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Thread: Actively applying for Citizenship?

  1. #21
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    I'm skeptical of interest rising, for it would require drastic changes and Hex won't approve
    Is there a forum, or could there be a forum, where we could bandy random ideas? They might never get looked at, but it'd be the first step to possible changes.
    Pls don't delete for being off-topic.



  2. #22
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    One could just rename the CCT to "Curia and Citizenship - Questions and Comments" (and add a line to the OP; although nobody really ever reads the OPs of age old stickies). If people want to ask about citizenship they could do it right there even now, but a better title could help make that clearer. I am myself at least sceptical about people actively asking for Citizenship, since it seems to contravene the ideal of a modest, helpful community member to ask for bling, but a small change to a thread title seems innocuous enough to cover the benefits of letting people make themselves heard without completely institutionalising self-recommendations.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
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  3. #23
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    One could just rename the CCT to "Curia and Citizenship - Questions and Comments" (and add a line to the OP; although nobody really ever reads the OPs of age old stickies). If people want to ask about citizenship they could do it right there even now, but a better title could help make that clearer. I am myself at least sceptical about people actively asking for Citizenship, since it seems to contravene the ideal of a modest, helpful community member to ask for bling, but a small change to a thread title seems innocuous enough to cover the benefits of letting people make themselves heard without completely institutionalising self-recommendations.
    Something like this? A paragraph or two stating the following things
    - The requirements of Citizenship (3 to 6 months [can't remember which] of membership and 50 or more comments)
    - That Citizens represent the modding and debating sides of TWCenter and thus should fully represent the virtues of TWCenter (an open mind, respect and perseverance?)
    - A suggestion that potential Citizens shadow a Citizen's posts in the Curia to be able to see what types of stuff goes on in the Curia (this is what I did with PikeStance). This could help lead them to finding a Patron.
    - Then a paragraph stating that "it is generally advised that you wait until you have caught the attention of a Citizen with your content, and they approach you requesting to be your patron rather than you approach a Citizen, but this is merely a recommendation and not a rule"
    Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; May 22, 2017 at 09:04 AM.



  4. #24

    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iskar View Post
    One could just rename the CCT to "Curia and Citizenship - Questions and Comments" (and add a line to the OP; although nobody really ever reads the OPs of age old stickies). If people want to ask about citizenship they could do it right there even now, but a better title could help make that clearer. I am myself at least sceptical about people actively asking for Citizenship, since it seems to contravene the ideal of a modest, helpful community member to ask for bling, but a small change to a thread title seems innocuous enough to cover the benefits of letting people make themselves heard without completely institutionalising self-recommendations.
    I do not think a renaming is necessary. There have been about a half dozen citizenship inquiries in that thread in particular. Apart from myself, someone else used the Q&S forum to ask about it. (Curiosity: They asked in the Q&S at the same time my application was being reviewed.)

    The problem is not that people who want to be citizens have no idea how to become one, but the lack of citizens choosing not to patronize a worthy candidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    this was where the CdeC was amazing, it maintained the standards of citizenship without relying on every citizen to participate in every application.
    the reality is that the Curia is dead and nobody really cares what happens anymore, it lost its appeal a long time ago
    One detail that the CdeC did create was awareness. The frequent elections at least raised awareness of citizenship and the importance of patronizing. I can recall many discussion regarding the "standards" for citizenship. Since the removal, I think there have been one minor discussion on the issue and that was probably about 2 to 3 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    It doesn't mean that the "curial appeal" can't raise again
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    I'm skeptical of interest rising, for it would require drastic changes and Hex won't approve
    I am too. The Curia is really crapped on my most. I recently made a discussion thread about changing the forum outlook and I was asked why I didn't post in the Q&S? If there is any hope for the Curia to "rise," then the only hope is that suggestion in Q&S be passed to the Curia. Suggesting that it should go the other way completely undermines any rising. If anything it is the best way to marginalize even more. The tend is to continue this. How many times are we going to read that the Curia make only grand gestures for change and the Admin can "veto." How exactly does that promote the use of the Curia as a forum for suggestion and change? It actually doesn't. I realize that participation as been dwindling. However, this is a time for the admin to promote the Curia as a vehicle of change. If it does that, then people will start to return to the Curia make real suggestion. It doesn't take members to realize that the Curia is facade. What is the point for patronization if it is only for patronization?

