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Thread: Eurocrisis in South European angle

  1. #81

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Well, Schaeuble, Merkel, Juncker and co. have all openly expressed their preferences, it's not like if Trump does it, then he's bad. Plus he didn't even specify what he meant.

    As for Melenchon, he's 100% spot on about the necessity of renegotiating treaties. This is the only way a reform can have any effect and it'd start with free movement of capital and the treaty of Maastricht. You want to end the ''neoliberal order''? That goes through reducing the influence and power of their core international organizations, the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO. Under that point of view, he's no moron.

    On the other side, when it comes to economic policies, he's shooting way too big than he could ever hope to deliver and if he doesn't leave the Euro, he certainly won't be able to do any of it anyway.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Honestly, 99% of the EU's problems would be solved if it ditched the euro or regressed it to the status of a virtual currency.
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  3. #83

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Not 99%, but it'd be a start. The thing is, most people do not realize how ed up the monetary system is these days. It's not just that money creation is in the hands of commercial banks via the central bank, which is questionable in terms of democracy, but you know, invisible hand of the free market, let the market create the money... I can go with it. The problem is, and this is much worse in Europe than it is in the US, when money is created, it doesn't go almost at all in the real economy. 1 Euro every 18 of quantitative easing caused real growth, the rest goes in inflating stocks. Of course then you have situations like France were business have been borrowing like crazy, there's no growth, unemployment doesn't move, so what's up?

    There's also the problem of Basel II legislation which essentially makes it impossible for small and medium enterprises to borrow, because it requires higher liquidity requirements for banks and an interest rate. So all you have is the ECB pumping liquidity into investment banks that land to multinationals to buy back their shares. That's it. That's the majestic euro-system today.

    Not to mention how all of this is phony liquidity is going through the German banks, because those are the ones trusted by markets. The Eurozone today serves to boost the German export, buyback shares by multinationals and leverage the German banks. There's zero reason to keep going like this.

    The start is terminating the Euro, but the second problem is that the banking sector is utterly worthless. It's supposed to provide resources for growth and it's not doing it. Then it must be rebuit from scratch. The obvious beginning is taking back control of monetary creation. Second, organize the new currency in a way that business can receive access to it without going through banks. Third and final, let the banks fail. This is one of those times where the market will do the job and it'll be getting rid of inefficiencies, which is the entire banking sector.

    The second major advantage of all of this, it'd remove an instrument of power from the financial aristocracy.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; April 21, 2017 at 01:04 PM.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Leaving the euro now as it is, would do more harm then good, specialy for the smaller countries like Portugal and such. The ideal situation would be never to join in the first place.
    But now???!! that we are in.... A two speed currency and EU, seems the most sensible thing to do.

    That said, we dont know what is certain this days, just because there is a sensible option, doesnt mean it is the most plausible one to happen.

    French ellections and later on the Italian ones, are going to be key for the future of EU, for the time being imo.

    And it is a shame very few people are debating plans on what to do, if EU does crumble, or if in our case (portugal) we are actualy forced to leave the euro, or if EU does end.
    There should be plans, for this kind of things.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; April 21, 2017 at 04:15 PM.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    In Italy some people are coming up with the idea of introducing a parallel currency and it's gaining popularity. I think it could work to avoid an economic paralysis, though within a couple of years the Euro should be withdrawn.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    And it is a shame very few people are debating plans on what to do, if EU does crumble, or if in our case (portugal) we are actualy forced to leave the euro, or if EU does end.
    There should be plans, for this kind of things.
    Ferreira do Amaral and Louçã wrote book Novo Escudo (New Escudo) where they discuss 3 different scenarios of leaving Euro, one of them as a sudden meltdown of the system without our choice or will.

    Asides that it uses and (ocasionally) requires some techincal language, there is no "political" or "emotional" reason to not read it, given one of the authors is from the far left, and the other is openly a nationalist, so there's from all flavours in political spectrum included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Our cuck government presented the blueprint for this year's budget:
    -higher VAT
    -primary surplus
    -no economic growth (meaning the primary surplus won't even be enough to prevent debt from growing, thus it's utterly pointless)
    -generic whining about the ''rigidities that prevent Italy from growing''

    [...]but if it can't' be reformed then it'll crash and burn.
    They are basically buying more time. Not just in Italy, Europewide too. Meanwhile bombs go off, and economic depression continues. The "cucks" strategy seems to basically keep buying more time until some saving idea appears on their minds, but they've been doing this since 2009. 8 years later and things are how they are.
    I agree, this is a long case of denial at the expense of many. The international ruling elite are trembling their own throne, and one doesn't even have to act to see its foundations weakining cumulatively.

