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Thread: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

  1. #41
    Diocle's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
    Before you decided to get all sanctimonious, did you at any point consider reading up on the subject you are discussing and passing judgment on? The ECourtHR has no jurisdiction to process the terrorists. Its jurisdiction is clear from articles 32 and onward in the ECHR. It can only process states which are contracting parties to the Convention. Additionally it cannot process a case sua sponte, there must be an application. It can also, at the request of the Committe under article 47, give an advisory opinion on the interpretation of the Convention. In our case, the Court's jurisdiction is based on individual applications of persons who (as several posters, including Adar in the post right above yours, pointed out) are victims of or relatives to the victims of the Beslan school siege events.



    Logic: "You see Pyotr, if we kill hostages before terrorists, there are no hostages for terrorists to kill!". Brilliant. If the Russians had dropped a bomb on the school as a response to the hostage situation, and everyone in there bar one kid died you'd be hailing them as having saved one child, I take it?

    Have you actually bothered to read the case you're currently criticizing? The case, all 659 paragraphs of it not counting dissenting opinions, is available on hudoc as the case of Tagayeva and Others v. Russia 2017-04-13, no. 26562/07, with the judge Linos-Alexandre Sicilianos acting as president.

    I suggest you look at paragraphs 592 to 611 for an answer on why the ECHR ruled against Russia on the use of flamethrowers/thermobaric launchers and tanks to solve a hostage situation. That is without getting into the lacking coordination between the authorities (para. 562-574), including failure to properly instruct and inform medical and fire-fighting services.
    If you read what I write before writing idiotic posts, it'd be better, to help you I wrote that:

    The terrorists ..
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle
    "held more than 1,000 people including 777 children hostage for three days, opening fire when their booby-traps began to explode and the Russian security forces attempted to retake the building. In all, at least 385 people were killed, including 156 children. The youngest was two years old." so, it should be clear, even to those with a less-than-average IQ, that the Russian intervention actually SAVED the lives of 621 childern!
    Mathematics here plays an relevant role, I'll try to help you, but you try to follow me:

    Total children held by terrorists: 777 -
    Total children killed by terrorists: 156 =
    Total children SAVED by Russian => 621!

    This means that the Russians actually saved 621 children on a Total of 777
    from a horrid death by the infamous Chechen terrorists (I do hope there is nobody here so moron to think that if a Chechen commando of fanatics, equipped with heavy weapons, decides to do what they did at Beslan, they were there to make politics instead of a horrid carnage!).
    About flametrowers/thermobaric launchers and/or whatever else: it's a military matter about which neither you, nor me, nor the band of laughable clowns known as ECHR have any basis to questionate about.

    I mean that creatures like this (professor of International Law at Athens): ..

    .. have no authority nor knowledge to criticize the work done by guys like these:

    For this reason the US never accepted to acknowledge the authority of that European club of cicisbei, dandies and time wasters known as ECHR ..

  2. #42
    Harith's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post

    I mean that creatures like this (professor of International Law at Athens): ..

    .. have no authority nor knowledge to criticize the work done by guys like these:
    1. That "creature" is a human being who is qualified to give a legal opinion about a matter
    2. Yes, everyone has to respect the rule of law, even people with cool guns
    3. What you posted is literally the definition of fascism.

  3. #43
    Hmmm's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    If you read what I write before writing idiotic posts, it'd be better, to help you I wrote that:

    The terrorists .. Mathematics here plays an relevant role, I'll try to help you, but you try to follow me:

    Total children held by terrorists: 777 -
    Total children killed by terrorists: 156 =
    Total children SAVED by Russian => 621!

    This means that the Russians actually saved 621 children on a Total of 777
    from a horrid death by the infamous Chechen terrorists (I do hope there is nobody here so moron to think that if a Chechen commando of fanatics, equipped with heavy weapons, decides to do what they did at Beslan, they were there to make politics instead of a horrid carnage!).
    About flametrowers/thermobaric launchers and/or whatever else: it's a military matter about which neither you, nor me, nor the band of laughable clowns known as ECHR have any basis to questionate about.

    I mean that creatures like this (professor of International Law at Athens): ..

    .. have no authority nor knowledge to criticize the work done by guys like these:

    For this reason the US never accepted to acknowledge the authority of that European club of cicisbei, dandies and time wasters known as ECHR ..
    Your condescension is unwarranted. Everyone on the planet understands the "mathematics" (it's basic arithmetic) behind your logic (and I'm being generous by calling it logic). The problem is that you refuse to acknowledge that several of the children were killed by the ridiculously over the top amount of force used by the Russian counter-terrorism forces. The issue is that there are blatantly better ways of intervening than what the Russian did, which would have resulted in fewer deaths - including actually bothering to speak to medical and fire-fighting services, but the "badasses" at the Spetsnaz seem to think that's beneath them or were too stupid to do so. Precision? What's that?

