Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

[PointOfViewGun]

This conversation is going in circles. I have asked you over and over to show us any evidence that the island is turkish (ie back up the turkish claims). If you are unable to do so, then everything else is irrelevant because Turkey has no claim on the island at all.
The fact that you have not paraded any evidence so far, means that you are unable to do so, therefore it's none of Turkey's business to so much as speak about these islands.

Or, perhaps I don't really care about your straw man argument efforts that stem from your failure to come up with a suitable answer for your position to my initial question. I also do not represent Turkey. Good luck with continuously insisting on your pathetic tangent.

[Kyriakos]

Pretty sure that Italy allowed Turkey to keep Agathonisi after Italy (which we know how well faired in ww1) ruined Turkey in the 1911 war and got all of the dodecanese. Yes, Setekh, your utterly unbacked by any evidence claim rings as very serious. Again, the issue is not your own claim, but that such rogue claims are uttered by Erdogan and his goons in government. "Sad!", as Erdo's caller, Trump would say.

[PointOfViewGun]

Pretty sure that Italy allowed Turkey to keep Agathonisi after Italy (which we know how well faired in ww1) ruined Turkey in the 1911 war and got all of the dodecanese. Yes, Setekh, your utterly unbacked by any evidence claim rings as very serious. Again, the issue is not your own claim, but that such rogue claims are uttered by Erdogan and his goons in government. "Sad!", as Erdo's caller, Trump would say.

At this point, I'm not surprised you'd cite Trump... For starters, you can't really talk about "my" "unbacked" claim while talking about Turkey in 1911. Just for the sake of clarity, can you please explicitly state what is my claim you're referring to there?

[ioannis76]

Or, perhaps I don't really care about your straw man argument efforts that stem from your failure to come up with a suitable answer for your position to my initial question. I also do not represent Turkey. Good luck with continuously insisting on your pathetic tangent.

The problem: If you cannot prove that the island belongs to Turkey, and given that the last owner (before Greece) was Italy, then Turkey has no claim on them, and no right to question their ownership. Perhaps Italy does, but definitely not Turkey. Given that Greece has citizens and state infrastructure on the islands, including troops, and has had for some decades now, Greece has a powerful argument, even if we were to assume that there is no treaty. Clear?

[PointOfViewGun]

The problem: If you cannot prove that the island belongs to Turkey, and given that the last owner (before Greece) was Italy, then Turkey has no claim on them, and no right to question their ownership. Perhaps Italy does, but definitely not Turkey. Given that Greece has citizens and state infrastructure on the islands, including troops, and has had for some decades now, Greece has a powerful argument, even if we were to assume that there is no treaty. Clear?

That's not really my problem.

[ioannis76]

True, it's Turkey's problem.
In the meantime, we had a new provocation, this time about Kastelorizo:

http://en.protothema.gr/turkey-issue...-kastellorizo/

Turkey issues NAVTEX blockading Greek island of Kastellorizo!
May, 09 2017 Author: Thema Newsroom
Sources in Athens say it aims to dispute Greek SRR in area
Tensions between Greece and Turkey are rising after the latter issued an international warning Navigational Telex signal (NAVTEX) effectively blockading access around the Greek island of Kastellorizo. Military sources in Athens note that the Navtex signal has completely encircled the Greek isle, which is located only 2km off the western coast of Turkey. According to mignatiou.com, Ankara announced the start of search and rescue exercises in the Aegean with the participation of the Turkish navy and coastguard. This means that Greece will not be permitted exercise its sovereign territorial rights around a Greek island while the navtex is enforced. The signal says that the exercise will take place on Tuesday between 5pm and 8pm in “foreign territorial waters”. Sources believe Turkey issued the signal in an effort to dispute Greece’s Search and Rescue Regiment (SRR) in the area.

