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Thread: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

  1. #321

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    You know what, never mind. You're all so full of yourselves and incapable of entertaining alternate ideas that I'm no longer so sure of the quality of your historical analysis. Enjoy your "short pikes" that are based on a transcription error and an improper understanding of how shields work.
    I was so shocked at reading such a post that I went through your post history to understand why you were so bitter.

    A piece of constructive criticism - when engaging in these types of dialogue, your aim should be to bring your reader around to your view. So far (in all the examples I can see), you've (a) stated a position, (b) provided no basis for your position and instead elected to attack the position of others, (c) thrown a tantrum when nobody agrees with you and degraded the conversation to personal attacks. None of your strategy will lend your argument any weight, and honestly it comes across as a really ugly way to conduct yourself on a public forum.

    I have no doubt that you have ideas of value to add, you just need to find a more diplomatic way of expressing them and engaging other participants in civilised discussion.

    On another note, it strikes me that Rhodes still feels somewhat "unfinished". I know I've seen posts here and there discussing some changes (in particular, I liked the idea that less emphasis was to be placed on slingers and more on naval combat), and just wondered if the dev team are contemplating a minor refresh at this stage, or if it isn't yet on the to-do list?
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; October 23, 2018 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Merged posts

  2. #322

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Yes, University of Gdansk it was I was supposed to write my PhD on Armies of Pontus but like I said, life had other plan for me Sekunda is great person, really funny and inteligent guy. What I like about him is that, while controversial at times, he is not a type of person who never admits to be wrong, which he does in few places in the book I posted above.

    I wanted to post screens of the Leukaspides part but I forgot that there is an entire chapter dedicated to them and posting 20+ pages is a bit too much I highly recommend entire book.
    thanks, i was considering to buying that book a few weeks ago, will place it on my wish list.

    i always loved Pontus. not too sure way tbh. It was my favorite faction in both RTW and various MT2W mods (though strangely it doesnt have quite the same 'feel' to it in vanilla Rome 2). a fascinating faction and their military is understudied, i'd imagine? in fact i havent got a single book specifically on Pontic military, now that i come to think about it. an amazing mix of different cultures, traditions and styles of warfare.

    i wonder, is Sekuna aware of video games that focus on ancient warfare, whats his take on it? generally, it'd be interesting to know how academia views the industry and its potential as an educational platform/study tool. thanks

  3. #323
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss View Post
    generally, it'd be interesting to know how academia views the industry and its potential as an educational platform/study tool. thanks
    I'm afraid that the opinion of the industry among the scholars is sadly not very positive. They are, no doubt, few progressive minds out there, but in general they tend to look down on it. Some of my former university colleagues who are still doing their PhD, or are already on the postdoc, are familiar with TW series and perhaps they still play from time to time as a form of entertainment, but I don't actually know anybody who would take it seriously as an educational tool.

    Which is a bit of a shame, in my opinion, as there's definitely good potential in these games to convey the historical knowledge. One has to be carful in that approach, of course, but once used properly it could really be a useful tool. If I were a teacher I would definitely encourage my pupils to try and learn from these games. Information technology cannot fully substitute the books, but it can definitely have a greater appeal, especially for the youngsters, and can in turn motivate them to read and research further.

  4. #324
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Geffalrus View Post
    You know what, never mind. You're all so full of yourselves and incapable of entertaining alternate ideas that I'm no longer so sure of the quality of your historical analysis. Enjoy your "short pikes" that are based on a transcription error and an improper understanding of how shields work.
    Hey bud,As a fellow Virginian and DeI fan, I'd hate to see you go out like this. Honestly. Collect yourself and return when it suits you. You spazzed out, no doubt; but I'm sure we don't want you feeling alienated.

  5. #325

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Dead*Man*Wilson View Post
    Hey bud,As a fellow Virginian and DeI fan, I'd hate to see you go out like this. Honestly. Collect yourself and return when it suits you. You spazzed out, no doubt; but I'm sure we don't want you feeling alienated.
    @ Geffalrus As a long time reader of the DeI forum before I made a TWC account, I can unequivocally say that you’ve been one of my favorite regular writers here. I’ve always appreciated your educated opinions and sense of humor. If I were in your shoes I’d probably be too uncomfortable/angry to come back here but if you change your mind you’ll be welcomed back, by the 2 of us at the very least. Cheers!