  5. #25
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord William View Post
    this was where the CdeC was amazing, it maintained the standards of citizenship without relying on every citizen to participate in every application.

    the reality is that the Curia is dead and nobody really cares what happens anymore, it lost its appeal a long time ago
    1: If only it had that one job to do. Unfortunately it didn't and on a number of occasions proved untrustworthy, even corrupt. Also, Pike is correct, we've had stability in the requirements and the standard of proposal has steadily grown stronger.

    2: Subjective, actually it's been better recently than it has for a long time. There are less people, true, but there are generally better people.

    I don't hate this idea, in fact I'm sure we previously encourage members to use the CCT for this purpose. it just didn't catch on. I think there is value in being 'discovered' and building a relationship between patron and candidate.

    I'd be interested in some stats on patronage, is there really a decline?. I guess the days of Tom Paine and IMB are long past, but there seems to have been a fairly steady number coming through.

    Thanks largely to Pike.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Here is the Successful application from 2004 to the present.
    The most significant drop are from 2006-2008, 2009-2010 and from 2011- 2013. 2007 was an anomalous year. The site was at its height from 2004-2009.

    2003: 24 (Nov.- Dec)
    2004: 100
    2005: 130
    2006: 126-2
    2007: 163-9

    2008: 95-1
    2009: 86

    2010: 65
    2011: 67

    2012: 47
    2013: 35 (20)
    2014: 35 (24)
    2015: 29 (16)

    2016: 22+(10)
    2017: 8

    Notes___________________________________________________________________________________________
    Data was collected from List of Citizens and the Citizens Antechamber.
    Prior to 2009, most of the data comes from the List of Citizens wiki page.
    Afer 2009 the data comes exclusively from Citizens Antechamber. I have no cross checked both lists except years 2003 to 2008.
    In 2003 candidates were presented by administrators.
    The smaller number after the dash represents members where either the patron was unknown or given citizenship through earning a large award
    The number in parenthesis are the number of unique Patrons.
    + Represents a member given citizenship, but were indefinitely suspended for being an "alt account"

  7. #27

    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Remembers my own citizen application. I actually asked directly at the "Curial Commentary" thread. It was Pike that helped me to become one (Artifex) by being my patron (which ended in success). I remember that when I was active, that I saw those special badges under the names of the members. I was always asking myself, "how could I get one?" hahaha. I already had the feeling that you where only getting that when you proved yourself worthy as a contributor towards the community (at least, that's how I see it). I think it will be nice that there can be thread, where members can ask to citizens (directly) those questions about citizenship (what it means to be a citizen? how to become one? what are the responsibilities? How they benefitted to be a citizen? Etc...). This makes members more approachable towards the curia and also creates more a relationship between future citizens and citizens (makes it easier to know each other and to be a patron of them).

  8. #28
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Here is the Successful application from 2004 to the present.
    The most significant drop are from 2006-2008, 2009-2010 and from 2011- 2013. 2007 was an anomalous year. The site was at its height from 2004-2009.

