding the body to be "overheated". Reading your post, I guess that it wasn't enough to compensate the extra heat produced by the gambeson. Am I having the rfight understanding,

[Khevsur]

Georgian cavalry was very heavy."Aznauri" was a Feudal Class. Had many lands,had peasants. They had money Buys heavy armor. They had horsemen servants- "Msakhuri"


Georgian cavalry was shock cavalry. They had big spears. was powerful charge


about georgian cavalry

https://www.mediafire.com/file/2biaj...k_Combat_i.pdf

[WeekendGeneral]

Hi Khevsur,

Your artwork continues to be lovely I'm very jealous of your skill.
Tsurtsumia in the article you shared argues that Georgian troops would have use the couched lance technique (I've previously raised some concerns with that but that is neither here nor there). Which he uses as core for his argument that the Georgian medieval army was more western than eastern, he also argues that their is reasonable evidence that Georgia either invented or were one of the first countries to make use of the technique outside of Europe. Part of that evidence is refuting that Byzantine and Muslim heavy cavalry fighting in a Kataphraktoi (which your Knight is depicted very similar to) fought with primarily mace and close combat weapons rather than lance. Additionally Tsurtsumia states in his paper HORSE ARMOUR IN MEDIEVAL GEORGIA "Research into horse armour in Georgia comes across many obstacles. In the first place note should be taken of the non-existence of archaeological specimens, and generally of any material evidences. Matters are complicated further by the absence of a full-valued representations of horse armour; this may be accounted for by the tradition established in Orthodox iconography, which did not reflect an armoured horse from the beginning." pp.100. That's not to say that your depiction is incorrect we just need more diverse sources. Which after much investigation isn't easy to attain.

Also Khevsur I've been reading the Tiblisis Forum on total war for some info on the Georgian roster and i've found this quote in english:
"Initially, the Georgian army consisted of the masses of free yeomen-warriors (eri), and each member, capable of active participation in military operations, was to take part in the campaigns. But in the course of history, “eri” underwent a social differentiation, and in tune with the increasing process of feudalizing, the participation in military campaigns and marches became a matter of social privilege of a military-administrative rank – of “aznaurs” (“azats”, i.e. free) and servants (ministerialitet). According to the documents of special category, at an early stage of feudalism, the army (lashkari) of the kingdom of Kartli, consisted of: 1.Tadzreulis (palace camp) – a regiment of heavily armed palace cavalry, under the leadership of a “spaspeti”; 2. A country (communal) regiment, under the leadership of “eristavis” (“eri-heads”), that consisted of noblemen-cavalrymen, from the patrimonial-servicemen aristocracy – and also, of common yeomen-soldiers from plains, and of highlanders, organized according to their clans, who took part in campaigns as the infantry (“mkvirtzkhlni” – the “swifts”); 3. “Nijadi”, or “hired” – usually, Caucasian highlanders. The separate parts (“sadroshoebi” - “regiments under the banner”) of the regiments from the valleys and plains were under the supervision of spasalari, atasistavi, asistavi and atistavi. Their commander-in-chief was a king or a spaspeti – “the person next to the king”, erismtavari… The social constitution of the army was reflected in arms and ammunition: the nobility wore shirts of mail or hauberks with metal protectors for neck and nose, leg- and arm-protectors, metal belts and had arms for self-defense and for the attack of bronze and iron, a long pick (horoli), chuglugi (an ax-pick), a shield, bows and arrows, “gurzi” and “lakhti” - various maces, and knifes. The horses of noblemen were protected with the horse “mail-shirts”, but for the infantry, the shirts of mail were not obligatory, they could use a light type of protective ammunition, but their arms included: a spear or a short lance, bows and arrows, slingshots, knives and skin-covered shields.

At the period of advanced feudalism, the evolution of lashkari reached its final form, and serving in it was obligatory for landlords, servicemen and free mountaineers. As for the peasantry, they took part in military campaigns only in the cases of war with the foreign invaders, but they were not required to serve in campaign-hunts (military service) (101, p.481).

