Asia kingdoms/factions's navy during later 18th century - early 19th century?

[yevon]

Have anyone have interested in this topic?

We are discussing about " the strongest navy of Asia during 1770-1820 - exclude Ottoman .".


This is more difficult topic than I thought. I tried to find any information about Chinese ( Qing navy), Japan and even East India Company during this period. However, I almost can't find anything.

I just know that during First Opium War, Chinese usually fight against British with some war junk ( 10-15 cannon for every ship). And that is all, we even don't know how large these cannons are ( 3 pounder ? - 8 pounder? - 12 pounder? - 24 pouder? - ?)

I'm very surprise that even British East India Company's navy is very difficult to research, too. I can't find information about how many war ship ( galley? schooner? gunboat? frigate? ship of the line?) they own during this period. I read Osprey book about them. Unfortunately, this book just talk about infantry and cavalry, don't have anything about navy.

With Dutch East India Company, Spainish East Indies, Korean, Thailand, Myanmar and Malay-Indonesia's kingdoms, I total hopeless, can't find anything about them.


Have anyone have any information about British East India Company's, Chinese and Japan's navy during this period?

Who were the greatest Asia navy during this period?

[Prince of Essling]

You will find a list of the Merchant Vessels in the Service of the East India Company from 1601 to 1832 at http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/EICintro.htm Also see useful site https://eicships.threedecks.org/
As to warships you will need to search out the Bombay Marine, which was the company's private navy, intended mainly for coastal protection. The service operated from the Persian Gulf to the Indian Ocean and was also responsible for much survey work. In time of war its ships worked alongside the Royal Navy and during its final years, 1830–1863, it was known as the Indian Navy.
Read more at http://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/resear...jhOqXkFvXfl.99 Also delve through the listing at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego..._India_Company

[yevon]

sometimes, I feel tire when reading books be written by some adventurer/merchant. They usually write something too fantasy to became the reality.

https://books.google.com.vn/books?id...page&q&f=false

page 111. This merchant say that Vietnam during early of 19th century:
- their capital ( Hue) is the fortress which be guarded by 2000 cannon, with other 4000 cannon in the storage.
- These 6000 cannon included from 4 pounder to 69 pounder.

The trouble is when French invaded Vietnam just 30 years later, they don't really see anything look great like that.

[Prince of Essling]

For the Dutch East India Company, have a look at http://resources.huygens.knaw.nl/ret...&view=homePane
Contents - page number:

Preface IX
1. Organization and management of the VOC in the Republic 1
2. The shipbuilding and shipping business of the six chambers 22
3. The ships 37
4. The seaway to Asia: route, duration and risks 56
5. The return voyage: route, duration and risks 77
6. Ships and voyages of the VOC: a comparison with other East India companies 93
7. The Cape of Good Hope 107
8. The Company overseas: Batavia and other ports in European-Asiatic shipping 119
9. The people on board 143
10. Shipping movements and goods traffic: volume and value 173
11. The sources for Dutch-Asiatic shipping in the 17th and 18th centuries 195
Appendices
I. Seafaring personnel: composition and rates of pay 210
II. Victualling and rationing 214
III. Cargoes of two outward bound East Indiamen 219
IV. VOC exports of precious metals and copper coinage 1602-1795 223
V. Naval vessels sent out to Asia 1783-1794 246
Addenda and corrigenda to vols. II and III 251
Bibliography and sources 256
- Original sources 256
- Printed sources 258
- Contemporaneous literature 261
- Secondary works 262
- Survey of the principal sources used in the compilation of vols. II and III 271
- List of sources used in the compilation of vols. II and III 273
Index of ships' names 346
Index of personal names 349
Index of geographical names 351
Subject index 354

[Haakbus]

The Korean navy of this time period consisted primarily of two-decked chonson ships with sails and oars armed with roughly 20-25 guns, supported by single-decked pyongson with only a handful of guns. Large chonson which functioned as flagships could have perhaps 30 guns or so. The armor on these ships was quite light, only around 3-5 inches, as they were intended to counter arrow, musket, and maybe light artillery fire. Where the Korean navy excelled was in naval gunnery, which to my knowledge was the largest in standard use in East Asia. Most guns would be equivalent in bore to European 14-pdr culverin, 9-pdr demiculverin, and 5-pdr saker. Shot (generally a combination of round shot and grapeshot) were preferred for anti-personnel uses, while giant arrows weighing up to 60 pounds were used against ships.

The turtle ship was basically a covered version of the main warships and were armed similarly.

[Common Soldier]

The Korean ships look very sturdy, but slow, what with their large width to length ratio, although manueverable. With their relatively small sail area, and reliance on oars for propulsion, they look best suited for coastal defense, which they appear well suited. By the way, is the chonson the same sho as the panokseon?

I read the turtles had a ram for ramming ships, but even with 30 oars, the turtle ship doesn't look it would be fast enough to be very effective at rammingto ram a ship. However, I also read the Japanese ships were lightly constructed, so it might have been effective against the Japanese ships.

In 19th century, the Korean ships, panokseon (chonson?) and the turtle woudl have been outdated designs. The turtle ships were apparently used from the end of thd 16th to 19th century, but that is well over 200 years, and ship design changed a lot in that time, Did the chonson/panokseon and turtle ship design undergo any major revisions in all that time,

[Haakbus]

The Korean ships look very sturdy, but slow, what with their large width to length ratio, although manueverable. With their relatively small sail area, and reliance on oars for propulsion, they look best suited for coastal defense, which they appear well suited. By the way, is the chonson the same sho as the panokseon?

