Holland refuses turkish FM to enter country, Erdogan retaliates calling dutch ministers nazis

[AnthoniusII]

Ridiculous. If he keeps this up EU should consider an embargo against Turkey.

That would make actions on behalf of Turkey faster.
Remember that in WW 2 Japan attacked USA when US goverment made an oil embargo against Japan.
An embargo -like the one that today Germany makes (military technology)- would force Turkey to export violence while its military power is still intact.
Remember that Iraq was the 4th stronger military power but after few years of embargo that force was 0!
Erdogan knows that very well. An embargo would accelerate Turkish people in west europe revolts. Those EU countries would force to exile-sent back to Turkey- those people.
Turkey would have 6 million more angree fanatic Erdogan suporters that would demand "lands" to live. Turkey would listen to that demand and would try to expand to Greece and Bulgaria ussing Albanian extremist and Muslim Bosnians as "the 5th phalanx" making Balkans a chaotic battlefield. Hungary hates Serbia and Greece, Romania hates Bulgaria and Austria is too far away and too weak and hates all balkans. So no help will come to Balkans against Turkey.
Erdogan knows all these possibilities and plays the card of blackmail very well.

[Kyriakos]

^Yes, Erdo is a real genius. (sarcasm).

Given the state of Turkey, it is no threat to anyone and has far more ethnic minorities in it than any country it could aspire to harm using ethnic minorities.

[Gallus]

That would make actions on behalf of Turkey faster.
Remember that in WW 2 Japan attacked USA when US goverment made an oil embargo against Japan.
An embargo -like the one that today Germany makes (military technology)- would force Turkey to export violence while its military power is still intact.
Remember that Iraq was the 4th stronger military power but after few years of embargo that force was 0!
Erdogan knows that very well. An embargo would accelerate Turkish people in west europe revolts. Those EU countries would force to exile-sent back to Turkey- those people.
Turkey would have 6 million more angree fanatic Erdogan suporters that would demand "lands" to live. Turkey would listen to that demand and would try to expand to Greece and Bulgaria ussing Albanian extremist and Muslim Bosnians as "the 5th phalanx" making Balkans a chaotic battlefield. Hungary hates Serbia and Greece, Romania hates Bulgaria and Austria is too far away and too weak and hates all balkans. So no help will come to Balkans against Turkey.
Erdogan knows all these possibilities and plays the card of blackmail very well.

Does he really? He's saying to see how far he can go. I think it's time to call his bluff. He would come begging on his knees in no time, like he did when Russia embargoed Turkey after the plane incident.

[Inhuman One]

Greece would have the support of other EU countries though if Erdogan is stupid enough to try and invade Greece. Russia would likely distance themselves from Turkey at that point anyways since there's no benefit in it for them, and with Turkey clearly being the agressor it would be highly unpopular for Putin to support that since few russians would agree with that course of action.

An assault on Greece would be the end of Turkey. A likely result might be that Trump would want to swoop in, depose of Erdogan and install a puppet ruler that benefits him. He wants America to win wars after all. He'd ruin Turkey like America has ruined many other middle eastern countries though and it would just create more terrorism in the long run.

[Diocle]

Erdogan is just a very poor poker player and a common gangster, I wouldn't expect any seriuos political action by him, he's there just to harm his own country.

[Tureuki]

All those shiny tinfoil hats in this thread...

[AnthoniusII]

^Yes, Erdo is a real genius. (sarcasm).

Given the state of Turkey, it is no threat to anyone and has far more ethnic minorities in it than any country it could aspire to harm using ethnic minorities.

Its very dangerus to underestimate other people lever of cleverness.
Infact Erdogan has proven multiple times that knows how to manipultate public opinion and create solid foreign policy. He knows even how to change sides (recentry with Putin's Russia) succesfully.
That makes him MORE dangerus. Turkey has a "market" of 78 million people and all europeans will kneel before the "Sultan" to get some more money. Also he managed to convince Albania that the HUGE Turkey will suport Albanian;s dream of Great Albania!

Does he really? He's saying to see how far he can go. I think it's time to call his bluff. He would come begging on his knees in no time, like he did when Russia embargoed Turkey after the plane incident.

Greece would have the support of other EU countries though if Erdogan is stupid enough to try and invade Greece. Russia would likely distance themselves from Turkey at that point anyways since there's no benefit in it for them, and with Turkey clearly being the agressor it would be highly unpopular for Putin to support that since few russians would agree with that course of action.

An assault on Greece would be the end of Turkey. A likely result might be that Trump would want to swoop in, depose of Erdogan and install a puppet ruler that benefits him. He wants America to win wars after all. He'd ruin Turkey like America has ruined many other middle eastern countries though and it would just create more terrorism in the long run.