The greatest role in the creation of the organized military force, belongs to King David IV the Builder. It is completely his achievement – the creation of a huge military machine, which provided the country with the real force needed, which transformed Georgia into one of the strongest states of the Asia Minor, and the Georgians under the royal flag of Gorgasal-Davitiani, amazingly heightened their ethnic and political authority, and the fame of the nation as “militant and powerful people” became almost world-wide.

In the reign of David IV, a post of amirspasalari (minister of military affaires) was introduced, the number of noblemen in the regiments of tadzreuli and servicemen was increased, a royal guard (monaspa) of 5 thousand warriors was established, and an army of Kivchagis was founded with 40 thousand soldiers, also a so-called “shore system” was created, and strong discipline in the army became of paramount importance.
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During 100-year-long of wars with Turk-Seljuks, King David and his heirs (Demetre I, Giorgi III, Queen Tamar), “the Georgians worked out a flexible military organization, fitting to the existing social and economic structure, and managed to annihilate the military superiority of the enemy – derived from their social and economic structure; it also ensured the safety of Georgian borders from the attacks of marauding enemies, and at the same time, provided the possibility of offensive battles on the enemies’ territory – to the extent that the military organization of Turkish nomads failed against it. The structure of the Georgian organization implied: 1. The state army, consisting of the representative regiments of various regions of Georgia – from the centralized Saeristavo and the royal domain; 2. “Darbasis eri” – “the Palace Force”, or Tadzreulis (the Templars) - a regular army/regiment of the court noblemen or low social rank soldiers, usually of a limited number, yet, compiled of the best-skilled warriors; 3. Regiments at the court from the vassal states. It required ten days to get the whole army ready” (92, p.211). When discussing the situation during the reign of Queen Tamar, specially should be mentioned a so-called “monapireta” institution, which signifies a special role of bordering bodies and units, i.e. “the rangers“. A monapire was of the same type as an eristavis, but of the border-line of the country and state. Their basic duty was the scouting of the neighbouring region. They were in charge of the military force of the corresponding country, defending their own strip of land from the pillage of enemies, and at the same time, did not let the neighbouring country lead a quiet life on their territory… At the end of the XII century, the royal court of Georgia had 6-7 of this type of border centers, where the functions of the rangers were carried out by devoted noblemen and military and political officials of Queen Tamar: Grigolisdze and Makhatlisdze – in the regions of Hereti and Kambechani, Zakharia – in the region of Gagi, Zakharia and Ivane Mkhargrdzeli – in Tashir-Zorakert, Sargis Tmogveli and Shalva Toreli – in Javakheti, Kuarkuare – Spasalari of Samtskhe – Jakeli – in Artaani, Zakharia Aspanisdze – in Panaskerti” (92, p.212).

Definitely, this system of military organization makes the topic of Prince Vakhushti Bagrationi’s particular explanation: “And the armies had their rules and order: the kings had their guard, considering the conditions and abilities, as a strong and reliable body, corresponding to the old tradition of kings – Mirian and Davit Aghmashenebeli, a thousand for the permanent guard, but their salary did not come from the treasury, because the way of their reward was different. And other regiments were under the supervision of the state and eristavis, who were in charge of summoning the regiments at times of war and danger” (23, p.18).

Although the great scholar did not mention the various institutions of military structure, the lack cannot affect the creation of a proper idea about all the forms of a Georgian military forces and the military organization of the country in general (1.Various types of regiments, compiled of the non-free servicemen, 2. Royal guard, 3. Hired army, 4. Communal regiments, 5. Border defenders or rangers (see page 193).

