Cities That Shall Not Be Tamed

[Artannis Wolfrunner]

I had not seen this before until now. Athens and Corinth simply will not be conquered. These two cities are currently impossible to control, sitting at <30% public order with a full stack of 160-200 man units in them. I've reconquered both cities so many times that there's nobody left in either. Population comparison of Corinth before and after. Athens had 15,000 and now has 500. Both cities have an extraordinary amount of income lost to corruption and devastation, neither of which has any discernible cause. I cannot convert their culture because I cannot hold on to either long enough to get even a 1% increase, nor can I hold on to either long enough to build any government buildings. I've loaded them up with spies and assassins to deter enemy spies as well.

Any advice on what to do? Reconquering them every other turn is really tearing the fun out of the campaign.

[Roma_Victrix]

Must have something to do with scripting/coding and the fact that you're not playing with a Greek faction. Usually I have a revolt from time to time that needs to be put down and I tend to sack or even enslave a settlement to restore order. Those cities need a recruited allied governor right away if you can hold onto them long enough to install an allied government (the one just before choosing an oligarchy or democracy). You can also improve public order by putting in better generals as governors right away, and by that I mean ones with traits and ancillaries that specifically affect public order. Generals with lots of "influence" (i.e. the status bar with green laurel wreaths) convert culture much quicker than others and have a public order bonus. The problem, it seems, is that your general "Antipatros Kianos" sucks as an administrator. Surely you have a better general/family member for this? I mean, not only is his command star status at 3 (an okay field general at best), his influence is only at 1. That's not good.

Also, your second picture of Corinth no longer had that many soldiers garrisoned there. That's another problem. In addition to a good governor, you're going to need lots of troops for this, with fresh troops to replace the damaged ones, I'm afraid.

If it's driving you insane, you could always cheat, too.

add_population Korinthos -4000
add_population Korinthos -4000
give_trait "Antipatros Kianos" "PeopleHappy" 3
give_trait "Antipatros Kianos" "GoodBuilder" 3
give_trait "Antipatros Kianos" "GoodAdministrator" 3
give_trait "Antipatros Kianos" "KindRuler" 3
give_trait "Antipatros Kianos" "Just" 3
give_trait "Antipatros Kianos" "Pious" 3
give_ancillary "Antipatros Kianos" "judge"
give_ancillary "Antipatros Kianos" "playwright"
give_ancillary "Antipatros Kianos" "historian"
give_ancillary "Antipatros Kianos" "rhetor_hellenikos"

[Artannis Wolfrunner]

I suspected it had something to do with scripting and being a foreign culture. The fact that Sparta and Thermon are both just fine at the moment with small garrisons lead me to some artificial cause, such as a script.

As for the governor, pay no attention to him. I must have tried 15 different governors in each city. Even with my God General governing the city there is no movement in public order at all.

If it is script related, might I suggest that script be adjusted. For testing purposes I process_cq'd the Client Ruler line of buildings with a client ruler himself, and the city never moved above 50% public order. The cities seem impossible to control. I may try those console commands, or just trade these problem cities away to Epeiros.

[Roma_Victrix]

Wow. Your general Arsames does seem to have great traits and ancillaries. It's definitely the script then, especially if nearby Greek cities are doing fine. Talk to Quintus Sertorius about this. He's the number one guy to go to for talking about the campaign script. In the meantime, try the console commands that I've suggested, just as a test. I'd like to know the result. If cheating doesn't even work, then this is a serious problem. No city should be unconquerable. That's silliness.

[QuintusSertorius]

It's not scripting, it's the descr_settlement_mechanics.xml; larger settlements are intrinsically harder to control than smaller ones (requiring larger garrisons to get the garrison bonus, for example). Places of divergent culture add to that problem. Add to that starting unrest in a newly-conquered settlement is at 80%, which decreases by 5% a turn (rate of decline is hardcoded).

Note a good general isn't necessarily going to be a good governor, they're two largely divergent paths as far as traits and ancillaries go. There are a host of good administration traits that are built up by managing large settlements, not leading armies. Just looking at the top line of stats doesn't tell us whether your FM is a good governor, what are their traits? Do they have traits which reduce Unrest and Famine? Do they have ancillaries which do the same?

You're not going to get away from the cultural penalty, though. On a related note, I do wonder if conversion (without colonies or the like) is too fast. I'm doing a lengthy playtest myself, and 120 turns in a lot of places are skewing strongly towards mono-cultural, even without a converting building being in place.

