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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

  1. #121
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Yeah you're right guys. Sorry for that. Anyway your current version of the Voynuks is good but for the 14th century because Ottomans did conquer the Balkans before Constantinople and you can make a new one based on the pic I sent you for the 15th century.

  2. #122

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    @hessam

    What about to give the Yeniçeri Billmens some Shields or Armour? Like "Zırhlı Yeniçeri Billmen" which would make sense for some Frontier Troops.
    Last edited by Nebaki; June 10, 2017 at 07:00 PM.

  3. #123
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    No... they are good as they are... only to transform them in Sekban Ocaklari Yeniceri. I would propose instead this new version with polearms and bows as Cemaat Ocaklari Yeniceri, the current Yeniceri Archers as Ajemi Ocaklari Yeniceri and the version you are suggesting in Beylik Ocaklari Yeniceri. Because the first weapon and the base one was the bow, then they learned the sword, axe, mace, spear, bardiche and other polearms. Most likely the Cemaat and the Beylik learned to ride horses as well and rode them to battle but fought on foot as was the tradition. The current Zirhli Yeniceri Archers should be given the name Zirhli Nefer Yeniceri as most sources call them thus. Other options are the Bosnian Yerli Kulu and the Serdengecti, the assault version of the Yeniceri, latest tier before becoming Sipahi. As I stated before, Kapikulu Infantry should not be confused with Yeniceri and Janissary should not be considered Royal Guards. The only exception is the Solak orta, the captains, personal foot bodyguards of the Sultan even if all Janissary were children of the Sultan only they served him direct, the Beylik Janissary were bodyguards of the Bey. I doubt that they would have 100 ortas of armoured frontiersmen.
    Last edited by Visarion; June 10, 2017 at 07:33 PM.

  4. #124
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    What I suggest though is to check the miniatures of the era and add diversity to the current Janissary, at least the head piece, there were so many styles, shapes and forms. Also why not add different models. I's pretty plain having the same model for three units.

  5. #125

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)


  6. #126

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    To be honest, they look good as they are.

  7. #127
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Will you make elites like nökers or yeniçeris "limited" for recruitment?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  8. #128
    hessam's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Nebaki, I'll think about giving the polearm Yeniceri unit some shields, but no promises. Regarding their armor, like I said before, their armor stats will more of a medium than light nature. The same goes for Yeniceri archers and gunners.

    Visarion, a simple look at late 15th and early 16th century Ottoman miniatures (it's a shame there's no earlier representation of the Yeniceri) will show you that they all wore about the exact same robe and bork. Those other styles you mentioned are either ceremonial, related to certain positions, or a later innovation.

    dogukan, It's not decided yet. I'm personally a fan of recruitment caps (managed with great care of course) but it can't be left to personal taste as it will create great imbalance between different factions whose creators have different ideas on the matter. So the team will have to discuss that among themselves. If we decide there should be a recruitment cap for certain units (noble units, for example), we can even create a new thread for fans to chip in with their ideas and opinions.

  9. #129
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    I don't know about this cap thing because they basically recruited 1,000 Christian soldiers per year, that would mean, if we take in consideration that one orta had 60 men roughly 16-17 ortas. That would be per turn. So... how we transform this? And they were ready after how many years of training!? 7 years from 13 to 20 years old. When they learned martial arts, horsemanship, science, literature and so on. So that would be... 7 turns!? Well it depends... a turn will be how many years!? 2 years then 3 turns... this might solve it... the number of turns needed to train Janissaries and other conditions, war against Christians, raiding, taking captives, slave trader and so on, maybe a port and a fleet for that certain settlement, a Janissary Guild, a Janissary Headquarters/Barracks, a Bektash Sect, training grounds, rituals, Dervishes, Janissary Captain, Scriptorium, Stables, Royal Palace, last level of city, Huge City, walls etc. And all of these conditions will limit the player and impose strict conditions themselves instead of caps.
    Last edited by Visarion; June 11, 2017 at 08:45 AM.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Quote Originally Posted by hessam View Post
    Nebaki, I'll think about giving the polearm Yeniçeri unit some shields, but no promises. Regarding their armor, like I said before, their armor stats will more of a medium than light nature. The same goes for Yeniçeri archers and gunners.
    But there is Huge difference between Yeniçeri Archers and Gunners - The Billmens are not involved in a ranged fighting, they are frontier troops, i mean just look again at your Models for Yeniçeri, even you will admit that every Commander will feel a little sad by using that Billmens example against Cavalry - Don´t misunderstood me, i respect your decisions, my problem here is why it is possible to give Archers and Offensive Infantry Armour but not to the Billmens which are suited for the Defensive Role, i guess the Ottomans would fill the gap of missing a good Defensive Infantry Role in the Late Era.