This is the Turkish NAVTEX:
MEDITERRANEAN SEA TURKISH NAVY AND TURKISH COAST GUARD WILL CONDUCT SEARCH AND RESCUE EXERCISE ON 09 MAY 17 FROM 1700Z TO 2000Z OUT OF FOREIGN TERRITORIAL WATERS IN AREA BOUNDED BY:
36 10.00 N – 029 50.00 E
35 50.00 N – 029 50.00 E
35 50.00 N – 029 20.00 E
36 14.70 N – 029 20.00 E
CAUTION ADVISED

Kastelorizo is a big thorn in Turkey's side, as its existence actually blocks what would have been the expansion of the turkish EEZ between Greece and Cyprus. Here is what the EEZ looks like now:



So, what Turkey does is it completely ignores the existence of Kastelorizo. Here is the EEZ according to Turkey (image at the bottom):

[PointOfViewGun]

True, it's Turkey's problem.
In the meantime, we had a new provocation, this time about Kastelorizo:
http://en.protothema.gr/turkey-issue...-kastellorizo/
Kastelorizo is a big thorn in Turkey's side, as its existence actually blocks what would have been the expansion of the turkish EEZ between Greece and Cyprus. Here is what the EEZ looks like now:
So, what Turkey does is it completely ignores the existence of Kastelorizo. Here is the EEZ according to Turkey (image at the bottom):

Since, this seems to only exist in Greek websites which all points at the exact same Greek website as a source, do you have an actual source?

[ioannis76]

LOL, omg, it never happened.

Who else would you expect to mention the issue? Japan?

[PointOfViewGun]

LOL, omg, it never happened.

Who else would you expect to mention the issue? Japan?

Given that they're reporting coordinates it's bound to be taken from an actual official source. Since this is a public warning it should show up in a database of sorts. Interestingly, none of the Greek sources indicate where they got the info.

[AnthoniusII]

The maps prodused by UN commite when UN created the latest version of Sea Law.
Only 2 countries REFUSED to sign the UN Sea Law.
USA
Turkey.
That is why in your Turkish websites you will find those maps, nore the treaties or anything relating.
People of Turkey live in an Internet and Information "Dark Ages".
If Erdogan or the Goverments before him , would allow Turkish people to know about International Law they would have doupts and doupts do NOT produse fanatics and Erdogan needs FANATICS.
Do you understand now why those maps are unknown to you?
The original maps were published in 1992! How old were you in that year?
Were you old enough in 1987 when war was to close to happen to understand what Erdogan is trying to do with Turkey and its people?
I was 17 years old and close enough to draft..I know what the fear of a real war is like. That is why I understand perfectly what this mad man called Erdogan or the new Suleiman -as he sees himself- is trying to do.
No one mentioned that Erdogan last week called the youth of Turkey to follow Mehmed II's example...To become qonquerors! Have those young men and women ever thought that dead people can not be qonquerors?
What was Erdogan's message in that speach? He prepairs new "Ghazis" to a new holly war as he threatened EU a month ago? I must admit that Erdogan works with a plan. In 2003 he said that Turkey must be selfeffient in weapons productions in 2023 to follow its own path. The current IDEF proved his planning. Only blind people can not see that Erdogan is world's Sauron. He prepered his forces and now he is about to bring darkness in to the world.
But Erdogan ,while he knows history quite well- (i liked the trick with the 8 army fefuges that follow the same trick with Mehmet II and the "exiled Turkish prince") he seams that some history lessons forgot to read.
Human history is full of surprices. Italy in 1940 was also a superpower. Greece was also a bankcruped country. This did not stop Greece to defeat Italy. Italy was lucky that had Germany to interfere. Does Turkey has a somekind of "Germany" to save it from dissaster if war will go wrong?

[ioannis76]

This exercise (Seawolf 2017) has been dubbed a war rehearsal by Greek media. Let's see:
http://www.economywatch.gr/two-turki...h-agathonissi/

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2017...ters-airspace/

In the afternoon, during the Turkish naval exercise “Deniz Kurdu,” two ships of the Turkish Navy carrying missiles entered Greek waters on the eastern and northern coasts of Agathonisi island and stayed there for about 20 minutes.

The Turkish warships were followed closely by Hellenic Navy patrol boats, while two Greek armed warships approached the area and monitored the Turkish ship moves until they left.

Meanwhile, 44 Turkish aircraft entered Greek airspace in the Northeast, Central and Southeast Aegean, making a total 141 violations of national airspace, while nine dogfights between Greece’s airforce and Turkish fighters were recorded.

Specifically, the Greek airforce recorded 20 Turkish F-16 fighter jets, flying in eight formations, five CN-235 (spy planes), and 19 helicopters violating the Athens FIR.

Of the 20 F-16, 14 of them were armed. These aircraft were identified and intercepted in accordance with international rules.