[Hellenikon]

I think the main issue is the population + culture penalty, it's not the same to hold a city of 13k households than a village of 400, even if both are 100% foreign culture. Public order went up by a lot on your second pic, with a decent garrison it should be enough to hold Corinth. From my experience if you ever want a settlement where your culture is 20 or less, then you need to be prepared to enslave + garrison, and start rebuilding from the ground up. You also need a high influence general in order to make unrest more manageable and start converting to your culture.

In my Boii campaign i went early after the dacian province with mines (can't remember the name now), enslaved and fully garrisoned it. My culture there was 10%, and it took like 12 years with a near max infuence faction leader (he was 70 or so when done) to convert to 25% - so i could start a migration, and set the bases for making it my own. All the time holding it the settlement was pissed, but by having a large garrison and a small population they were kept in check.

[MagusCaligula]

I think enslave option raise unrest in other settlements near, I only used it when start playing this, I now only use sack and occupy so not sure now. anyway there are buildings that reduces happiness or order so if you destroy them it would make things better.

[Artannis Wolfrunner]

I think I need to make it clear exactly how long I've been struggling with these two cities. Look at the "before" and "after" screenshots in the OP. I've been wrestling these cities to the ground for 30 turns now, and they have indeed hit the ground. Athens is at 500 population and Korinthos about 1200. When I conquered them, however, Athens had 15,000 and Korinthos 13,000. I've seen the full breadth of how population affects public order in these settlements, and large or small, it didn't matter - the cities are impossible to control whether they have 15,000 or 500 population.

There's nothing to be done about culture. I cannot convert a city that I cannot control.

I don't see enslaving as having anything to do with it. I invaded Greece from the south, with a naval landing, and conquered Sparte, Korinthos, and Athenai in that order. I sacked all three with no enslavements. I've enslaved both cities multiple times in the time since hoping it would help, unfortunately it did nothing to help the public order. It did wonders for destroying my reputation though, which has fallen from Reliable to Dubious...

As for governors, the problem lay in what you said, "traits that are built up by managing large settlements," it is not possible to build up any traits while managing a city 2-3 turns at a time while it civil revolts in between each term. Am I supposed to pull my governors from my home cities and send them out to manage these money holes? I'll try that today, at any rate. Even if it worked, which I doubt, it still seems that these two settlements are broken somehow that they would be the only two on the map that requires that sort of special administration. I'll also try out those console commands today, I will report back later.

edit: I should also repeat that no amount of a garrison will cause the cities to relent. Even with a full stack of 2500-3000+ men, we are looking at 40% public order.

[MagusCaligula]

Are you sure there isn't a very good spy there increasing unrest? Because even if you sent a spy there but he wasn't very good like a fresh recruited spy and the spy there is a high skilled one you'll never detect him. I remember when I conquered Pontos capital with Hayasdan even with a similar culture the unrest kept increasing each turn, only when I sent to there my best spy after a while he was detected and expeled and the unrest start decreasing immediately. Also even if there isn't a spy there, having a high skilled spy in a city does seem to help with unrest.

[QuintusSertorius]

Am I supposed to pull my governors from my home cities and send them out to manage these money holes?.

Yes. The guy who's been conquering successive cities isn't the guy to run them. You need someone with administrative experience (and the ancillaries to go with it).

Also note full stacks aren't much use if those stacks have a lot of levies in them. Any unit with is_peasant (all levies and lots of highlanders) only have half the garrison effect. Cavalry are also pretty useless as garrison units.

[Dooz]

Cavalry are also pretty useless as garrison units.

I feel like I've read a bunch of stuff about cavalry having been used pretty extensively as garrison/police forces in these times, either in unit descriptions in the mod itself or other sources, or both. If units have an attribute that determines their effectiveness in garrisoning and public order, might be a good idea to give it to cav? Or at least certain kinds or something.

[MagusCaligula]

Why would you want cavalry as garrisons if they do not have free upkeep, are more expensive and have few men?

[Dooz]

Historical accuracy.

[bendsley]

For what it's worth, in my last game as the KH, when I conquered Corinth, its dissent never went down. I conquered it within the first couple years, and decades later it still had 80% unrest, never went down one bit. I don't know if it's just hardcoded to have ridiculous amounts of unrest or what. If I had had to deal with cultural unrest on top of that? I don't know if I could have managed the city even with a full garrison, max festivities, and my best governor. Didn't have to deal with Athens, of course. This was 2.2h.

