England's secret Muslim king: John of England, 1199 to 1216

[KEA]

The idea that a European king of the Middle Ages plans on converting to anything non-Christian is as plausible as Saudi Arabia becoming Catholic next week. What would had happened would have been a full scale crusade against England with about 100% of the English knighthood the first to take the Cross.

[Cyclops]

The idea that a European king of the Middle Ages plans on converting to anything non-Christian is as plausible as Saudi Arabia becoming Catholic next week.

Yep, that's about the size of it.

What would had happened would have been a full scale crusade against England with about 100% of the English knighthood the first to take the Cross.

Yes there was still a hunger to take the cross, as the fifth and sixth crusades demonstrate, and the political capital to be made in reconverting a "fallen" king would have been immense. England would have been dogpiled from about five different directions.

What would had happened would have been a full scale crusade against England with about 100% of the English knighthood the first to take the Cross.

John wasn't that unpopular, I'm sure he had some loyal retainers and if (quite impossibly) he chose to convert there would have been a couple of sympathy conversions so he wouldn't be alone on the pyre. Lets say 99.92% of English knighthood.

There'd be no help for Yahya Malik if he were to convert in the early 13th century: in Iberia the Almohads were very much on the back foot, and the Ayyubids were too far away and rent by uprisings (that allowed Frederick II to negotiate his was to victory in the Sixth crusade). A conversion to Islam in that period conferred no strategic benefits for a European monarch.

John would have had as much to gain by becoming a worshipper of Itzamna and importing chocolate and syphilis from Central America to weaken his foes and assert his authority. Would've had to discover the Americas first though.

[Roma_Victrix]

When England became Protestant during the course of the 16th century and rejected the papacy, it did so on the back of the Protestant Reformation that was already brewing and forming in continental Europe. Even though these people were all Christians, it still created an enormous amount of conflict that lasted at least until the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. Look what the papacy did in reaction to the Cathars of France, launching the Albigensian Crusade to crush them during the early 13th century. One could probably imagine something similar if not more severe if a king of England became a Muslim convert and encouraged his subjects to follow suit.

That's just how people rolled back then. Even the Buddhists were in on the action, seeing how several Chinese emperors throughout history (although witnessing periods of harsh persecution of Buddhism) touted themselves as holy warriors who defended the faith. Case in point: Emperor Wu of Liang (r. 502-549 AD), who styled himself as a "Bodhisattva" emperor. Buddhism would butt heads with Confucianism and traditional beliefs regarding ancestor worship, though, in both China and Korea, although it had almost no friction with Shintoism in Japan.

Not every faith is the same, though. I know that Hindus have done violent actions in the name of their faith sporadically throughout the ages and in modern times (e.g. the "Saffron terror"), but unlike the Abrahamic faiths, I don't think there is any similar practice in Hinduism for launching a jihad or a crusade. In fact, Hindu extremism seems to be more of a modern phenomenon connected to the global movement of nationalism more generally (especially now that Pakistan and India are frequently at odds). The same can be said for Sikhism, despite their reputation for brandishing daggers, yet in modern times there have been some militant Sikh terrorist groups (i.e. Khalistan movement), and the assassination of Indira Gandhi was carried out by Sikh bodyguards in retaliation for damaging a Sikh shrine in a military operation.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Islam is a stretch though. Wouldn't his subjects just kill him? I don't think that anyone else would convert.

[Condottiere 40K]

Then the Pope invites the Scots to burn down Newcastle and invade Wembley.

[Cyclops]

Then the Pope invites the Scots to burn down Newcastle and invade Wembley.

I though it was King Harry who liked a bit of Wembley.

[fkizz]

Secretly a muslim? That's propaganda.

Considering converting to islam? Rigged question. Kings and Clerics would have to study Islam even if for sake of geopolitics, but while living sheltered lives. So there is a lot of element for imagination and wondering how this imaginary religions would be. Kinda like how Buddhism is re-structured in the West.

Even Nietzsche in the Anti-Christ gives a big praise to Islam after rejecting Christianism, albeit considering Hinduism superior. Was later found out the sources he consulted basically described both islam and hinduism had utterly idylic lifestyles, so he essentially praised imaginary objects.

[Ludicus]

^Bigdaddy is a nice Muslim kid though, as far as I know.

Very misplaced accusation.

I'm like 99.99% sure that Bigdaddy is a practicing Muslim.

Ouch
---

I have been called many things but anti Muslim? That's hilarious.

Ok, I see now. It's a Muslim rant.

[Sir Adrian]

A bit late to the thread but i seriously doubt tha if john considered becoming a muslim england would have gotten away without an instant crusade called againt it. Everyone in europe would have stopped everything and rusbed back to smack john upside the head. Besides if conversion was an issue he could ha e just as easily switched to orthodoxy. The ere was still a powerfull ally to have (especially since they could delay richard forever) and the diffrence between the two churches was not yet so big as to be noticeble to the common folk. Basically a change in language and priests could marry.

[Copperknickers II]

King John, a Muslim? Utter nonsense, you need to stop reading so many historical fiction novels and Muslim nationalist propaganda. He was a Christian, full stop. Oh, and he was also a werewolf, as everyone knows. It's quite difficult to maintain an Islamic lifestyle as a werewolf for several reasons. Firstly it's difficult to perform Isha'a if you are running around for a few nights each month eating livestock. Also keeping a halal diet is not easy since it's hard to practice halal slaughter without hands.

No. I'm sorry to interrupt your anti-Muslim rant.

"My interest in the story originated from the Muslim emir, who appears in the story and as a result of my studies on the various aspects of the encounter between Christians, Muslims and Jews in the frontier regions of the Iberian Peninsula in the medieval period.

Whilst re-reading the Latin source of the text, I discovered that the story speaks of neither submission nor conversion of religion.

Primarily engaged with negotiations towards a regional English-Navarrese-Almohad defense alliance, the story exemplifies the flexibility of the political situation between Christians and Muslims. (1) However, Paris´s delegation story is not about diplomacy alone.

It contains references to interreligious relations between Christians, Muslims and Jews -one of John's diplomats may have been a converted Jew, to whom the Almohad emir might have disclosed his personal inclinations towards the uncorrupted Christian faith, stemming from his biography as a born son to a Christian woman, an "Um-Walad""

Ilan Shoval - the author of King John's Delegation to the Almohad Court (1212): Medieval Interreligious Interactions and Modern Historiography- writes

Qualiter rex desperans miserit ad admiralium Murmelim

Misit igitur nuncios secretissimos cum festinatione summa, videlicet Thomam de Herdintona et Radulfum filium Nicholai milites et Robertum de Londoniis clericum, ad admiralium Murmelium, regem magnum Affricae, Marrochiae et Hyspaniae, quem vulgus Miramumelinum vocat. Significans eidem, quod se et regnum suum libenter redderet eidem, et dederet et deditum teneret ab ipso, si placeret ei, sub tributo. Necnon et legem Christianam, quam vanam censuit, relinquens, legi Machometi fideliter adhaereret.

https://archive.org/stream/matthipar.../n618/mode/2up

Someone who is better at Latin than me might correct me on this but that looks very much to me like he is offering to give over the kingdom of England to the Moors 'sub tributo' ('as a vassal') and to 'adhere faithfully to the law of Mohammed, leaving behind that of the Christians and judging it of no regard'.

[fkizz]

Diplomatic move (or propaganda by a rival pretender of the Throne).

Why would a Ruler lay down his whole strategy to opposing countries in geopolitics? Makes even less sense than Saudi Arabia going Catholic next week.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Guys I'm pretty sure bigdaddy was saying it as a joke.