    2003: 24 (Nov.- Dec)
    2004: 100
    2005: 130
    2006: 126-2
    2007: 163-9

    2008: 95-1
    2009: 86

    2010: 65
    2011: 67

    2012: 47
    2013: 35 (20)
    2014: 35 (24)
    2015: 29 (16)

    2016: 22+(10)
    2017: 8

    Notes___________________________________________________________________________________________
    Data was collected from List of Citizens and the Citizens Antechamber.
    Prior to 2009, most of the data comes from the List of Citizens wiki page.
    Afer 2009 the data comes exclusively from Citizens Antechamber. I have no cross checked both lists except years 2003 to 2008.
    In 2003 candidates were presented by administrators.
    The smaller number after the dash represents members where either the patron was unknown or given citizenship through earning a large award
    The number in parenthesis are the number of unique Patrons.
    + Represents a member given citizenship, but were indefinitely suspended for being an "alt account"
    So the CdeC was better after all
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  9. #29
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    The CdC only examined the applications, it did not bring them forth themselves, so whether the CdC or the wider Citizenry vote on applications is procedurally unrelated to how many applications are actually put forward.

    Also, bear in mind that with a roughly constant core membership application numbers are bound to drop even when the site is not in decline as the pool of deserving members gets saturated with awards. Naturally there were lots of applications in the early years when there were more deserving candidates than possible patrons and as the second group grows it first speeds up the number of applications to finally slow down when almost all candidates have been citizenised. Hence I would not too easily jump to conclusions of "decline" based on falling patronisation numbers.
    "Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
    "Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil

    On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.

    I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
    In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.

  10. #30
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    True, true but the nature of the committee did have a stick and carrot effect which encouraged more people to join. People applied more because it was exclusive and hard to get. Getting the badge validated you in front of the community. Nowadays not so much. Iirc prior to 2008 or 2009 citizenship was more or less auto-granted to anyone who met the conditions. So that would explain the high numbers early on.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  11. #31

    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    One of the myths of the CdeC is that they were overly critical of some applications. However, in the few that I have examine, these failed application would have failed if put forth by today standards. Squid would argue that some of the application that would had passed would had failed if not for admin intervention. Two thoughts; one, that is the role the admin is supposed to play and two, there are examples of critical review by some members of the CdeC who actually voted in favor of the application. This is still just a supposition because I was not investigating this particular aspect. It is gut feeling I felt while reading some of the applications.

    The CdeC had a strange duality in the process. It could had retarded the number of possible applications by providing a "formality" tot he process. On the other hand, the very existence created a "buzz" about citizenship.

    In my research there was never a time where citizenship was automatic. In fact, even in 2004, (prior to the CdeC and when the admin hand picked candidates) there were applicants who failed. Of course, we should exercise some caution here. We have very limited information on applications prior to 2008. It is too easy to make false assumptions. One of the factors I started to look at was the number of unique patronizations. What that will tell us is anyone's guess, but it will give us another piece of the puzzle. I have number of things i will be looking into as well and a summer to play.

  12. #32
    Halie Satanus's Avatar Emperor of ice cream
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Iirc prior to 2008 or 2009 citizenship was more or less auto-granted to anyone who met the conditions. So that would explain the high numbers early on.
    Any auto-granting of citizenship was prior to 05. Even then the conditions were just the first hurdle, it was more 'if we like you, you're in.' Not everyone was liked.

    Back when staff served as the guardians of citizenship they were as strict as any system that followed, if not stricter. High numbers 05-09 were more to do with competition between the citizens of the time, Squeak (Tom Paigne) KScott, Fab and Ian, tbp among others all kept a constant stream of candidates flowing through.

  13. #33
    Evolution's Avatar Feel my sting
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    prior to 2008 or 2009 citizenship was more or less auto-granted to anyone who met the conditions. So that would explain the high numbers early on.
    heh not at all, it was quite hard I assure you. A lot ofnit did depend on whether or not the community liked/knew of you though. It also depended on who your patron was as well. between 2004 and 2007 this forum had a massive boom in users and was arguably the golden age
    Total war turned me into a Twcenter religious fanatic
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  14. #34
    Frunk's Avatar Form Follows Function
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Thanks for the insight, Evolution.

  15. #35
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Evolution View Post
    heh not at all, it was quite hard I assure you. A lot ofnit did depend on whether or not the community liked/knew of you though. It also depended on who your patron was as well. between 2004 and 2007 this forum had a massive boom in users and was arguably the golden age
    Good to see people from that time still around
    Last edited by General Brewster; July 28, 2017 at 02:40 PM.