  6. #326
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Epanastatis View Post
    On another note, it strikes me that Rhodes still feels somewhat "unfinished". I know I've seen posts here and there discussing some changes (in particular, I liked the idea that less emphasis was to be placed on slingers and more on naval combat), and just wondered if the dev team are contemplating a minor refresh at this stage, or if it isn't yet on the to-do list?
    Main deal is that Rhodes was never a major land military power so their army is already probably even better than it ever was in history.
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  7. #327

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Main deal is that Rhodes was never a major land military power so their army is already probably even better than it ever was in history.
    True - this begs an interesting question. How useful is naval power in DeI? Can you realistically repel any invasion of Rhodes with a capable enough fleet. I remember there was one guy on this forum who used to complain extensively about “navy ninjas” spoiling his fun. In the current iteration of DeI, can a bog standard 20 stack fleet of Triremes stop transport stacks from reaching your shores with relative ease?

  8. #328
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Even less than 20 ship fleet will stop 20 transports with ease.
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  9. #329

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Even less than 20 ship fleet will stop 20 transports with ease.
    Good to know! How easy would it be for a transport fleet to slip past said Trireme fleet? I've heard that transports became super sluggish with the CA update that brought Empire Divided.

  10. #330
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Transports are super sluggish since one of first patches. There is no way that transport fleet will "outrun" regular fleet on campaign map as due to some weird design decisions, you can't separate their speed, meaning that if you increase/decrease speed of one you also affect the other.
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  11. #331

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Where can I download this? or is it in the main game?

  12. #332
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    It is in the main mod for few months now.
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  13. #333

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Main deal is that Rhodes was never a major land military power so their army is already probably even better than it ever was in history.
    I don't think the land roster needs much changing - maybe take out one of the hoplite variants (there are 3 AFAIK? regular hoplites, rhodian epilektoi and then veteran hoplites). But a nice bit of flavour would be to add Rhodian Marines as a recruitable land unit (i.e. a sword+jav unit to help support the hoplites). Mostly I'd like to see some unique naval units, and unique faction buildings (e.g. colossus as a level 5 temple chain). I also think they could do with some tweaks to their faction traits (maybe swap one of the slinger related buffs to a naval buff).

    I like the idea of playing as Rhodes conceptually - they are mentioned historically in a disproportionate number of battles considering it's a little island off Anatolia without much power projection, and they were certainly wealthy, but the Rome 2 implementation is so... flat? Anyway maybe the DeI team can find a good solution to make them a more tempting choice (also, for me difficulty is key to tempting - they don't need to have a powerhouse roster to be tempting)

  14. #334

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Standard Nerd View Post
    True - this begs an interesting question. How useful is naval power in DeI? Can you realistically repel any invasion of Rhodes with a capable enough fleet. I remember there was one guy on this forum who used to complain extensively about “navy ninjas” spoiling his fun. In the current iteration of DeI, can a bog standard 20 stack fleet of Triremes stop transport stacks from reaching your shores with relative ease?
    Navies are actually really underrated. In my Massalia game I was defeating stacks of 20 Triremes with a stack of 10 mixed Biremes and Triremes (don't board, don't bother swapping missiles, just out-manoeuvre and ram). Once I had my own stack of 20 (mostly pentaremes - some artillery and the rest marines) I was easily raiding Carthagianian towns for quick cash, using the artillery ships to flush out the garrison and then the far superior speed and flexibility of the marines to isolate and surround each unit. Even though the balance bar said I should lose almost every one, I'd find I'd successfully raid the town with very few casualties.

  15. #335
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by Epanastatis View Post
    I don't think the land roster needs much changing - maybe take out one of the hoplite variants (there are 3 AFAIK? regular hoplites, rhodian epilektoi and then veteran hoplites). But a nice bit of flavour would be to add Rhodian Marines as a recruitable land unit (i.e. a sword+jav unit to help support the hoplites). Mostly I'd like to see some unique naval units, and unique faction buildings (e.g. colossus as a level 5 temple chain). I also think they could do with some tweaks to their faction traits (maybe swap one of the slinger related buffs to a naval buff).

