The future of the Symposium, continued

[Iskar]

I think I touched this (tangentially) earlier, but in somewhat greater detail:

If I want to debate I go the D&D. Yes, it is sometimes shouty and lacking in intellectual honesty, but I have found that if you stick to being honest and calm in your arguments that basically takes the wind out of the sails of the shouters - after all it takes two to tango and if one if them is waltzing with determination the other one either adapts or drops out. Luckily enough there is a considerable number of people in the D&D that are well able and willing to waltz rather than tango - they are just not as loud as the shouters and thus more easily overlooked on a casual glance.

If I want to talk about non-debate stuff in a casual manner, make silly comments or whatnot, I go to the TD with its core of rather likable regulars that seem to have learned to refer to each other on a friendly personal level without comitting "personal references" by the ToS. It is a brilliant place for casual talk, just getting a spontaneous thought off your head and see it spin in circles of association, jokes, pop-culture references and fragments of factual arguments into something completely different - in short, entertainment.

The Symposium would, at least for me, unite the disadvantages of both. Not as light-hearted and friendly as the TD, not as intellectually challenging as engaging in debate with sharp arguments in the D&D. Not as strictly moderated to keep (heated) arguments and people separate as the D&D, not as casual in scope as the TD not to feel subconsciously compelled to post something "worthy" rather than a silly cheerful one-liner.

[Veteraan]

Very fair points, Iskar.

I agree.

Can you comment further as to specifically why you do not use the Symposium? (and this question is directed at all Citizens willing to answer, since we all have the right to use the Symp, but clearly we do not).

I believe Citizens should primarily be active in the "normal Forums". As I understand it, being awarded Citizen is a means to recognize individuals for significant contributions made to the forums/site. But after having received the award. they are also meant to be an example to other members, both in behaviour (hence the stricter rules they have to adhere to) and by what they have done and might still be doing for the betterment of TWC. This is how I see it, others may (and probably will) see this quite differently.

Of course we need a place where we can manage and engage in doing the things that are exclusive to the Citizenry. Everything else I would prefer seeing done in the "normal forums". If we really are above average contributors in one way or the other, we should show that as much as possible outside the Capitol.

[Iskar]

I believe Citizens should primarily be active in the "normal Forums". As I understand it, being awarded Citizen is a means to recognize individuals who made significant contributions made to the forums/site. But after having received the award. they are also meant to be an example to other members, both in behaviour (hence the stricter rules they have to adhere to) and by what they have done and might still be doing for the betterment of TWC. This is how I see it, others may (and probably will) see this quite differently.

Of course we need a place where we can manage and engage in doing the things that are exclusive to the Citizenry. Everything else I would prefer seeing done in the "normal forums". If we really are above average contributors in one way or the other, we should show that as much as possible outside the Capitol.

A further, very good point that goes beyond personal preferences and questions of mere activity.

[PikeStance]

I do not see why the Symposium needs to "recover" anymore than the Curia in general. Most citizens think the Curia is a wasted space. Should it be removed do to it being mostly dead space? No, it does have a purpose, just as the symposium for some. It enjoys some activities over the time I have been a member. It is more active when the Curia is more active. The Curia is not very active, so it shows in the symposium. Our goal shouldn't be to retreat, but to revitalized. We are literally legislating ourselves out of utility. What once was unique about the site is slowly being removed by choice. This will be another stagnate gaming site. The unique attraction gone, mods gone, content elsewhere.

I have been a member since 2011. I can recall when the Curia were pretty active. It wasn't the most active, but it had vitality. I watched it has it dismantle itself. Now, it is a mere shell, a shadow of itself. Instead of choosing to recapture what it once was, too many people are content with killing it off bit by bit. We thought the Curia was a disease that can be cured. Unfortunately, the cure is killing it faster than the disease ever threaten to do. It is sad, many of you do not even know what I am talking about because you came in only a few years ago. That is the simple fact.

I still have to ask... why is it so important to remove the Symposium? It literally harming nothing.

[♔atthias♔]

I do not see why the Symposium needs to "recover" anymore than the Curia in general. Most citizens think the Curia is a wasted space. Should it be removed do to it being mostly dead space? No, it does have a purpose, just as the symposium for some. It enjoys some activities over the time I have been a member. It is more active when the Curia is more active. The Curia is not very active, so it shows in the symposium. Our goal shouldn't be to retreat, but to revitalized. We are literally legislating ourselves out of utility. What once was unique about the site is slowly being removed by choice. This will be another stagnate gaming site. The unique attraction gone, mods gone, content elsewhere.