This excerpt shows that in the Golden Age of the united monarchy of Georgia, the country was divided into 4 major sadroshos: 1. avant-garde (of southern Georgia), 2. right flank (western Georgia), 3. left flank (eastern Georgia – Hereti-Kakheti), and 4. Royal (central – Shida Kartli), accompanied by a hired army – Roki spa. These major sadroshos consisted of smaller units of Saeristavo. As a commander of his territorial regiment, an eristavi was in charge of a special banner. The Georgian amirspasalari – commander-in-chief was the head of 12 droshas, each of them consisting of 1000 soldiers… The joint action of all regiments took place only in exceptional cases of danger or some decisive battle… But mostly the battle was started by the avant-garde and ended by the king’s sadrosho (100, p.623-624).

Comparing Vakhushti’s note on the division of entire Iveria into four major sadroshos – to the documents describing the wars of the XII-XIII centuries, and the military units of the Georgian army, and the personalities of that period, we shall learn that the reconstruction of military order and constituent parts of the army, is not at all a complex problem. The analysis of those sources reveals that at the period of country’s political strength, the army of the state consisted of following 6 major units:

1. Avant-garde, or the regiment of metsinave sadrosho (i.e.. of southern Georgia – Meskheti and Kvemo Kartli), uniting Toreli, Meskhs, Javakhi, Klarjis, Shavshes, Taos, Kolaes, Artaanes;

2. Right flank attacking regiment (western Georgia sadrosho) with Abkhazes, Jickes, Svans, Megrels, Guruls, Rachvels, Margveli;

3. Left flank sadrosho of Kakheti and Hereti, and the highlanders of Kakheti;

4. Rearguard (meukaneni), or the Royal banner holders – a sadrosho of Shida Kartli and the Kartli highlanders;

5. Monaspani (the Royal Guard) and Tadzreulis (Court servicemen regiment);

6. Roki spani, or mercenaries, compiled of the Transcaucasians (Ossetians, Kiphchaghis, Durdzuks and others).

We can sum up the issue with the point that at the “Golden Period” of the Georgian statehood, the problem of military organization and the art of military wisdom were brought to the highest level – with following brilliant results. During the period of 106 years, the Georgian army won four great victories over the Seljuk Turks in the battles of Ertsukhi (1104), Didgori (1121), Shamkori (1195) and Basiani (1205), to the point that in 1210, the royal regiment of Queen Tamar carried out a long convoy to Iran, and returned safely to their homeland with great spoils. "

Do you know where this is from? Or What source that is? Is this Tsurtsumia? It explains my confusion with the Tadzreulis and confirms the regimental and army structure that you have mentioned previously.

Also, I'd would like to thank both you and the many Georgians there that are so passionate in sharing this information I know how difficult and frustrating it is to discuss in a language that you are not strong in.

[WeekendGeneral]

I found this also on the Total War Tiblisis Forum, its a recommendation for the inclusion of the Georgian Army in medieval total war realism mod. This is a google translate job.

"The Georgian army mobilized in a unified march consisted of several species, which in turn referred to subdivisions, ie in the language of the subdivisions. The most combatant subdivisions were the royal state, or the state's regular army, which kept the state treasury and obeying the king directly (although the king was commander-in-chief at the same time). At the end of the day, there were at least 12 people, and all of them were obliged to take 1000 men from their shores by the order of the king. At least one hundred thousand men, Spasalari was headed on one flank, and Amirpasalari was the same Oh, and the minister was acting on behalf of the king as well as the gene. HQ functions too. The subsequent army was the men's army, which consisted of regular ministries and subordinated to the border of the border that was protected by the state of the border from the state.
Then the army of the Georgian army included foreign troops, namely the troops collected in the conquered countries, which were mainly paid to the king of Georgia, and finally in the Georgian army, we also see the royal spas, ie hired warriors (alans, or the same Ossetians, the Russians, the Catholic French, The same is true of European warriors and heroes Vikingebsa even months, which in Georgia Vanag called Byzantine influence). Each of these troops is made up of the common types of juniot, as well as the different types of different types of individual army.