    I like the idea of playing as Rhodes conceptually - they are mentioned historically in a disproportionate number of battles considering it's a little island off Anatolia without much power projection, and they were certainly wealthy, but the Rome 2 implementation is so... flat? Anyway maybe the DeI team can find a good solution to make them a more tempting choice (also, for me difficulty is key to tempting - they don't need to have a powerhouse roster to be tempting)
    I too would love to see a recruitable land marine unit for Rhodes. It should be a very easy addition just for this faction and can be justified for game play reasons. I also like the idea of a custom level 5 temple based on the colossus giving some more naval boosts for the faction. These two changes could really make this faction a unique naval based boatload of fun

  16. #336

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Tbh Naval still give me a lot headache thou with all the bugs and the A.I just being nuisance with it hoarding lock bug

  17. #337
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    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    Quote Originally Posted by quachandy99 View Post
    Tbh Naval still give me a lot headache thou with all the bugs and the A.I just being nuisance with it hoarding lock bug
    Even with the bugs, I still find naval combat fun. I have always wanted Rhodes and Athens to be more focused on naval combat to make them unique and to cover their historical traditions.

  18. #338

    Default Re: [Preview] Hellenic Overhaul - Infantry of Macedon & Epirus

    I find naval battles in Rome 2 to be a mix of exciting and infuriating. Kind of like Empire and Napoleon Total War, Naval battles in Rome 2 are one of the only situations in which the AI might be able to defeat the average player in a completely even engagement, which gives them an excitement and tension not as easy to come by for land battles.

    On the other hand, the reason that the AI can challenge the player is that some of the Naval Battle mechanics are hard to deal with in the extremely fast paced arena of naval warfare. Ships can be sunk far more quickly in this game than any of the previous Total War titles. For example, all ram orders need to be given and repeated by the player. Once a ship rams another, but doesn’t sink it, the ship won’t attempt to ram the ship again unless you are paying attention and order it to. Furthermore, once you do sink a ship, trying to untangle yourself from the sinking vessel can get glitchy and weird.

    Far more glitchy and weird than ramming though is trying to maneuver your ship into a position in which the game will actually let your troops attempt to board another vessel. Once you do manage that, you are essentially entangled with that vessel for the rest of the battle, as melee’s take a long time like most 1v1 melees in DeI. This means that your ship is stuck for the rest of the battle, and unlike in DeI, even if you massively outnumber their marines, you’ll still take massive casualties, only less than 50% if you’re lucky. Also god forbid that the ship you are boarding gets sunk while your marines are fighting - you won’t be able to give orders to that ship for the rest of the battle.

    Because boarding is so dangerous and committal, ramming is the better tactic in almost all situations. Obviously this makes barbarian fleets vastly inferior to the fleets of other factions, because their vessels cannot ram. That’s definitely not a bad thing from a historical perspective, because I can’t think of any barbarian fleets that won naval victories of note during the period covered by the game. The only barbarian naval power I can think of during the era is the Veneti tribe in modern day Brittany, France (as opposed to the Veneti faction playable in Rise of the Republic), and I can’t think of any notable victories they had. The downside to barbarian fleets being so inferior is that it makes investing in shipmaking buildings that enable recruitment of higher tier vessels to be a waste. You’re far better building fishing ports for the food in almost all situations in my opinion.

    I’m intentionally overlooking the Ardieai who were a successful naval power for a while, because they are the only playable barbarian faction that can actually recruit ramming ships, albeit only small ones. The viability of actually trying employ piracy while playing the Ardieai could have a whole thread dedicated to it.

    I apologize for getting so off topic with this post. I guess what I’m trying to say is that naval battles actually can be really fun, but if you’re using a barbarian fleet against a Roman/Punic/Greek fleet you’d better have many more ships, and at that point you will suffer less casualties if you autoresolve because barbarian ships are far weaker against ramming ships than auto-resolve gives them credit for.

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