I have been a member since 2011. I can recall when the Curia were pretty active. It wasn't the most active, but it had vitality. I watched it has it dismantle itself. Now, it is a mere shell, a shadow of itself. Instead of choosing to recapture what it once was, too many people are content with killing it off bit by bit. We thought the Curia was a disease that can be cured. Unfortunately, the cure is killing it faster than the disease ever threaten to do. It is sad, many of you do not even know what I am talking about because you came in only a few years ago. That is the simple fact.

I still have to ask... why is it so important to remove the Symposium? It literally harming nothing.

I still have to ask why is it so important to not remove the symposium? it is doing nothing
sorry pike it works both ways.
no offence intended!!!
as for dismantling the curia nothing will change if we just keep everything the same way nothing changes what we need is to advance and atract more people to the site
to do this we need to cut useless ballast wich the symp is

[PikeStance]

I still have to ask why is it so important to not remove the symposium? it is doing nothing
sorry pike it works both ways.
no offence intended!!!

The symposium is here. It doesn't work both ways. It has a purpose. It is not useless. It is underused. For those that use it, it has value. Obvious for those that don't, it does not have value.

as for dismantling the curia nothing will change if we just keep everything the same way nothing changes what we need is to advance and atract more people to the site
to do this we need to cut useless ballast wich the symp is

They said this when they removed the CdeC.
They said this when they removed the requirement for Moderators to be citizens.
They said this when they removed the word "rank" from the Constitution.
They said this with the promise that things would be better.
Unfortunately, things are not better, but worse.

Citizenship has drifted into meaningless because we have created it as such. We are told those days are gone. If that is the case, then this site would eventually be gone to.

What gave this site uniqueness and vitality was citizenship. It was a social medium before social medium existed. This site is losing to other mediums because it is not making an effort to recapture it. Instead, it is doing its best to go in the opposite direction hoping that this final step will bring more people to be interested in the site. The sad fact is there isn't anything worth being here for. In 2016, we had 21 citizenship applications. There were 30 the year before. To give you some perspective; there were 68 applications in 2012. 2012 wasn't even the highest total. Total war games are not getting less popular, but this site is. Why? I keep asking this question and every one keeps ignoring it. What do we get, proposals like this,... "the Symposium is cluttering up the index, it is useless, we need to get rid of it and people will find this site more useful and we will be popular again." Wrong,.. this discussion is pointless and a keep waste of time.

[Frunk]

To be blunt, I am unconcerned with the Citizens who you say believe the Curia is a wasted space. They are absent from this part of the site and that is their choice. I am only concerned with that which is, and those who are, present, and that is the 20-30 regulars of the Curia. None of these 20-30 regulars of the Curia use the Symposium. In addition to the numerous statistics presented by myself and others like Veteraan and Iskar, the Symposium has seen total 1 post in two completed months of 2017 (depending on one's timezone). The Curia, meanwhile, has reversed its waning activity in the past several months, but this has not affected the Symposium positively whatsoever.

I have said that I would be delighted with an active Symposium, but I have not been presented with a scenario in which this might become a reality once more. I reject the alarmist notion that the Curia is dismantling itself. Over time, Citizens have elected a course for the Curia to follow, based on functionality and practicality, as opposed to ruing any suggested change as "killing off" the Curia. Were they all wrong? The Symposium is dead. Unless an effort is taken to revive it, it will stay dead. A dead forum is a useless forum. Just because Citizens can use the Symposium for various things, a fact that you suggest is its purpose, Citizens clearly do not want to use it, and thus its purpose is moot.

I respect that you are standing up to challenge certain things, but, cutting through the rhetoric, I, and I imagine others, do not appreciate being painted as wanting to dismantle the Curia, kill off the Curia, or as part of a disease affecting the Curia; as part of an omnipresent "they" who are either ill-informed or ill-intentioned. Nor, frankly, do I care what the Curia used to be, or that I wasn't around in 2011 to know what it was like back then and earlier, IF no justification is given as to why that status quo should remain untouched in the baseless hope that the glory days somehow return. I care about the here, and the now.