Actually their speed appears to have been around 3-5 knots, which is decent. Note that the deck is wider than the actual hull which it overhangs by a few feet on either side. Not sure of the size, but they did have two sails. Some of the paintings show them as quite large. Yes, the chonson is what the mainline warships were called, but they were built in the panokson design, which is the castle-like upper structures forming the second deck. This was adapted from the Japanese yagura construction on their ships in 1555. In the 18th century there is a record that the chonson was difficult to manage in wind because of their high sides.

I read the turtles had a ram for ramming ships, but even with 30 oars, the turtle ship doesn't look it would be fast enough to be very effective at rammingto ram a ship. However, I also read the Japanese ships were lightly constructed, so it might have been effective against the Japanese ships.

Some versions did have a ram, and they had generally 16-18 oars (as opposed to 18-24 for the main battleships). Note that these are giant yuloh sculls manned by up to 5-6 men each, not your typical Western oars. Not sure about how that would translate into speed though. The chonson also rammed even without proper rams.

In 19th century, the Korean ships, panokseon (chonson?) and the turtle woudl have been outdated designs. The turtle ships were apparently used from the end of thd 16th to 19th century, but that is well over 200 years, and ship design changed a lot in that time, Did the chonson/panokseon and turtle ship design undergo any major revisions in all that time,

They certainly were, and appear to have rotted away by the mid 19th century. There were some changes in the design (having to do with the placement of masts and deck structure) in the 17th century but they remained essentially the same.

That is, except for the turtle ship. Na Taeyong's original design appears to have been much smaller and quite different in the placement of cannons than the designs described later.

[Common Soldier]

Thanks. Speed is about typical average sailing speed, although seems still q luttle slow for ramming. Reproductions of a trireme indicated they could make up to 9 knots. But as I said, the Japanese ships seemed lightly constructed.

[HackneyedScribe]

There is a difference between ramming speed and usual speed. Is 3-5 knots ramming speed or the usual speed? Also how is this speed made known to us??

[Haakbus]

The average speed of the Korean fleet (~50 ships) was around 2-3 knots when moving among islands based on the distances traveled and times recorded in Yi Sunshin's writings. An individual ship would have been a bit faster, so that's why I estimated about 3-5 knots. This would have been sustained sailing speed.

[Common Soldier]

In the case of a trireme, we have some records of voyages over known distances that allow us to calculate their speed and the we also have some reconstructions. Korean naval voyages were likely all short distances, and so oars may have been used, which could have raised the speed. For short distances, triremes were capable of over 7 knots, as Xenophon widely quoted reference to a single day's voyage from Byzantium to Heraclea Pontica, shows. . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme

Here is a list of ancient sailing speeds for the Mediterranean. Note a sailing speed of 4 - 5 knots was typical speed under favorable winds, For short 1 day voyages, up to 8 knots could be achieved with warships. .
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...nt_Ships*.html

For a replica 17th century galleon, the average speed was 7 knots. http://tallshipsportland.org/el-galeon/. However this speed was appears to be for good weather, being a replica it had not need to sail under bad weather. When looking at actual voyages of 18 century to early 18th century sailing ships on long voyages, the actual speed would be less. https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10.../786607629.pdf
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[HackneyedScribe]

The average speed of the Korean fleet (~50 ships) was around 2-3 knots when moving among islands based on the distances traveled and times recorded in Yi Sunshin's writings. An individual ship would have been a bit faster, so that's why I estimated about 3-5 knots. This would have been sustained sailing speed.

As a very general rule, ramming speed is twice the sustained speed. So this sounds reasonable. Weight of ships also have to be considered, for how effective ramming is.

[Haakbus]

In the case of a trireme, we have some records of voyages over known distances that allow us to calculate their speed and the we also have some reconstructions. Korean naval voyages were likely all short distances, and so oars may have been used, which could have raised the speed. For short distances, triremes were capable of over 7 knots, as Xenophon widely quoted reference to a single day's voyage from Byzantium to Heraclea Pontica, shows. . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trireme

Here is a list of ancient sailing speeds for the Mediterranean. Note a sailing speed of 4 - 5 knots was typical speed under favorable winds, For short 1 day voyages, up to 8 knots could be achieved with warships. .
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...nt_Ships*.html

For a replica 17th century galleon, the average speed was 7 knots. http://tallshipsportland.org/el-galeon/. However this speed was appears to be for good weather, being a replica it had not need to sail under bad weather. When looking at actual voyages of 18 century to early 18th century sailing ships on long voyages, the actual speed would be less. https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10.../786607629.pdf
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Those distances were most, if not completely, sailed based on Yi's writings. Rowing was used during battle or when the wind made sails impractical (they certainly could sail into the wind, but that is really slow).

As a very general rule, ramming speed is twice the sustained speed. So this sounds reasonable. Weight of ships also have to be considered, for how effective ramming is.

Interesting. That would give roughly 6-10 knots maximum, but not too sustainable. On the flip side, however, the yuloh style scull requires much less energy to work, which might make ramming speed more sustainable for longer. I don't know if it made the ship slower, but it definitely was much more efficient than your standard oar.

[Common Soldier]

I would like to point out that if the ship speeds we have for the Korean fleet are under sail as was said, then we realling don't have any actual data for the speed of the Korean ships under oar, and any rowing speed is just a guess.

I am not sure what speed you would need for being a success at ramming. I know that triremes had speeds of 9 knots or so, but for all I know you could successfully ram at lower speeds. Still, 8 to 10 knots max for a short time seems possible.