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Thread: Eurocrisis in South European angle

  1. #81

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Well, Schaeuble, Merkel, Juncker and co. have all openly expressed their preferences, it's not like if Trump does it, then he's bad. Plus he didn't even specify what he meant.

    As for Melenchon, he's 100% spot on about the necessity of renegotiating treaties. This is the only way a reform can have any effect and it'd start with free movement of capital and the treaty of Maastricht. You want to end the ''neoliberal order''? That goes through reducing the influence and power of their core international organizations, the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO. Under that point of view, he's no moron.

    On the other side, when it comes to economic policies, he's shooting way too big than he could ever hope to deliver and if he doesn't leave the Euro, he certainly won't be able to do any of it anyway.

  2. #82
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Honestly, 99% of the EU's problems would be solved if it ditched the euro or regressed it to the status of a virtual currency.
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  3. #83

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Not 99%, but it'd be a start. The thing is, most people do not realize how ed up the monetary system is these days. It's not just that money creation is in the hands of commercial banks via the central bank, which is questionable in terms of democracy, but you know, invisible hand of the free market, let the market create the money... I can go with it. The problem is, and this is much worse in Europe than it is in the US, when money is created, it doesn't go almost at all in the real economy. 1 Euro every 18 of quantitative easing caused real growth, the rest goes in inflating stocks. Of course then you have situations like France were business have been borrowing like crazy, there's no growth, unemployment doesn't move, so what's up?

    There's also the problem of Basel II legislation which essentially makes it impossible for small and medium enterprises to borrow, because it requires higher liquidity requirements for banks and an interest rate. So all you have is the ECB pumping liquidity into investment banks that land to multinationals to buy back their shares. That's it. That's the majestic euro-system today.

    Not to mention how all of this is phony liquidity is going through the German banks, because those are the ones trusted by markets. The Eurozone today serves to boost the German export, buyback shares by multinationals and leverage the German banks. There's zero reason to keep going like this.

    The start is terminating the Euro, but the second problem is that the banking sector is utterly worthless. It's supposed to provide resources for growth and it's not doing it. Then it must be rebuit from scratch. The obvious beginning is taking back control of monetary creation. Second, organize the new currency in a way that business can receive access to it without going through banks. Third and final, let the banks fail. This is one of those times where the market will do the job and it'll be getting rid of inefficiencies, which is the entire banking sector.

    The second major advantage of all of this, it'd remove an instrument of power from the financial aristocracy.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; April 21, 2017 at 01:04 PM.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Leaving the euro now as it is, would do more harm then good, specialy for the smaller countries like Portugal and such. The ideal situation would be never to join in the first place.
    But now???!! that we are in.... A two speed currency and EU, seems the most sensible thing to do.

    That said, we dont know what is certain this days, just because there is a sensible option, doesnt mean it is the most plausible one to happen.

    French ellections and later on the Italian ones, are going to be key for the future of EU, for the time being imo.

    And it is a shame very few people are debating plans on what to do, if EU does crumble, or if in our case (portugal) we are actualy forced to leave the euro, or if EU does end.
    There should be plans, for this kind of things.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; April 21, 2017 at 04:15 PM.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    In Italy some people are coming up with the idea of introducing a parallel currency and it's gaining popularity. I think it could work to avoid an economic paralysis, though within a couple of years the Euro should be withdrawn.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    And it is a shame very few people are debating plans on what to do, if EU does crumble, or if in our case (portugal) we are actualy forced to leave the euro, or if EU does end.
    There should be plans, for this kind of things.
    Ferreira do Amaral and Louçã wrote book Novo Escudo (New Escudo) where they discuss 3 different scenarios of leaving Euro, one of them as a sudden meltdown of the system without our choice or will.