    Asides from that, at least I need to give some respect to Draghi for trying to do something different, His idea back then was seen as too risky for German standards, now seems it wasn't innovative/crazy enough, but at least he and his team tried something.

    Asides from this, who else in the Elite took the problem seriously or at least tried something other than perpetualize depression as the new normal?
    Last edited by fkizz; April 21, 2017 at 07:48 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  7. #87

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Honestly, 99% of the EU's problems would be solved if it ditched the euro or regressed it to the status of a virtual currency.
    What do you mean?

  8. #88

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post

    They are basically buying more time. Not just in Italy, Europewide too. Meanwhile bombs go off, and economic depression continues. The "cucks" strategy seems to basically keep buying more time until some saving idea appears on their minds, but they've been doing this since 2009. 8 years later and things are how they are.
    I agree, this is a long case of denial at the expense of many. The international ruling elite are trembling their own throne, and one doesn't even have to act to see its foundations weakining cumulatively.

    Asides from that, at least I need to give some respect to Draghi for trying to do something different, His idea back then was seen as too risky for German standards, now seems it wasn't innovative/crazy enough, but at least he and his team tried something.

    Asides from this, who else in the Elite took the problem seriously or at least tried something other than perpetualize depression as the new normal?
    I've been saying that for years. They are buying time hoping that growth will magically reappear or people give up and accept that their country will be .

    There have been some guys copy pastying arguments here saying tiny growth is the new normal.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    I've been saying that for years. They are buying time hoping that growth will magically reappear or people give up and accept that their country will be .

    There have been some guys copy pastying arguments here saying tiny growth is the new normal.
    Slow growth is not depression.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Slow growth is not depression.
    It's stagnation.

    Also it goes within the standard deviation error so it might as well be 0 or negative. The fact that they also recently changed recently how the GDP is counted, including prostitution, drug traffic and illegal activities in general, out of estimates, makes the variable even less accurate.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Slow growth is not depression.
    Stagnation, with a sword of damocles above you with possibility of system meltdown from either monetary or political reasons, has all the ingredients to become a breeding ground of something very negative.

    People at the end of the day aren't just numbers. And Europe does have, even if it doesn't admit, a level of cultural/civilizational pride and history of military prowess that is yet another small (human) ingredient in the pro-implosion force.
    Last edited by fkizz; April 22, 2017 at 04:53 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  12. #92

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Ferreira do Amaral and Louçã wrote book Novo Escudo (New Escudo) where they discuss 3 different scenarios of leaving Euro, one of them as a sudden meltdown of the system without our choice or will.

    Asides that it uses and (ocasionally) requires some techincal language, there is no "political" or "emotional" reason to not read it, given one of the authors is from the far left, and the other is openly a nationalist, so there's from all flavours in political spectrum included.
    Im aware of their books.
    Im not talking about Academia.... im talking about a political discussion, and plans, and all that it entails.


    Slow growth is not depression.
    On its own?! maybe not, but when you look at the "Panorama" ( with a birds eye view sort of speak) at all economic elements, macro, and micro, it is very clear it is a very depressive economy.
    Specialy when There is still very high unemployment rates, and now even in France ( wich is higher then the Portuguese at the moment) Acording to EU, Not even counting the Youth unemployment... wich is abysmal, across the board.

    Maybe in the portuguese case right now, economy is not as depressive, as in the troika years, but regardless its fragile as glass.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; April 23, 2017 at 01:53 PM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Unemployment in France is higher than the official rate. They have the infamous ''giving up on the job market'' as well. Hence Melenchon's booming popularity.

  14. #94

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Trump ...he didn't even specify what he meant
    Donald Trump: Marine Le Pen is 'strongest candidate' in French election

    Donald Trump has offered a tacit endorsement of Marine Le Pen in the French presidential election, describing the far-right leader as the “strongest” candidate in the first-round vote this Sunday.
    It's quite clear...