[PikeStance]

To be blunt, I am unconcerned with the Citizens who you say believe the Curia is a wasted space. They are absent from this part of the site and that is their choice. I am only concerned with that which is, and those who are, present, and that is the 20-30 regulars of the Curia. None of these 20-30 regulars of the Curia use the Symposium. In addition to the numerous statistics presented by myself and others like Veteraan and Iskar, the Symposium has seen total 1 post in two completed months of 2017 (depending on one's timezone). The Curia, meanwhile, has reversed its waning activity in the past several months, but this has not affected the Symposium positively whatsoever.

My concerns is for all citizens, past, present and future. More general, the site at large.

I have said that I would be delighted with an active Symposium, but I have not been presented with a scenario in which this might become a reality once more. I reject the alarmist notion that the Curia is dismantling itself. Over time, Citizens have elected a course for the Curia to follow, based on functionality and practicality, as opposed to ruing any suggested change as "killing off" the Curia. Were they all wrong? The Symposium is dead. Unless an effort is taken to revive it, it will stay dead. A dead forum is a useless forum. Just because Citizens can use the Symposium for various things, a fact that you suggest is its purpose, Citizens clearly do not want to use it, and thus its purpose is moot.

It harms none by leaving it for those who may choose to use it. There is no reason to remove at all.

I respect that you are standing up to challenge certain things, but, cutting through the rhetoric, I, and I imagine others, do not appreciate being painted as wanting to dismantle the Curia, kill off the Curia, or as part of a disease affecting the Curia; as part of an omnipresent "they" who are either ill-informed or ill-intentioned. Nor, frankly, do I care what the Curia used to be, or that I wasn't around in 2011 to know what it was like back then and earlier, IF no justification is given as to why that status quo should remain untouched in the baseless hope that the glory days somehow return. I care about the here, and the now.

Interesting. You want to replace "rhetoric for disingenuous interpretation. You chose to personalized the comment when I spoke of consequences of action. I made no mention of intentional malice, but you inserted it.
Looking at the here and now is a foolish way to take action. Everything has a cause and effect. One thing playing the Go has taught me is that every action creates a reaction. There is a push and a pull. If you push to hard, you most likely will find yourself on the losing end more of then than not. While beneficial to look deep into things, one must always look afar to see at a distant the total effect.

Th effect before us was not started in 2011 or even 2015, but years before. Each action was naturally created because people concern themselves only with the here and now. Every suggestion I have made looked to how it will effect hings in the future.

[Lifthrasir]

They said this when they removed the CdeC.
They said this when they removed the requirement for Moderators to be citizens.
They said this when they removed the word "rank" from the Constitution.
They said this with the promise that things would be better.
Unfortunately, things are not better, but worse.

May be, but I'm not convinced at all that there's a direct causal relationship between these

Citizenship has drifted into meaningless because we have created it as such. We are told those days are gone. If that is the case, then this site would eventually be gone to.

What gave this site uniqueness and vitality was citizenship. It was a social medium before social medium existed. This site is losing to other mediums because it is not making an effort to recapture it. Instead, it is doing its best to go in the opposite direction hoping that this final step will bring more people to be interested in the site. The sad fact is there isn't anything worth being here for. In 2016, we had 21 citizenship applications. There were 30 the year before. To give you some perspective; there were 68 applications in 2012. 2012 wasn't even the highest total. Total war games are not getting less popular, but this site is. Why? I keep asking this question and every one keeps ignoring it. What do we get, proposals like this,... "the Symposium is cluttering up the index, it is useless, we need to get rid of it and people will find this site more useful and we will be popular again." Wrong,.. this discussion is pointless and a keep waste of time.

I disagree. TWC was a modding community before to be a social community in the large meaning of that word. Agree that Total War games aren't less popular. They have all, more or less, the same sales records (at least on Steam). But what is different are the people. People who used to play originally Rome or Medieval II aren't necessary the same as the people playing Attila or Warhammer. New generations have come. Old one have gone. New medias and new social networks have come.
This being said, my point is that moving (or archiving, depending on opinions) the Symposium is not getting ride of the past, or to remove something "useless" or done in the hope to increase traffic or anything like that but just a little step forward to show that this site, despite its "old" age is still able to evolve. Citizenry is a great principle but it needs to be updated, not in its substance but at least in its form (meaning how citizenry is perceived from outside).