Greece’s Foreign Ministry issued a formal complaint stating that, “The current incident of violation of Greek territorial waters by Turkish naval vessels in the area of ​​Agathonisi constitutes a flagrant violation of International Law.”
- See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/2017....XUGrZC0i.dpuf

[ioannis76]

And here is the EU warning Turkey over the 141 violations of Greek air space in one day:

https://www.euractiv.com/section/enl...es-in-one-day/

EU warns Turkey after it violates Greek airspace 141 times in one day

What is Setekh going to say now? That these violations never happened, and have been fabricated by the Greek media?

[PointOfViewGun]

What is Setekh going to say now? That these violations never happened, and have been fabricated by the Greek media?

I can only comment on the lack of standards you base these on. For example, your EU warning Turkey article merely has a website employee supposedly contacting an EU spokesperson. As a result, the statements this "EU spokesperson" gave to the euroactiv employee only exists in Greek websites or articles written by Greeks. Your GreekReporter article uses a picture from 2013 as part of the military drills of 2017. Last, but most importantly, we have no information where these supposed airspace violations occur. Do they occur over islands Turkey regards as gray zones? Do they fall inside the 6-10 nm belt? (Greece claims 10 nm of airspace while Turkey only recognize 6 nm) So on and on. If I was to base my knowledge on issues with Greece on random article with uncorroborated information then it would be a mess...

[ioannis76]

The excuse that the photograph was from 2013 is quite pathetic, even for the standards of your posts.
Of course, here it is from another source, with the Secretary here acting as the apologist:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...Aegean-Islands

You can keep pretending that the violations never occurred. When we have another government in Greece (and I do not mean the government of the political clown Mitsotakis), turkish f16s violating Greek airspace will be shot down, and we will see where they fall. . Besides, if Turkey has the right to shoot down aircraft violating her airspace, so does Greece.

[PointOfViewGun]

The excuse that the photograph was from 2013 is quite pathetic, even for the standards of your posts.
Of course, here it is from another source, with the Secretary here acting as the apologist:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...Aegean-Islands

You can keep pretending that the violations never occurred. When we have another government in Greece (and I do not mean the government of the political clown Mitsotakis), turkish f16s violating Greek airspace will be shot down, and we will see where they fall. . Besides, if Turkey has the right to shoot down aircraft violating her airspace, so does Greece.

I'm not saying violations never occur. I'm just saying that you're doing a very bad job at providing substance for them. This link you post now is a little bit all over the place. In the beginning it accuses Turkey of violating Greek airspace based on what Greece says. Then while trying to substantiate it it talks about Turkish jets entering Athens FIR without prior information which is a totally different issue than violating airspace. FIR does not equal to a country's airspace.

[ioannis76]

Thank you for replying and giving me the opportunity to post yet another link of the violations:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...ns-sinigle-day

And for further information, here is a chart given by the HAF (Hellenic Air Force):



The chart reads: Year/International civil airspace organization violations/ Violations of National Airspace (third column)/ armed formations/ engagements (dogfights)/ Overflights over national land/ total number of aircraft (which of course means how many times the same or another aircraft commits a violation).

So, since you admit that violations DO occur, and since we have neatly set the types and numbers of violations of the Hellenic Airspace, my question is, why do they occur? Does Turkey want to engage in war? I remind you, that Turkey shot down the Russian jet over ONE SINGLE violation. Should Greece, in your opinion do the same?

[PointOfViewGun]

Thank you for replying and giving me the opportunity to post yet another link of the violations:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...ns-sinigle-day

And for further information, here is a chart given by the HAF (Hellenic Air Force):

The chart reads: Year/International civil airspace organization violations/ Violations of National Airspace (third column)/ armed formations/ engagements (dogfights)/ Overflights over national land/ total number of aircraft (which of course means how many times the same or another aircraft commits a violation).

So, since you admit that violations DO occur, and since we have neatly set the types and numbers of violations of the Hellenic Airspace, my question is, why do they occur? Does Turkey want to engage in war? I remind you, that Turkey shot down the Russian jet over ONE SINGLE violation. Should Greece, in your opinion do the same?

You're telling me that each time I point out the discrepancies or short comings of your posts you're just going to jump to an other one while ignoring all of it? Amazing!

[ioannis76]

You do not expose discrepancies, you make rather pathetic attempts to derail the subject. The one with the photograph was characteristic, as we all know that in news they usually use photographs that they have on their file, because it's not about the photograph (unless they are using the specific optic material to demonstrate something, in which case they use video more often than not) but about the TEXT.
There are no discrepancies, therefore. And as the chart shows, we are counting the violations of the ICAO as different violations than the violations of the National Air Space, and the Overflights over Land mass. The HAF is VERY analytical and VERY specific and professional in the data it gives. And yes, there were 141 violations of Greek national air space. Since you admit to violating air space (but you question the frequency this occurs), I ask you again. For ONE violation of the Turkish Air space by the Russians (IF it occurred at all, but never mind), Turkey shot down one Russian aircraft. Would Greece be justified in doing the same for Turkey?