    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    As for Melenchon, he's 100% spot on about the necessity of renegotiating treaties.
    The biggest problem facing the EU is the German surplus.We have been saying this for a long time.
    --------
    Washington should forge an alliance with Paris to confront Berlin, says Wolfgang in the Financial Times. I tend to agree.
    https://www.ft.com/content/74e46f02-...a-538b4cb30025 (excerpts)

    Within two or three months, President Donald Trump and the new president of France will both be confronted with an important question of economic diplomacy: what to do about the German current account surplus? Last year it reached 8.6 per cent of gross domestic product, an extreme number for the world’s fourth-largest economy
    ...So far, Germany has brushed off all criticism. The European Commission presents reports on macroeconomic imbalances each year. The dustbins of Berlin are filled with them. Successive French presidents chose not to raise the issue either.

    A good starting point would be to exploit the internal contradictions of Germany’s defence of the surpluses. Ahead of last week’s spring meetings of the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank in Washington, the Berlin government produced a paper that made the point that the US should not worry about its bilateral relationship with Germany, but with the eurozone.

    The private paper argued that Germany cannot logically be a currency manipulator as it no longer has its own currency. If the euro is undervalued, it is not Germany’s fault, but a consequence of the European Central Bank’s monetary policies. The message seems to be: don’t call us, call Brussels or Frankfurt.This is an extraordinary defence. If Germany blames the eurozone, then surely the US and the other members of the single currency should insist that the bloc be given the powers to address the problem more effectively.

    ...It means that the eurozone will have to acquire at the very least a joint fiscal capacity and the right to impose policies on member states to influence the relationship between savings and investments.Since the German government rejects those policies, Berlin’s eurozone argument is bogus. The other member states should not allow Germany to point the finger at them because it runs massive imbalances with them as well as the rest of the world.

    What I do know is that the French political class would set itself up for failure if it did not put pressure on Germany to address the issue. If Germany either accepts policies to correct the imbalances, or agrees to reforms of eurozone governance, or ideally both, then the most intelligent French strategy would be to seek a close partnership with Berlin and forge the next stages of European integration. That would be my preferred scenario. The euro’s survival necessitates such a step.

    If Germany continues to refuse to address the issue, it would be the job of the next French president to convey to Angela Merkel or her successor as German chancellor that the eurozone is not a tenable construction, and that the euro will over time lose the support of the public, in France in particular.There is no guarantee that Germany would be impressed by such a threat. But a eurozone break-up would constitute such an economic disaster for Germany that it would be in the country’s interest to tweak policy, rather than risk another crisis with potentially disastrous consequences.

    Only France is in a position to force the issue because it holds the key to the future of the euro. Thus the smartest strategy for the US should be to forge a strategic alliance with France to confront Germany, rather than opt for unilateral trade sanctions, which are, at best, a diversion.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 24, 2017 at 12:42 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  15. #95

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Reince Preibus says he didn't.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-le-pen-237493


    Then again, I don't care. Everyone openly expressed their preference, Trump should be free to do the same.

    The biggest problem facing the EU is the German surplus.We have been saying this for a long time.
    --------
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Washington should forge an alliance with Paris to confront Berlin, says Wolfgang in the Financial Times. I tend to agree.
    https://www.ft.com/content/74e46f02-...a-538b4cb30025 (excerpts)
    He's spot on and he often is. Rare for an establishment guy.

    Though notice that Germany isn't trying to deny anymore that their export is due to the Euro being undervalued, even more so because it's dragged down by the weakness of the South.
    They are just shifting the blame but the core argument is the same, the Euro is creating a massive trade distortion and self fulfilling cycle: Germany trade gets stronger at the expense of the South ----> the South gets weaker and fails to recover ----> the Euro is dragged down further ---> German trade positiong gets even stronger.

    It's stupid.

    Also:
    Austerity in the aftermath of the Great Recession

    http://voxeu.org/article/austerity-a...reat-recession

    Austerity policies implemented during the Great Recession have been blamed for the slow recovery in several European countries. Using data from 29 advanced economies, this column shows that austerity policies negatively affect economic performance by reducing GDP, inflation, consumption, and investment. It also warns that efforts to reduce debt through austerity in the depths of the economic recession were counterproductive.
    Do you remember when they told us: let the technocrats do their job, they are not political, they follow science, scientifical approach can't be wrong. It turns out technocrats are ignoring the evidence from their own science. Then how exactly are they better than the dumbest politician out there?

    Mindboggling.

