Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Duchy of Lorraine

[Azrien Fox]

Will they still be playable or only Lorraine/Lotharingen will represent the old Frankish Lotharingia region!?

Edit: The even older Austrasia.

No, no. Flanders and Brabant will still exist as factions after Lorraine is put into the game. I think maybe Flanders is in the works, but I am not 100% certain. As for Brabant, they're already in the game, so I don't know why they would take Brabant out. But, if you look on the campaign map, there is actually another duchy / faction named Trier just north of Lorraine. They would probably be the direct descendants of the Lower Lorraine, the sister duchy that was dissolved in the 1100s, since they are in the same area as Lower Lorraine. So if anything, Lotharingia would be represented by Lorraine and Trier.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Visarion]

No no let that Abgessesene Kurzschwertreiter name... Pixelated Apollo will love it! )


Kidding... yeah Dismounted better.

[Visarion]

Btw it s cavalry not calvary

[Knight2708]

Okay, Abgessesene Kurzschwertreiter is quite a mouthful, so I could either:

Change it to dismounted Kurzschwertreiter for the dismounted unit, and then Kurzschwertreiter for the mounted unit.

Would work imho.

Or...

I was also looking into the types of weapons the coutiliers used; as well as short swords, they used demi-lances or longer spears, like voulge spears. So, what is the translation for 1) short-lance / demi-lance? 2) short-lancer / demi-lancer? 3) long-spear? Could work out some sort of name from those, like "short-lance rider" or "demi-lancer," but in German.

Short lance would be "Kurzlanze", demi-lance is "Halblanze" and long spear is "Langspeer".The unit would either be called "Kurzlanzenreiter" (short lance rider), "Halblanzenreiter"(demi lance rider) or "Langspeerreiter" (long spear rider) or alternatively "Kurzlanzenträger" (short lance carrier/user), "Halblanzenträger" (demi-lance carrier/user) or "Langspeerträger" (long spear carrier/user).
I want to stress though that all of these names are just literal translations and I am not sure whether any of these names would have been used historically. I have been trying to find a German counter-part to the coutilier and have not really been successful. The combatants that I have come across that fill a the most comparable role would be either "Knappen" (squires) or "Edelknechte" (roughly translates to noble followers/servants, although its actual meaning is rather different). "Edelknechte" were as far as I understand members of the low nobility and gentry that completed their training as knights, but could not afford the knighting ceremony and other prerequisites to becoming a knight such as owning multiple horses, but otherwise fought similarly. So they could poaibly work for a mounted unit that is not quite on the level of a knight, but still above the average soldier.

[Azrien Fox]

Would work imho.

Short lance would be "Kurzlanze", demi-lance is "Halblanze" and long spear is "Langspeer".The unit would either be called "Kurzlanzenreiter" (short lance rider), "Halblanzenreiter"(demi lance rider) or "Langspeerreiter" (long spear rider) or alternatively "Kurzlanzenträger" (short lance carrier/user), "Halblanzenträger" (demi-lance carrier/user) or "Langspeerträger" (long spear carrier/user).
I want to stress though that all of these names are just literal translations and I am not sure whether any of these names would have been used historically. I have been trying to find a German counter-part to the coutilier and have not really been successful. The combatants that I have come across that fill a the most comparable role would be either "Knappen" (squires) or "Edelknechte" (roughly translates to noble followers/servants, although its actual meaning is rather different). "Edelknechte" were as far as I understand members of the low nobility and gentry that completed their training as knights, but could not afford the knighting ceremony and other prerequisites to becoming a knight such as owning multiple horses, but otherwise fought similarly. So they could poaibly work for a mounted unit that is not quite on the level of a knight, but still above the average soldier.

Hmm, I think I could probably do Langspeerreiter for the mounted unit and then Abgessene Langspeers for the dismounted unit. That way, the names are simpler and they make more sense.

[Azrien Fox]

Alright, went ahead and updated quite a few of the unit photos that are wwwayyy overdue. Also, I am going to be updating a few of the tier one units, as well as adding the rest of the spear units that need showcasing.

[You_Guess_Who]

Aha! I really like that you used the crossbow animation that uses the pavise in-melee instead of disappearing. This need to be applied to every pavise unit...

[Azrien Fox]

Aha! I really like that you used the crossbow animation that uses the pavise in-melee instead of disappearing. This need to be applied to every pavise unit...

Yeah, I think I moght have given them a shield wall formation as well, so they'll look really good with pavise in shield wall.

Anything else you see need changes?

[You_Guess_Who]

Oh, its not you - its everybody else that need changes about that

[Teutonic]

Oh, its not you - its everybody else that need changes about that

Absolutely! It's a constant source of frustration for me, as far as this mod is concerned. It is getting better, more and more missile units with shields on their backs use them in melee. New units usually are fine. In the first release pretty much none did.

I can understand if some crossbowmen with particularly large pavises don't use them in melee, but Byzantine Heavy Archers (High era)? Come on!

[Azrien Fox]

Oh, its not you - its everybody else that need changes about that

Lol I meant with the lorraine units.