For the game I tried to make an optimal list of all the unique universe in the army, some of the warriors can be found only in a particular geographical location, such as the Mtiulebi-Georgian Hillmean can be brought out only in Kakheti province, Telavi (if you enter this region) If it was then the capital of Georgia I (be it in Tbilisi, Kutaisi), if only in the Georgia customers gamble players and conquer other regions, arasakartvelosas, in the region, for example in Palestine will not be able to train or breeding finches, etc.

I'll tell you about this list, if you remember that I sent the message to B Kazantum: For the Kingdom of Georgia in the Tolar Gorge, it is almost the same, here is my variant in English titles, parentheses indicate the impacts of attack and protection of each Union:

I. Infantry Troops:

1. Lashqari - People's Army, or where peasants are included Volunteers. (at 5, def. 6)

2. Spearmen - light browns, leather armor, round wooden shield and spear (at 7, def 9)

3. Kartlian Pikeman - The heavily armed Kartli spears, chain armor, chain shaft (hat), medium sized oval metal shield and long spear, also have big daggers, the same short sword (at 10, def. 15). These warriors were mainly in the Kartli ravine (where the warriors included 1000 warriors, spasetti Spaspeti) assembled by the king's orders by the king. Disciplined and durable warriors were mainly fighters of the front line, as well as against the cavalry and some infantry soldiers.

4. Georgian Wariors - Georgian Warriors (at 11. Def.19)

5. Metsikhovne or Fort Guard, the livestock, the regular subordinate army, which consisted of servicemen (menopai) and put them in the conquered cities. Metal tube armor, metal helmet, round shield, sword and spear. High morale, well disciplined. They used to shoot the shaft before they could go to hand. (at 12. Def. 22)

5. Mtiul's - Georgian Hillmean, Mtatsminda can be brought out only in Georgia (map of Georgia consists of two initial provinces, this is Kartli and Abkhazia), namely in Kartli. Sword, chain shirt and helmet, round small shield, bow. Breeding can be relatively small, only if you have a big brew in the city. The best, unique warriors, great masters of fights. They obeyed the king during the battle. (at 19, def. 9).

II. Cavalry

1. Horse Archers - Horse Archers (at 6. Def 8, Shooting 9)

2. Kipchaks - Kychschka army, regular royal army, the main duty was to fight against the weakened enemy and get rid of the fugitive enemy. They were riding horses, hungry and sword. (at 14, def. 8, shooting 14)

3. Aznaur's - Aznaurs, a light cavalry. Sword, shield, leather armor and chain helmet (at 10, Def.

4. Eristav's - Eristavi, or Nobles, heavy cavalry, chain shirt, metal helmet, metal oval shield and long spear. (at 12, Def .17)

5. Samefo Spa or Royal Cavalery, a regularly trained and disciplined heavy cavalry who could have the same success of the enemy infantry line through long speeds and destroy the cavalry. Sword, spear, large metal shield, metal armor and iron helmet. (at 14, Def. 20).

6. General Guard, Guardian or Guardian is the Guardian's Guardian whose duty is to protect Commander. Heavily eaten. (at 12, def. 14), will be trained in small quantities.

7. Rokis Spa, the Vassals, countries are conquered vassal troops, trained in the game, while Georgia and other regions daitsqrobs did, and breeding can only be conquered regions and not in Georgia. Lightly armed troops, reserve forces. Sword and round shield, light armor chain (at. 10, def, 12).

III.Shooter units

1. Archers - Archers (at. 5, def. 7 , shooting 7)

2. Lazian's Archers of - Laz archers, bow and dagger (at. 7, def. 9 , shooting 12)

3. Archers of Fortnes, fortress archers, long bow, a dagger and a round shield, helmet and chain shirt (at. 9, def. 11 , shooting 14)"

[Lifthrasir]

Interesting reading
Is it correct to think that the Georgian roster is a kind of mix of tribal and feudal/professional troops? Something in terms of organisation roughtly similar to what can be seen in Scotland with the Highlands (with a tribal system somehow represented by the clans) and the Lowlands (with a pure feudal system)? My remark is just about the principle. Of course, I'm aware that both factions have their own specificities