    Edit: epic fail part 3:

    http://www.dn.pt/portugal/interior/e...l-6239385.html

    Half of the refugees assigned to Portugal are leaving for Germany or Northern Europe in general. I told you it wasn't going to work. Stupid relocation plan of Soros.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; April 24, 2017 at 05:27 PM.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Reince Preibus says he didn't.

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...-le-pen-237493

    Priebus is confused...
    Quoting
    But he certainly doesn't have a preference, other than a right-of-center person who believes in the free market.[/QUOTE]
    Free market? Trump says the free market is 'dumb' - Business Insider

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Then again, I don't care. Everyone openly expressed their preference
    Right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Half of the refugees assigned to Portugal are leaving for Germany or Northern Europe in general.
    Indeed, almost half, 474.

    I told you it wasn't going to work
    Well, it still works. On a side note, "work" isn't the right word...we are offering welcome to +-10,000. Why? we are against an Europe that closes his borders to refugees, and we need them.
    Our patriotism is strong,and yet open and universal.There is no contradiction here. This year my country completes 873 years as a sovereign state, and that it is one of the oldest nations in the world.We are not obsessed with a fear of any kind of "cultural contamination".
    You see, our country is one country with one nation, sharing a common culture, it's own language, attached to a very clearly demarcated territory, and with a common past.
    And yet, our cultural homogeneity is a product of cultural miscegenation (Greeks, Romans, Germans, Africans, Arabs and Jews). A few months ago, our right wing President wrote, in a welcome to the Arab Ambassadors accredited in Portugal,
    But this first meeting will also, in some way, be a tribute to the historical, genetic, cultural and scientific legacy of the Arab peoples who have passed through this land. We are heirs of the first Arab astrolabes, which contributed so much to the progress of the Discoveries.
    We are the heirs of açorda, saffron, the alfândega customs house, the alfarrabista bookshop, just a few of the words that have enriched our lexicon.
    And we have a very rich and diverse genetic heritage, which also comprises a legacy from these peoples.
    If today we are what we are, and if today we believe that we have a strong penchant for building bridges and for the dialogue between peoples, it is also due in part to this Arab heritage, to which I here pay homage.
    Bridges and dialogue. That's what we advocate.Not a division between us and the others.
    As you see, we won't refuse refugees...or oblige them to stay here.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 25, 2017 at 09:35 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

  17. #97

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    But he certainly doesn't have a preference, other than a right-of-center person who believes in the free market.
    Free market? Trump says the free market is 'dumb' - Business Insider
    Right...
    Again the only thing Marine Le Pen would nationalize is the central bank.
    Money creation is a key strategic economic element and recent evidence abudantly shows that leaving it to a banking sector that is unable to promote real growth is a dumb strategy. I posted this earlier, 1 out of 18 quantitative easing euros from the ECB goes into the real economy. That's abysimal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Indeed, almost half, 474.


    Well, it still works. On a side note, "work" isn't the right word...we are offering welcome to +-10,000. Why? we are against an Europe that closes his borders to refugees, and we need them.
    Our patriotism is strong,and yet open and universal.There is no contradiction here. This year my country completes 873 years as a sovereign state, and that it is one of the oldest nations in the world.We are not obsessed with a fear of any kind of "cultural contamination".
    You see, our country is one country with one nation, sharing a common culture, it's own language, attached to a very clearly demarcated territory, and with a common past.
    And yet, our cultural homogeneity is a product of cultural miscegenation (Greeks, Romans, Germans, Africans, Arabs and Jews). A few months ago, our right wing President wrote, in a welcome to the Arab Ambassadors accredited in Portugal,

    As you see, we won't refuse refugees...or oblige them to stay here.
    The thing is, Portugal just like the rest of the Mediterranean bloc but also Eastern Europe offer very poor prospects to everyone, citizens, refugees etc. And if half of your 1000 refugees leave, then it's pretty clear that the refugee quota scheme of the EU isn't going to work.

    Because otherwise these people take money from the Portuguese state and go live and spend it in Germany, that's insulting and an economic nonsense at the same time. This doesn't mean ''let's close doors to refugees'', it just means that other solutions must be sought. Overburdening already overburdened countries where refugees won't stay is pointless.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Again the only thing Marine Le Pen would nationalize is the central bank.
    That may explain like 90% of the story of why she is so villanized. It's a very old fight. Will she will even be allowed to do that assuming she wins?
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  19. #99

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It's stagnation.