Bluff? Did Hitler finally bluff? And which EU countries will run to help Greece or Bulgaria? Those that in 1987 SUPORTED Turkey to invade Greece (Holland,France,Germany,UK,Belgium,Portugal,Spain etc)?
Those EU countries that WISH Greece would be out of EU?
But even if all EU countries would try to help , with WHAT ARMY would do so?
Do you know that Greece alone has more tanks and more fighter planes from all EU states excuding France and Italy? Why ? Because countries like Holland and Germany felt secure enough to disband their armies. And you know what? Turkey will start a war with Holland,German and Austrian weapons and military technology!!!!! Your countries actually ARMED Erdohan's hands to start what ever "holly war" he dreams in europe today. Your countries gave Erdogan the knives that terrorists today use against you all!Remember that by Erdogan and USA's request your countries supplied AT missiles, guns, AA missiles etc to Syrian Rebel forces that later joined ISIL. Your weapons kill your people TODAY!
Next time western Europeans will vote for a goverment like recently in Holland be sure that this goverment wont focus on military industries wealth but in your safety and the safety of your beloved people!
Do you want me to remind you that a month before recent Erdogan;s threats about holly wars and how europeans will afraid to walk on streets UK PM made a deal with Erdogan to build a 5th generation fighter plane for Turkey.
Did that UK PM care about the pain of its subjects like those they felt in the recent events?
Today populism in western europe cries to get Greece out of EU. Forgeting that Greece bought half of their military production raising its depts because of the Turkish danger! It reminds me that how west europeans left the Roman Empire to fall in Ottomans after they sucked it 2 centuries earlier! But when that barrier felt then terror came to europe! I guess that western europeans NEVER LEARN!

Erdogan is just a very poor poker player and a common gangster, I wouldn't expect any seriuos political action by him, he's there just to harm his own country.

That could be a dangers illusion. Like those people had in 1938!
Just to remind you the recent Bosnian inner conflicts last months that require intipendent Muslim state. Just to remind you the Albanian revolt in FYROM and the most recently threats to Bulgaria ussing th eone million Muslims of south Bulgaria as tool of interfearence! More just to remind you the recent Albanian dreams of Great Albania that include parts of Greece,FYROM ,Montenegro and Serbia! All by the active suport of Turkey that invested in air and naval bases in Albania!Even Croatia will be threatened in Adriatic sea if it wont agree with Turkey's and Bosnians request of a solid Muslim state in the hard of the Former Yugoslavia. Does this look as game to you? Forgeting how Balkan wars and WW 1 broke up in our regions?

[Condottiere 40K]

There's more to success in warfare than the total number of combat vehicles, which Turks seem to be incompetent at armoured warfare.

If they're not busy, just recruit a couple of regiments of Kurds, properly equip them, and let them lose, either defending Greece, infiltrating Ankara, or setting off a general insurrection in Turkey.

[Kyriakos]

^Anthonius, it isn't just what starting army one has, but if they can replenish their supplies and create new fighters/tanks etc to replace lost ones. (which is also why Greece wouldn't play much of a role in a world war either past any first stage where current standing army matters, cause countries that now don't have much of a military but have capacity to make one would soon have a larger army than us, eg Germany).
And Turkey obviously doesn't create F-16s, nor any other serious/heavy weapon. This means it is ridiculous to claim they can fight for long in an actual war.
Furthermore, actually serious sides have nukes, and a huge number of them too. A serious war, where Turkey is on the hostile side of actually major powers, will only lead to partition of Turkey.

[KEA]

^Anthonius, it isn't just what starting army one has, but if they can replenish their supplies and create new fighters/tanks etc to replace lost ones.

The Turkish army basically is a wild mixture of German and US equipment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...sh_Land_Forces
Means, beyond bombing Kurdish shepherds into submission, it goes absolutely nowhere without the consent of Germany and the US.

[Gallus]

Turkey doesn't have it's own military industry, and they are surrounded by enemies. They can't start a war with Europe with the trouble the Kurds are giving them. Erdogan thinks he can bully Europe, just like thought he can bully Russia. But the truth is that Turkey is no position to bully anyone, and he needs to realize that before he does something that will seriously harm his country.

[Gäiten]

People as Erdogan do not bother if their country will get seriously harmed. Only the other are responsible for any bad happen to them.

Lived blame culture at its best.

[Alastor]

The Turkish army basically is a wild mixture of German and US equipment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern...sh_Land_Forces
Means, beyond bombing Kurdish shepherds into submission, it goes absolutely nowhere without the consent of Germany and the US.

Checking that page, other than the huge amount of armament Turkey has, what really struck me was the great number of the equipment listed as being produced or co-produced by Turkey. That means that if they don't already have the knowhow to develop them themselves, they are not too far. So I wouldn't be so quick to state that without a US/German approval the Turkish military is toothless.

[KEA]

Checking that page, other than the huge amount of armament Turkey has, what really struck me was the great number of the equipment listed as being produced or co-produced by Turkey.

As far as I see it, the only thing that is produced in Turkey under license are small arms and light vehicles. Anything bigger is produced aboard and at best "modernized" in Turkey. Modern military equipment needs a constant supply of 100% fitting replacement parts. I don't think that anyone in Turkey is capable of crafting the electronics of a Leopard II, for example.

[Kyriakos]

As far as I see it, the only thing that is produced in Turkey under license are small arms and light vehicles. Anything bigger is produced aboard and at best "modernized" in Turkey. Modern military equipment needs a constant supply of 100% fitting replacement parts. I don't think that anyone in Turkey is capable of crafting the electronics of a Leopard II, for example.