  16. #36
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    I think a few things contributed to the fall but I don't think that making the titles more easily obtained is the solution.

    I think we should go for some different effects on names and etc which would be neat, badges to differentiate people. For a long time citizens especially in the debate forums were absolutely amazing. I can't say I see very many examples of candidates today who should even get a shake. For the most part even folks I totally disagree with make good contributions if they have that badge.

    I think you lost a huge number of citizens due to mismanagement and inter-curial conflict and strife, with TW being irrelevant to most of these people by that point the community was the only thing left and that community for a long time was quite toxic. The status of this forum as an alt-right breeding ground now is a result of this stuff. A new TW game is unlikely to invigorate the community unless modability approaches the simplicity of the Rome and Medieval Games which I can't see happening. Honestly modding is probably going to be dominated by the newer systems and a website repository is more and more irrelevant.

    Long term success:

    Put emphasis on bringing up quality posters.

    Put emphasis on branching out into new communities which can sustain increased interest.

    Remove people who aren't living up to the standards of quality.

    Reward patrons who recruit new people (there used to be a fun system of belonging to different houses with different groups of folks working together on a team etc) with something which helps distinguish them from others.

    Open up reward nominations to all people but only allow citizens to be nominated. Award more frequent smaller awards.

    I duno, the 50-60 of my citizen friends who have left have left largely because of the diminishing quality of debate in EMM and Mudpit.

  17. #37
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    ^^ To summarize your point: be more elitist (even more totalitarist - I'd say)
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  18. #38
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: Actively applying for Citizenship?

    Elitism is more about the essential quality of folks being superior to each other. There ideally should be mobility in the system. I would also hedge away from Total War at all because I just don't think mods and content for the game is generated in the same way this website was designed for anymore. Steam has more or less cornered the market and communication is provided better through a variety of social media platforms (instagram, twitter, facebook, snapchat). While it's not impossible to compete w/ these groups I do believe it's implausible for this website to do so. Similarly I think totalitarianism is irrelevant. I'm not suggesting we change the governance structure whatsoever but rather see to the base and the fixes will follow. Our current primary problem is too few people and a whole lot of infrastructure. Adding more layers, more bureaucracy, more inaccessibility will exacerbate that problem. Currently, people get lost, people don't get responded to, people get bored and move on. The first step to any solution ya'll propose should fundamentally deal with the problem of people, that means incentivizing someone to come to TWCenter instead of just continuing to message their buddies in a FB group.

    This may have merits but I feel the citizenry is too arbitrary to create a valid draw for folks, I think people will need a connection to a community before citizenship becomes relevant and plurality of discussion and discourse and traffic is what we need to reinvigorate that community. However once we have an invigorated community we should continue our selectivity to ensure that citizenship returns to meaningfulness. We might also want to do a better job of on-boarding citizens. I rarely look at these forums but it's not because ya'll aren't great, but because they're usually just dead. One of the biggest barriers I noticed early on was not really understanding my "place", I was quite thrilled to be offered the citizenship but I also wasn't able to take ownership of the concept until I felt a sense of belonging, I think this is really easy to counter with things like "K now you're a citizen, make a thread in the curia, it can be a game, it can be discussing something you think is neat, it can be a change to the site, it can be a brief introduction but you need to make a thread."

    It sounds silly but it works quite effectively.

    Come to think of it. We also need to blow up the single thread for every topic thing. People will not wade through 2 new pages to post something unless they're gluttons for punishment (me). If threads are getting beyond 10 pages there's something wrong or someone stumbled upon the secret to making great threads. Methinks the practice of merging content (for example all things related to trump) gives the impression that the content is trash and rewards those who post frequently without any content. Threads as long as the ones in the mudpit never used to happen and if they did they were rare exceptions and not the result of mods eliminating nuanced but similar discussion and merging it.
    Last edited by Elfdude; January 03, 2018 at 01:11 AM.

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