[QuintusSertorius]

I feel like I've read a bunch of stuff about cavalry having been used pretty extensively as garrison/police forces in these times, either in unit descriptions in the mod itself or other sources, or both. If units have an attribute that determines their effectiveness in garrisoning and public order, might be a good idea to give it to cav? Or at least certain kinds or something.

For the wider region, certainly. For the cities themselves, not really. Either way, the distinction between infantry and cavalry for garrisons is hardcoded.

For what it's worth, in my last game as the KH, when I conquered Corinth, its dissent never went down. I conquered it within the first couple years, and decades later it still had 80% unrest, never went down one bit. I don't know if it's just hardcoded to have ridiculous amounts of unrest or what. If I had had to deal with cultural unrest on top of that? I don't know if I could have managed the city even with a full garrison, max festivities, and my best governor. Didn't have to deal with Athens, of course. This was 2.2h.

What kind of government did you have there? Hellenistic factions get penalties in Hellas when they're using something that isn't an Allied Government.

[bendsley]

What kind of government did you have there? Hellenistic factions get penalties in Hellas when they're using something that isn't an Allied Government.

The factional chain of governments, both pre- and post-Congress. I didn't notice any other city in Hellas giving me problems, despite using the factional governments in all of them. How big is the penalty, and is it the same in every province of Hellas?

[QuintusSertorius]

The factional chain of governments, both pre- and post-Congress. I didn't notice any other city in Hellas giving me problems, despite using the factional governments in all of them. How big is the penalty, and is it the same in every province of Hellas?

It's -20% Law and -20% Happiness. For all of Hellas and a few other significant Greek settlements besides, if you're a Hellenistic faction. It's two different things, Autonomia (desire for self-government) and Stasis (internal strife).

[Roma_Victrix]

Are you sure there isn't a very good spy there increasing unrest? Because even if you sent a spy there but he wasn't very good like a fresh recruited spy and the spy there is a high skilled one you'll never detect him. I remember when I conquered Pontos capital with Hayasdan even with a similar culture the unrest kept increasing each turn, only when I sent to there my best spy after a while he was detected and expeled and the unrest start decreasing immediately. Also even if there isn't a spy there, having a high skilled spy in a city does seem to help with unrest.

I forgot to mention spies in my previous post! Yes, they are a pesky little problem and the only way to deal with them is to train and foster your own spies. Assassins can also help if you have high powered assassins that can kill such spies, or for that matter other assassins...and mediocre family members of enemy factions. Starting with diplomats and captains is a safer bet.

Yes. The guy who's been conquering successive cities isn't the guy to run them. You need someone with administrative experience (and the ancillaries to go with it).

Also note full stacks aren't much use if those stacks have a lot of levies in them. Any unit with is_peasant (all levies and lots of highlanders) only have half the garrison effect. Cavalry are also pretty useless as garrison units.

I did not know this about "is_peasant" levy units. Thanks for explaining that!

[bendsley]

It's -20% Law and -20% Happiness. For all of Hellas and a few other significant Greek settlements besides, if you're a Hellenistic faction. It's two different things, Autonomia (desire for self-government) and Stasis (internal strife).

The reasoning seems sound, and I see no problem with the values. But then, if they're equal in all Hellas, that can't explain why Corinth is so much more trouble than anywhere else in Hellas (In fact, it's the only settlement in all Hellas that gave me any problems at all). Any idea what could make up the difference? I know (or at least think I know) some regions have higher levels of unrest built in to account for them being historically difficult to integrate. Is that what was going on?

[melvidh]

For what it's worth, in my last game as the KH, when I conquered Corinth, its dissent never went down. I conquered it within the first couple years, and decades later it still had 80% unrest, never went down one bit. I don't know if it's just hardcoded to have ridiculous amounts of unrest or what. If I had had to deal with cultural unrest on top of that? I don't know if I could have managed the city even with a full garrison, max festivities, and my best governor. Didn't have to deal with Athens, of course. This was 2.2h.

Hello,

In my campaign with KH 2.2k VH/M i conquered Corinth early too and i had an epeiros spy sat down there for ages ( i made peace with Epeiros turn 1 and havent started war with them while they slow down Rome , thing that they doing so far so god) increasing unrest. I needed one good admin FM and big garrison for many, many, many turns there. I dont recall if i got to remove that spy with mines or if he died of an age or was moved out city by IA.
Regards:

melvidh