[PointOfViewGun]

You do not expose discrepancies, you make rather pathetic attempts to derail the subject. The one with the photograph was characteristic, as we all know that in news they usually use photographs that they have on their file, because it's not about the photograph (unless they are using the specific optic material to demonstrate something, in which case they use video more often than not) but about the TEXT.
There are no discrepancies, therefore. And as the chart shows, we are counting the violations of the ICAO as different violations than the violations of the National Air Space, and the Overflights over Land mass. The HAF is VERY analytical and VERY specific and professional in the data it gives. And yes, there were 141 violations of Greek national air space. Since you admit to violating air space (but you question the frequency this occurs), I ask you again. For ONE violation of the Turkish Air space by the Russians (IF it occurred at all, but never mind), Turkey shot down one Russian aircraft. Would Greece be justified in doing the same for Turkey?

Good, well proper, journalists usually credit the photo's they use not to take over credit or mislead the reader. That was the shortest point I made on how low the standards you were using for the articles you were posting. Interesting how you chose to dwell over that one while ignoring the others... Now, you try to brush off the discrepancy in the Express article's narrative by using the numbers you post from HAF which is an entirely invalid train of thought in itself.

One thing I forgot to mention is that ICAO is only applicable to civilian aircraft. It specifically mentions this in Article 3 of the convention. Military aircraft, which is deemed to be state aircraft in this article, is not bound by its rules. So, if we're talking about Turkish military jets violating the Athens FIR we're talking about an invalid situation. If the Greek air force is trying to pass this as something legitimate I don't really have much to say. Perhaps, the HAF is not that analytical?

[ioannis76]

One thing I forgot to mention is that ICAO is only applicable to civilian aircraft. It specifically mentions this in Article 3 of the convention.

Show me the source. Because here, I see quite the opposite from what you say:

Violations of national airspace and Infringements of Air Traffic Regulations (ICAO)
A violation of national airspace takes place when a foreign aircraft enters without permission (diplomatic clearance) into national airspace.
An infringement of air traffic regulations takes place whenever an aircraft disregards the internationally established flight rules within a Flight Information Region (FIR). Therefore, whenever an aircraft enters ATHINAI FIR without prior submission of a flight plan it infringes the air traffic regulations established by the competent Hellenic Air Traffic Services (ATS) authorities according to the relevant ICAO provisions and recommendations, as well as the international practice. The air traffic regulations aim at ensuring the safety of aviation within ATHINAI FIR.
Turkey, which for decades respected and complied with the air traffic regulations within ATHINAI FIR, ceased doing so since 1974 in the framework of an effort to promote a platform of political claims devoid of any legal basis against Greece, aiming at altering the status quo in the Aegean which has been firmly set out in the relevant international treaties and agreements and the rules of international law.
Hence, Turkey disregards the need for state aircraft to respect the ICAO rules and principles established for ensuring the safety of air navigation, which is the basic aim of ICAO, arguing that the 1944 Chicago Convention does not apply to state aircraft and deliberately ignoring the ICAO air traffic safety provisions and guidelines.
The co-ordination of air traffic, concerning both civil and military aircraft in international airspace, is absolutely necessary for the safety of air navigation and consists in the exchange of all the flight information within an FIR. In this respect the submission of a flight plan is the basic rule of ICAO and accomplishes the “due regard” that state aircraft are obliged to have for the safety of civilian air traffic according to article 3 (d) of the Chicago Convention.

http://www.geetha.mil.gr/en/violatio...-of-terms.html


It is quite ridiculous when one person who is obviously not an expert in aviation attempts to question what organisations which specifically handle such issues state with idiotic comments. THIS is what derailing a topic looks like.
The truth is that two days ago, there were 141 violations of Greek airspace. Even you admit that there are violations, you just question the quantity. I ask you again, and I will not stop asking until you stop avoiding the question and answer:
Would Greece be justified in shooting down a turkish aircraft, just like Turkey did with the Russian jet in Syria? Yes, Greece would be justified, or No, Greece would not be justified (because there are double standards).
It's quite simple.