[Visarion]

Love the fact that you keep updating the roster. You still have some "Calvary" here and there. Also can we see tge tier 3 Mounted Alsatian Nobles from another angle, a more general view how you did with the rest of cav?

[Knight2708]

Hmm, I think I could probably do Langspeerreiter for the mounted unit and then Abgessene Langspeers for the dismounted unit. That way, the names are simpler and they make more sense.

Honestly, I would probably stick with "Kurzschwertreiter" and "Dismounted Kurzschwertreiter". "Abgessesene Langspeers" does not really work in German grammar and giving them a name that is the German translation of their French name could show some of the cultural and linguistic exchange between French and German in this area. All things considered having "Abgessesene" in the name is probably not the best idea, as it makes it more difficult for non-German speakers to understand what the unit is and generally the mod seems to follow the naming convention of using the native language name of units but using English for "mounted/dismounted".

On another note Im really liking all the recent updates and changes to the units and am really impressed with how quickly you are making progress with this faction, especially for someone who is (I assume judging by your number of posts) doing this for the first time.

[Visarion]

I would go for Edelknechte... I presume "knechte" is from knight!?

[Locus_Devium]

I would go for Edelknechte... I presume "knechte" is from knight!?

Edelknechte sounds pretty cool even to a german speaker.
But nope the term "Knechte" means servants, farmhands or minions.




Gesendet von meinem SM-G925F mit Tapatalk

[Azrien Fox]

Honestly, I would probably stick with "Kurzschwertreiter" and "Dismounted Kurzschwertreiter". "Abgessesene Langspeers" does not really work in German grammar and giving them a name that is the German translation of their French name could show some of the cultural and linguistic exchange between French and German in this area. All things considered having "Abgessesene" in the name is probably not the best idea, as it makes it more difficult for non-German speakers to understand what the unit is and generally the mod seems to follow the naming convention of using the native language name of units but using English for "mounted/dismounted".

On another note Im really liking all the recent updates and changes to the units and am really impressed with how quickly you are making progress with this faction, especially for someone who is (I assume judging by your number of posts) doing this for the first time.

I see your point, I do not really know the interpretations and actual meanings that it might have on people who would know the definition, seeing as how I dont know any German lol.
Also, yeah this is the first faction Ive made, and I feel as if Ive learned a lot about the faction making process. To be honest, I did not know a thing about medieval armour and technology when I first started like 2 months ago on Lorraine.

[Azrien Fox]

Edelknechte sounds pretty cool even to a german speaker.
But nope the term "Knechte" means servants, farmhands or minions.




Gesendet von meinem SM-G925F mit Tapatalk

Well Im going off the french cavalry formation known as the Lance fournies, and in that formation, the coutilier's role is pretty much to backup the knight, much like a servant. So Edelknechte essentially means "knight's servant" then?

[Locus_Devium]

Well Im going off the french cavalry formation known as the Lance fournies, and in that formation, the coutilier's role is pretty much to backup the knight, much like a servant. So Edelknechte essentially means "knight's servant" then?

"Noble" is only one of different meanings of the term "edel". "Edel" can be used as an adjective to describe something of high quality. In fact often in germanic old literature like the Nibelungenlied nobles are mentioned as "die Edlen" which could be translated as "the ones of high quality" or "the fine ones" while only the term "Adlige" directly means the noble members of an ancient society.
Sometimes food in germany is advertised as "edel" to praise high quality of the product.
If "edel" would mean "noble" in the word "Edelknechte" it would be a Paradox because it would describe non-noble servants (Knechte) as aristocrats (Edle). So the only translation which makes sense is "Edelknechte" as fine/ high-quality servants.
But despite the fact horses were an indicator for elite or richer warriors in medieval warfare the term "edel" could reflect the better quality of these men in form of their high status as horsemen.



Gesendet von meinem SM-G925F mit Tapatalk

[Knight2708]

Well Im going off the french cavalry formation known as the Lance fournies, and in that formation, the coutilier's role is pretty much to backup the knight, much like a servant. So Edelknechte essentially means "knight's servant" then?

As I understand it "Knecht" in this case is used to differentiate them from knights, as these were men who despite completing their knightly training could not afford the financial price of knighthood. "Knecht" is one of those words that just had a ton of different meanings throughout the history of the German language, but one of its more general uses in the Middle Ages seems to have been to describe somebody who is not a knight. The "Edel" denotes that they are nonetheless of noble birth, so essentially they are noble men lesser than knights. I this sense they seem to be different from coutiliers, who as I understand it were commoners, but their role on the battlefield may still be comparable as lesser horsemen supporting "proper" knights.

[Azrien Fox]

Something else is I am trying to figure out if I want to have both free company longbowmen and genoese mercenary crossbowmen for tier 3 archer / crossbow unit. Because my plan was to have both for tier 3, and still have a free company longbowmen for tier 2.

That would mean I'd have 2 ranged units in tier 1, 2 units in tier 2, and 4 in tier 3. I was thinking maybe I could do longbowmen for tier 2 only, and the genoese crossbowmen for tier 3 to even it out. What do you guys think?