    By your logic any amount of pointless force is justifiable so long as at least one hostage makes it out alive because you operate under the notion that every hostage is effectively counted as already dead (by terrorists hands, regardless of who actually killed them). My example with the bomb is entirely appropriate, suppose the Russians dropped a bomb on the school instead of shooting at it with tanks and thermobaric launchers, and suppose only one child survived. One child saved, according to the same "mathematics" you displayed above, since in your world everyone dead automatically counts as having been killed by the terrorists:
    777 children held by terrorists -
    776 children "killed by terrorists" =
    1 total children SAVED by Russian.

    Or, to reiterate: #missionaccomplished.



    But it seems there's no reasoning with you, either. Should have known better given the stunning ignorance displayed by your posts - your use of a picture from Rainbow Six to "represent" the Spetsnaz certainly solidified this. Next we'll start making comparisons to Call of Duty and Battlefield, right?



    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Honestly, hmm, you're just repeating yourself like a broken record - all your arguments have already been debunked.
    I keep repeating myself because you guys keep bringing up the same nonsense over and over. Taking a completely uncritical stance toward the Spetsnaz actions is "debunking" now? Honestly your "arguments" deserve ridicule.

    This is essentially your argumentative technique in this thread:
    1. Begin a thread with a blatantly false title, refuse to actually give a proper background to the case and what it's about, and misrepresent it as if the ECHR blamed the terrorist attacks on Russia. Complain about "Russophobia".
    2. When confronted with the obvious falsity of the thread title and content, pretend like you did nothing wrong.
    3. Argue that we should take a 100 % uncritical stance toward anything the FSB or Spetsnaz did. If anyone criticizes them on the obviously poor judgment displayed in bringing tanks to a hostage situation and firing without any idea about who may be hit, or on their failure to coordinate between authorities, berate them for having the audacity to do so. ZOMFG IT IS CLEARLY AN INSULT TO RUSSIAHHHH!1!!! Meeeeeeeehhhh SPETSNAZ R CLEARLY DEH INFALLIBULZ!!!!1!!!
    4. Pretend like the ECourtHR "dug up the case", i.e. fill up the thread with posts displaying a total ignorance on the subject of the ECHR, the jurisdiction of the Court, and how the entire process works.
    5. When confronted with this, ignore it.
    6. Dont forget to complain about the ECourtHR not doing the same to the USA, ignoring the fact that the USA isnt a contracting party. Ignore when confronted.
    7. Rinse and repeat.

    Every so often, add:
    8. Claim you have debunked all of your opponents arguments.

    This is precisely why I wrote that there's no reasoning with you and why I cut you off from further discussion. It's the reason I'm going to continue to do so on the substance of the thread. Additionally my nick is spelled with three "m", I'd appreciate if you bothered to spell it correctly. It's arguably the easiest nick in the entire forums.
    Last edited by Hmmm; April 17, 2017 at 01:12 AM.
    I had a monumental idea this morning, but I didn't like it.

    Samuel Goldwyn

  4. #44

    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
    Your condescension is unwarranted. Everyone on the planet understands the "mathematics" (it's basic arithmetic) behind your logic (and I'm being generous by calling it logic). The problem is that you refuse to acknowledge that several of the children were killed by the ridiculously over the top amount of force used by the Russian counter-terrorism forces. The issue is that there are blatantly better ways of intervening than what the Russian did, which would have resulted in fewer deaths - including actually bothering to speak to medical and fire-fighting services, but the "badasses" at the Spetsnaz seem to think that's beneath them or were too stupid to do so. Precision? What's that?

    By your logic any amount of pointless force is justifiable so long as at least one hostage makes it out alive because you operate under the notion that every hostage is effectively counted as already dead (by terrorists hands, regardless of who actually killed them). My example with the bomb is entirely appropriate, suppose the Russians dropped a bomb on the school instead of shooting at it with tanks and thermobaric launchers, and suppose only one child survived. One child saved, according to the same "mathematics" you displayed above, since in your world everyone dead automatically counts as having been killed by the terrorists:
    777 children held by terrorists -
    776 children "killed by terrorists" =
    1 total children SAVED by Russian.

    Or, to reiterate: #missionaccomplished.