    Secondly i must add that Yeniçeri archers doesn´t have any Shields, why?

  11. #131
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    I checked the miniatures of the era and hessam did a very good job in representing the Ottomans. He respected even the head piece that showed the rank, troop type and so on. Same for the cavalry and their dress. Unlike what I previously thought indeed the Armoured Foot Soldiers or Zirhli Nefer depicted are archers, most likely dismounted cavalry or riders fighting on foot for whatever reasons. Most of the Janissary and other foot guards are depicted with bows and few with maces, axes, spears and polearms. Next to Kapikulu Sipahi and even Deli are depicted Squires with bardiches, polearms and spears just like hessam chose to depict the Kapikulu Infantry. I did see squires next to Deli dressed in the same fashion and wielding spears though, maybe the Bosniac Frontiersmen or Garrisons, the Yerli Kulu? They are depicted wearing leopard skins and wings from birds of prey just like their masters. Maybe a candidate for a suplimentary unit!?
    Last edited by Visarion; June 11, 2017 at 02:09 PM.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    Maybe a candidate for a suplimentary unit!?
    Aren´t there enough suplimentary Units?

  13. #133
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    I must play a battle with the current roster before answering your question to be honest!

  14. #134

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    The guy below who is dressed as Ottoman horse archer looks exactly like tier 2 akinjis








    And this one looks like tier 3 Akinjis (his horse is Irish breed though)
    Last edited by Danishmend; June 13, 2017 at 08:06 AM.

  15. #135
    hessam's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Guys I'll be making a few changes (mostly in appearance) in the near future. I'll keep you posted.

  16. #136
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Interesting... hope it's those Janissary!

  17. #137

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    Interesting... hope it's those Janissary!
    1+

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  18. #138
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Hessam, just wanted to add in some info on the Futuwwa since they were a major part of my research for the Abbasids, if you want to elaborate on them, your call.

    Turkic terms for Futuwwa and the membership are as follows:

    Futuwwa in Turkish is fütüvvet

    A Ahi was a member of the group, they are also called rind, which means rogue. A similar Arabic term is fityan. Later on the term yiğit refers specifically to the junior members of the fütüvvet, ahi's being the full members and shaykh's being advanced members.

    Sources:

    The Seljuks of Anatolia: Court and Society in the Medieval Middle East, Andrew Peacock, Sara Nur Yildiz

    The Formation of Turkey: The Seljukid Sultanate of Rum: Eleventh to Fourteenth Century, Claude Cahen

  19. #139
    hessam's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontfearme22 View Post
    Hessam, just wanted to add in some info on the Futuwwa since they were a major part of my research for the Abbasids, if you want to elaborate on them, your call.

    Turkic terms for Futuwwa and the membership are as follows:

    Futuwwa in Turkish is fütüvvet

    A Ahi was a member of the group, they are also called rind, which means rogue. A similar Arabic term is fityan. Later on the term yiğit refers specifically to the junior members of the fütüvvet, ahi's being the full members and shaykh's being advanced members.

    Sources:

    The Seljuks of Anatolia: Court and Society in the Medieval Middle East, Andrew Peacock, Sara Nur Yildiz

    The Formation of Turkey: The Seljukid Sultanate of Rum: Eleventh to Fourteenth Century, Claude Cahen
    Thanks for the info. The Ottoman Sufi Organizations (whose members were called Ahi like you said) were better organized and far more influential that Futuwwa of the Seljuk era, although they shared many characteristics. (it might not be clear here but the Ahis of this roster are actually meant to replace the Futuwwa in high era). I could use the Turkish term instead though.

  20. #140
    nnnm's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: the Seljuks of Rum (and the Ottomans)

    In Ibn BaTutah Journey he called them Akhiyah Fityan (porular of of Fata and Fata is the person who joined Fu’Tu’Wah). He mentioned that the Akhi is the one choosen among the Fityan to be in charge of them. He described the group he met in Antalya I think. They wore Qibas with white Qulunsuwah that have long thick line in the length of arm comes from it's top. And they wear light leather shoes and each one had belt in it a long knife (he said knife in arabic but he mentioned it's length is around 120 cm)


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