Or of planes, missiles, ships etc.

But hey, Turkey can build some jeep, so it will be formidable

[Hmmm]

^Anthonius, it isn't just what starting army one has, but if they can replenish their supplies and create new fighters/tanks etc to replace lost ones. (which is also why Greece wouldn't play much of a role in a world war either past any first stage where current standing army matters, cause countries that now don't have much of a military but have capacity to make one would soon have a larger army than us, eg Germany).
And Turkey obviously doesn't create F-16s, nor any other serious/heavy weapon. This means it is ridiculous to claim they can fight for long in an actual war.
Furthermore, actually serious sides have nukes, and a huge number of them too. A serious war, where Turkey is on the hostile side of actually major powers, will only lead to partition of Turkey.

Turkey has a pretty large domestic military industry, actually, and it's getting bigger. While they still rely on a lot of foreign technical assistance, they've come quite far in developing more self-sufficient and independent research and production capability. This includes domestic and modern tanks, corvettes, frigates, and apparently their own fighter programme (TAI TFX). Additionally Turkey has been producing F-16s locally (under licence) for decades now. Given the continuing economic woes of your country, and thus the low likelihood of major military procurement any time soon, coupled with the pretty damn massive military procurement programmes of Turkey in the near future, I'm not sure if one could really rest easy particularly with Erdogan at the helm.

While the debacle at Al-Bab, which exposed the considerable lack of training and leadership (which may be a symptom of Erdogans officer purge) in the Turkish ranks, may ease the pressure on Greece for now, the fact is your country is in for some rough times with such an unstable (and militarily powerful) neighbour. I'm not saying Turkey will be looking for a war, but expect to be bullied even worse now than before.

Honestly this whole development with Germany and the NL (in particular the fact that it continues) should be reason enough for the rest of us in the EU to wake up and start giving some actual support to Greece, but I dont expect that to happen. No, instead of focusing on helping a badly exposed EU member who happens to be neighbours with this soon-to-be dictator, we'll worry about the Netherlands having their feelings hurt by being called fascist by Erdogan.

[AnthoniusII]

Turkey's arms products ussing Holland's , Germany's , Korean , Italian and Austrian technology and knowhow:
T129 based on Italian design and its missiles are based on Germanic and Israely technology. UMTAS .
khan Balistic missile based on Pakistani and Chinese technology.
ALTAY tank based on Germanic,Korean and Austrian technology.
Firtina atrilery based on Korean (actually Germanic ) technology.
T122 based on Germanic and Russian and Chinese technology.
Cirit based on Germanic and US technology.
Korkut based on Germanic and Suiss technology.
Samur attack bridge based on Austrian technology.
TGC Anatolu aircraft carrier based on Hispanic technology.
MILGEM Corvetes based on Germanic technology.
SOM cruise missile based on the Germanic KEPD.
Corral ESMM/ESM/ECCM system based on Holland's and Germanic technology but in this case we must admit the Turkish sientists got the system much further.
ASELPOD targeting system. Based on French and Israely technology.
These are only few products that make Turkey to feel confident to start a war. Also now Turkey does not need European nations help like Holland or Germany because he got what he needed from them and now feels free to make threats!
Instead ALL EU nations sold their products in Greece in 200% bigger prices than the rest of their customers (example: NH-90 hellicopters that costed 280% more than the Finish ones that had more equipment on them).
Now...please count how many EU countries actually gave Erdogan the tools to behave like a Sultan! Do you still believe that they will dare to lose his money or influence in the muslim population in entire EU to cut diplomatic relations with him? Even Turks that still hope that EU could press Erdogan to return into a more European kind of state live in illusions. EU countries are governed by the factory owners and not by their goverments. Factory owners do not care if a terrorist will kill you or someone else in your countries. They care for profit alone! A Sultan Erdogan fits their ambitions because they hope to a new race of armaments. But i fear its too late!

[Exarch]

erdogan needs to be disciplined, in fact, the Turks have to be taught a lesson they'll remember. Perhaps kurdestan should be allowed to form on trkey's border and constantinople should be returned to true european sons like the Greeks.

Even to this day, the Turks live on stolen land-Anatolia- much like they're trying to steal german land from the germans.

[AnthoniusII]

erdogan needs to be disciplined, in fact, the Turks have to be taught a lesson they'll remember. Perhaps kurdestan should be allowed to form on trkey's border and constantinople should be returned to true european sons like the Greeks.

Even to this day, the Turks live on stolen land-Anatolia- much like they're trying to steal german land from the germans.

Hard words...Common people through out the world live similar lives and have similar consirns. What humanity needs today is not allow leaders that suffer from megalomania to control their lives.
As a Greek I have nothing to separate with a Turk. Actually in ordinary lives in both coasts of the Aegean common Turks and common Greeks are friends. What will destroy that is "crowd manipulation". An individual thinks but a member of a mob does not!

[Gäiten]

Nevertheless, if they cut their ties to the West, they would have serious problems to run their military effectively for longer periods.

And if the West might support the Kurds effectively, they would be in very serious trouble.