    Also it goes within the standard deviation error so it might as well be 0 or negative. The fact that they also recently changed recently how the GDP is counted, including prostitution, drug traffic and illegal activities in general, out of estimates, makes the variable even less accurate.
    That doesn't make it recession. A slow, precarious recovery that threatens to dip into recession at any given fiscal quarter is a worrying thing, but let's not call things what they are not.

    I'm also suspicious of any high growth rates have explanations. I've long suspected China to be a bubble and I still do. A massive bubble like our housing market in 2008? I hope not, and I don't think it is. But I suspect it's overvalued by quite a large amount. Case study, American college tuition costs, which have spiraled out of control.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Stagnation, with a sword of damocles above you with possibility of system meltdown from either monetary or political reasons, has all the ingredients to become a breeding ground of something very negative.

    People at the end of the day aren't just numbers. And Europe does have, even if it doesn't admit, a level of cultural/civilizational pride and history of military prowess that is yet another small (human) ingredient in the pro-implosion force.
    Look, if we don't care about numbers, then why are we even quoting them? I'm not saying that Europe doesn't have issues but all economies have issues. If the economy is growing at 1-1.5% and the poor are not seeing it, then it's obvious that the majority of that growth is concentrated at the top. But a lot of economic growth isn't even directly visible to the consumer sometimes. If the price of some common commodities falls and people's living income requirements are lowered, are the poor going to notice that? Of course not.

    Good economic structures generate growth for the top 1%, but in perfect markets various factors (such as dis-economies of scale, high marginal tax regimes, etc) force the wealthy to invest their wealth into more revenue-generating structures. And that's good. That means jobs, that means more tax revenue, that means more market competition. While I complain about uneven economic gains from economic prosperity, the very root of my beef with current economic structures in the West, is that politicians, and not Economists are in charge of crafting economic policy. This has led to consistent structural oversights in various developed economic regimes, and those oversights have added up over the years to produce pretty considerable "leakage" if we look at a national economy as a business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Unemployment in France is higher than the official rate. They have the infamous ''giving up on the job market'' as well. Hence Melenchon's booming popularity.
    I have no idea how French track their unemployment. But I hope you don't buy into the whole "fake unemployment" numbers that the Trump campaign pushed. We have 6 different measures of unemployment that are readily accessible at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The "official" unemployment rate was indeed the one that Obama cited and nobody was "hiding" anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    On its own?! maybe not, but when you look at the "Panorama" ( with a birds eye view sort of speak) at all economic elements, macro, and micro, it is very clear it is a very depressive economy.
    Specialy when There is still very high unemployment rates, and now even in France ( wich is higher then the Portuguese at the moment) Acording to EU, Not even counting the Youth unemployment... wich is abysmal, across the board.

    Maybe in the portuguese case right now, economy is not as depressive, as in the troika years, but regardless its fragile as glass.
    Thing are definitely still , but they are not getting worse. I will take less-than-ideal solutions over any "potential" solutions. There is still some room to experiment with policy in EU and I'm open to playing around with things like interest rates, national fiscal policy, and EU economic regulations, but I will always oppose anything that threatens to be a huge economic disruption. For example? Brexit.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    That doesn't make it recession. A slow, precarious recovery that threatens to dip into recession at any given fiscal quarter is a worrying thing, but let's not call things what they are not.

    I'm also suspicious of any high growth rates have explanations. I've long suspected China to be a bubble and I still do. A massive bubble like our housing market in 2008? I hope not, and I don't think it is. But I suspect it's overvalued by quite a large amount. Case study, American college tuition costs, which have spiraled out of control.
    You can't have a 0.5 growth when unemployment is high. Especially youth unemployment, because this is granted social upheaval until they are in the grave 50-60 years from now.

    Marine Le Pen polls strongly among the youth for that reason.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-pen-president

    I had posted this recently, in Italy the age group 18-35 is giving up on the job market, these people will obviously vote M5S or the most anti-system party out there
    http://www.msn.com/it-it/money/stori...l4Mn?li=AA5a4b

    The same goes with the US. Let's leave out Trump for a moment, the BLS had explained that Obama's ''low unemployment'' was because of either people retiring or giving up on the job market.
    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...ion-rate-drops

    You can't ignore this because those people are pissed off and will vote and they are doing it.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; April 26, 2017 at 05:32 AM.

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