    Asides that it uses and (ocasionally) requires some techincal language, there is no "political" or "emotional" reason to not read it, given one of the authors is from the far left, and the other is openly a nationalist, so there's from all flavours in political spectrum included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Our cuck government presented the blueprint for this year's budget:
    -higher VAT
    -primary surplus
    -no economic growth (meaning the primary surplus won't even be enough to prevent debt from growing, thus it's utterly pointless)
    -generic whining about the ''rigidities that prevent Italy from growing''

    [...]but if it can't' be reformed then it'll crash and burn.
    They are basically buying more time. Not just in Italy, Europewide too. Meanwhile bombs go off, and economic depression continues. The "cucks" strategy seems to basically keep buying more time until some saving idea appears on their minds, but they've been doing this since 2009. 8 years later and things are how they are.
    I agree, this is a long case of denial at the expense of many. The international ruling elite are trembling their own throne, and one doesn't even have to act to see its foundations weakining cumulatively.

    Asides from that, at least I need to give some respect to Draghi for trying to do something different, His idea back then was seen as too risky for German standards, now seems it wasn't innovative/crazy enough, but at least he and his team tried something.

    Asides from this, who else in the Elite took the problem seriously or at least tried something other than perpetualize depression as the new normal?
    Last edited by fkizz; April 21, 2017 at 07:48 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  7. #87

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Honestly, 99% of the EU's problems would be solved if it ditched the euro or regressed it to the status of a virtual currency.
    What do you mean?

  8. #88

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post

    They are basically buying more time. Not just in Italy, Europewide too. Meanwhile bombs go off, and economic depression continues. The "cucks" strategy seems to basically keep buying more time until some saving idea appears on their minds, but they've been doing this since 2009. 8 years later and things are how they are.
    I agree, this is a long case of denial at the expense of many. The international ruling elite are trembling their own throne, and one doesn't even have to act to see its foundations weakining cumulatively.

    Asides from that, at least I need to give some respect to Draghi for trying to do something different, His idea back then was seen as too risky for German standards, now seems it wasn't innovative/crazy enough, but at least he and his team tried something.

    Asides from this, who else in the Elite took the problem seriously or at least tried something other than perpetualize depression as the new normal?
    I've been saying that for years. They are buying time hoping that growth will magically reappear or people give up and accept that their country will be .

    There have been some guys copy pastying arguments here saying tiny growth is the new normal.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    I've been saying that for years. They are buying time hoping that growth will magically reappear or people give up and accept that their country will be .

    There have been some guys copy pastying arguments here saying tiny growth is the new normal.
    Slow growth is not depression.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Slow growth is not depression.
    It's stagnation.

    Also it goes within the standard deviation error so it might as well be 0 or negative. The fact that they also recently changed recently how the GDP is counted, including prostitution, drug traffic and illegal activities in general, out of estimates, makes the variable even less accurate.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Slow growth is not depression.
    Stagnation, with a sword of damocles above you with possibility of system meltdown from either monetary or political reasons, has all the ingredients to become a breeding ground of something very negative.

    People at the end of the day aren't just numbers. And Europe does have, even if it doesn't admit, a level of cultural/civilizational pride and history of military prowess that is yet another small (human) ingredient in the pro-implosion force.
    Last edited by fkizz; Yesterday at 04:53 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  12. #92

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Ferreira do Amaral and Louçã wrote book Novo Escudo (New Escudo) where they discuss 3 different scenarios of leaving Euro, one of them as a sudden meltdown of the system without our choice or will.

    Asides that it uses and (ocasionally) requires some techincal language, there is no "political" or "emotional" reason to not read it, given one of the authors is from the far left, and the other is openly a nationalist, so there's from all flavours in political spectrum included.
    Im aware of their books.
    Im not talking about Academia.... im talking about a political discussion, and plans, and all that it entails.


    Slow growth is not depression.
    On its own?! maybe not, but when you look at the "Panorama" ( with a birds eye view sort of speak) at all economic elements, macro, and micro, it is very clear it is a very depressive economy.
    Specialy when There is still very high unemployment rates, and now even in France ( wich is higher then the Portuguese at the moment) Acording to EU, Not even counting the Youth unemployment... wich is abysmal, across the board.

    Maybe in the portuguese case right now, economy is not as depressive, as in the troika years, but regardless its fragile as glass.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; Today at 01:53 PM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Eurocrisis in South European angle

    Unemployment in France is higher than the official rate. They have the infamous ''giving up on the job market'' as well. Hence Melenchon's booming popularity.

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