    But it seems there's no reasoning with you, either. Should have known better given the stunning ignorance displayed by your posts - your use of a picture from Rainbow Six to "represent" the Spetsnaz certainly solidified this. Next we'll start making comparisons to Call of Duty and Battlefield, right?





    I keep repeating myself because you guys keep bringing up the same nonsense over and over. Taking a completely uncritical stance toward the Spetsnaz actions is "debunking" now? Honestly your "arguments" deserve ridicule.

    This is essentially your argumentative technique in this thread:
    1. Begin a thread with a blatantly false title, refuse to actually give a proper background to the case and what it's about, and misrepresent it as if the ECHR blamed the terrorist attacks on Russia. Complain about "Russophobia".
    2. When confronted with the obvious falsity of the thread title and content, pretend like you did nothing wrong.
    3. Argue that we should take a 100 % uncritical stance toward anything the FSB or Spetsnaz did. If anyone criticizes them on the obviously poor judgment displayed in bringing tanks to a hostage situation and firing without any idea about who may be hit, or on their failure to coordinate between authorities, berate them for having the audacity to do so. ZOMFG IT IS CLEARLY AN INSULT TO RUSSIAHHHH!1!!! Meeeeeeeehhhh SPETSNAZ R CLEARLY DEH INFALLIBULZ!!!!1!!!
    4. Pretend like the ECourtHR "dug up the case", i.e. fill up the thread with posts displaying a total ignorance on the subject of the ECHR, the jurisdiction of the Court, and how the entire process works.
    5. When confronted with this, ignore it.
    6. Dont forget to complain about the ECourtHR not doing the same to the USA, ignoring the fact that the USA isnt a contracting party. Ignore when confronted.
    7. Rinse and repeat.

    Every so often, add:
    8. Claim you have debunked all of your opponents arguments.

    This is precisely why I wrote that there's no reasoning with you and why I cut you off from further discussion. It's the reason I'm going to continue to do so on the substance of the thread. Additionally my nick is spelled with three "m", I'd appreciate if you bothered to spell it correctly. It's arguably the easiest nick in the entire forums.
    Sorry, but you simply have no clue whatsoever what you're talking about. How the hell do you know how many hostages got killed or not by what weapon, what do you know what the assault tactics and what the optimal one would be and finally what kind of moronic logic are you using when you're so cock-sure that assaulting the terrorists, while these terrorists were in the process of triggering their bombs and shooting hostages, actually killed more kids than if there wasn't an assault? Answer: You don't, or you only delude yourself into thinking you do, just like the judges pretend to be experts on special forces tactics.

    Honestly, the aggressive absurdity presented in your posts would've been laughable, had the topic not been such a tragedy. As for your moaning about me using the 'wrong thread title' and other nonsense: learn to read between the lines.

  5. #45
    Hmmm's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikitn View Post
    Sorry, but you simply have no clue whatsoever what you're talking about. How the hell do you know how many hostages got killed or not by what weapon, what do you know what the assault tactics and what the optimal one would be and finally what kind of moronic logic are you using when you're so cock-sure that assaulting the terrorists, while these terrorists were in the process of triggering their bombs and shooting hostages, actually killed more kids than if there wasn't an assault? Answer: You don't, or you only delude yourself into thinking you do, just like the judges pretend to be experts on special forces tactics.

    Honestly, the aggressive absurdity presented in your posts would've been laughable, had the topic not been such a tragedy. As for your moaning about me using the 'wrong thread title' and other nonsense: learn to read between the lines.
    1. Lol at "reading between the lines". No, your OP and title were straight up lies and hyperbole, plain and simple.

    2. Nobody suggested that there shouldn't have been an assault. What is criticized is the straight up braindead idea of firing thermobaric launchers, tank anti-personnel rounds, and flamethrowers into a school full of children in an effort to save the children. The assault could have, and should have, been better planned and the entire operation should have been better coordinated. There aren't any excuses for the incompetence displayed by Russian counter-terrorism forces. Most importantly, the Russian government failed to explain how they discriminated between hostages and terrorists in their use of this overwhelming firepower and simply insisted that "no hostages were affected" (with no basis to back this up), even though their "investigation" after the fact concerning (among other things) the causes of death was entirely lacking (incl. no explanation provided for at least a third of the casualties).

    3. I'm done with this thread. You're at this point arguing against straw men (big surprise, you started the ing thread that way). Did the decision hurt your precious feelings, Nikitn? Would you like a tissue?
    Last edited by Hmmm; April 17, 2017 at 05:35 AM.
    I had a monumental idea this morning, but I didn't like it.

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  6. #46

    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
    1. Lol at "reading between the lines". No, your OP and title were straight up lies and hyperbole, plain and simple.

    2. Nobody suggested that there shouldn't have been an assault. What is criticized is the straight up braindead idea of firing thermobaric launchers, tank anti-personnel rounds, and flamethrowers into a school full of children in an effort to save the children. The assault could have, and should have, been better planned and the entire operation should have been better coordinated. There aren't any excuses for the incompetence displayed by Russian counter-terrorism forces. Most importantly, the Russian government failed to explain how they discriminated between hostages and terrorists in their use of this overwhelming firepower and simply insisted that "no hostages were affected" (with no basis to back this up), even though their "investigation" after the fact concerning (among other things) the causes of death was entirely lacking (incl. no explanation provided for at least a third of the casualties).

    3. I'm done with this thread. You're at this point arguing against straw men (big surprise, you started the ing thread that way). Did the decision hurt your precious feelings, Nikitn? Would you like a tissue?

    You are pretty much criticizing the way this assault was done for the sake of criticizing it, you will inevitably disagree with that so I'll just say that there are simply a lot of logical fallacies and inability to provide a sound argument (Major premises->minor premises). Lastly when did you last saw a perfectly executes operation by the western powers, terrorist attacks in Paris? Seeing the video of how they hide behind each other and shoot like street thugs, and I don't mean to be rude, but Swedish police aren't doing so well with immigrant either. Good general would sacrifice 3 man to save 4 right? Well the lesser evil was just so obvious in this case, overwhelming amount of people were saved.
    Last edited by Tiberios; April 19, 2017 at 08:35 AM. Reason: Off topic

  7. #47

    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by VM_Mort View Post
    You are pretty much criticizing the way this assault was done for the sake of criticizing it, you will inevitably disagree with that so I'll just say that there are simply a lot of logical fallacies and inability to provide a sound argument (Major premises->minor premises). Lastly when did you last saw a perfectly executes operation by the western powers, terrorist attacks in Paris? Seeing the video of how they hide behind each other and shoot like street thugs, and I don't mean to be rude, but Swedish police aren't doing so well with immigrant either. Good general would sacrifice 3 man to save 4 right? Well the lesser evil was just so obvious in this case, overwhelming amount of people were saved.
    The alternative in this case was to negotiate with the terrorists for the safe extraction of hostages. You could also ask America for help. Or UK, or France, Germany, Italy, Belgium. I also don't know a case in which the use of flamethrowers is needed in a hostage situation. Pretty much all countries that are against terrorism.

    The Russians on this board are embarrassing me. Part of being a Patriot is admitting where your Government has been wrong and why it should improve and do better for its people.

  8. #48

    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Again, US literally did the same thing in Waco siege and used tanks on a compound full of women and children. Except where FSB had no choice in Beslan, idiots from ATF/FBI that made a decision of using armor with HE ammunition against a building they knew is full of civilians.
    And we are yet to see any investigation to ATF/FBI's criminal negligence.

  9. #49

    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    The alternative in this case was to negotiate with the terrorists for the safe extraction of hostages. You could also ask America for help. Or UK, or France, Germany, Italy, Belgium. I also don't know a case in which the use of flamethrowers is needed in a hostage situation. Pretty much all countries that are against terrorism.

    The Russians on this board are embarrassing me. Part of being a Patriot is admitting where your Government has been wrong and why it should improve and do better for its people.



    Well, when was the last time you saw any of those countries asking Russia for help? Being isolated leads to the general feeling of alienation and people become more patriotic and nationalistic. You are being delusional if you think religious fanatics would've let them out. Frankly the person who is ashamed of his country is not a Patriot, especially when it comes to Russians.

  10. #50

    Default Re: ECHR: Russia failed during the Beslan Siege

    Quote Originally Posted by VM_Mort View Post
    Well, when was the last time you saw any of those countries asking Russia for help? Being isolated leads to the general feeling of alienation and people become more patriotic and nationalistic. You are being delusional if you think religious fanatics would've let them out. Frankly the person who is ashamed of his country is not a Patriot, especially when it comes to Russians.
    People who cannot admit that they can be wrong, or have a weakness, are not strong. Failure to admit where you went wrong is only going to have you repeat the same mistake again. By all means, if Russians are happy with the results of the Beslan siege, I pity your children and loved ones if they are ever in a similar hostage situation in Russia, where security forces will storm the building with no regard for civilian casualties.

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