[PikeStance]

May be, but I'm not convinced at all that there's a direct causal relationship between these

I disagree. TWC was a modding community before to be a social community in the large meaning of that word. Agree that Total War games aren't less popular. They have all, more or less, the same sales records (at least on Steam). But what is different are the people. People who used to play originally Rome or Medieval II aren't necessary the same as the people playing Attila or Warhammer. New generations have come. Old one have gone. New medias and new social networks have come.
This being said, my point is that moving (or archiving, depending on opinions) the Symposium is not getting ride of the past, or to remove something "useless" or done in the hope to increase traffic or anything like that but just a little step forward to show that this site, despite its "old" age is still able to evolve. Citizenry is a great principle but it needs to be updated, not in its substance but at least in its form (meaning how citizenry is perceived from outside).

if you were to read through the threads from the past to present, there is a pattern that emerges. With each step "forward" the site took a step "backwards."It isn't apparent when you see the steps up close. It is only after you see things from afar that you see the pattern. So, I am not surprise people do not see it. Of course, when I say this, I get rhetorical responses about not being interested in the past. It is the past that holds the keys to revitalization. When you remove a brick. It is just a brick. When you start to take more and more bricks, you still will not see what is happening. However, someone from a distance can see that the structure is unsound.

Then there is the myth that the site much evolve as if anything done in the past somehow is irrelevant for the future. This is not remotely true. People do not change as radically as you may think they do. If anything, promoting this site as a social media makes more sense. At least it did when they came up with blogs only to let the matter die. In the end, the only people who can improve the site is the owner and the admin. There is little the Curia can do to change perception. TWC has a poor reputation. A hot new site will kill this site altogether. The uniqueness will be a relic of the past. The lack of the "useful-ness" of the symposium is a symptom of a larger disease. You cannot cut it off and hope to save it from the disease itself. The problem is still there.... un- address. This is all I am pointing out. The symposium can be removed, but what next? There is still something MORE to be done. Will it be done or will we cut off another part for sake of "evolving." This is wasted effort... effort better served for being consensus on ways to improve the reputation and usefulness of the site in general.

[Lifthrasir]

The idea is not to permanently remove the Symposium (at least, that's how I see it) but rather to move it within another forum (Archives or Curia or anywhere else Citizens agree). Past can be kept as reference/history but in any case it shouldn't prevent us to move forward. Keeping things as they are for years and are proven to not be "active" or to not bring any "benefit" anymore (and that doesn't mean it necessary brings bad things), doesn't serve the Curia nor the site. If we're not able to show that we (Citizens) can evolve, we will always appear as a static relic from the past, covered by dust and dreaming about its former glory.
In this proposal (moving the Symp), I don't see anything that will have huge consequences but a little step to show that we can move forward. I don't expect any specific benefit ever from this within a short term period but little move by little move, we might end to something finally good.

[Iskar]

You're falling prey to a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" (after it hence because of it), Pike. What you see as a "pattern" of making things worse is just the site adapting to new circumstances - circumstances that are indeed less favourable than a decade ago, but the measures taken are not the cause for this change in circumstances, but their consequence. You sound as if turning the sails would change the direction of the wind.

[PikeStance]

The idea is not to permanently remove the Symposium (at least, that's how I see it) but rather to move it within another forum (Archives or Curia or anywhere else Citizens agree). Past can be kept as reference/history but in any case it shouldn't prevent us to move forward. Keeping things as they are for years and are proven to not be "active" or to not bring any "benefit" anymore (and that doesn't mean it necessary brings bad things), doesn't serve the Curia nor the site. If we're not able to show that we (Citizens) can evolve, we will always appear as a static relic from the past, covered by dust and dreaming about its former glory.
In this proposal (moving the Symp), I don't see anything that will have huge consequences but a little step to show that we can move forward. I don't expect any specific benefit ever from this within a short term period but little move by little move, we might end to something finally good.

No citizen nor member of this site would think for one moment that the existence of an inactive forum means that.

You're falling prey to a "post hoc ergo propter hoc" (after it hence because of it), Pike. What you see as a "pattern" of making things worse is just the site adapting to new circumstances - circumstances that are indeed less favourable than a decade ago, but the measures taken are not the cause for this change in circumstances, but their consequence. You sound as if turning the sails would change the direction of the wind.

How foolish I have been. All this time I thought I can understand patterns, trends and anomalies, but you have shown me the way.

[Lifthrasir]

No citizen nor member of this site would think for one moment that the existence of an inactive forum means that.

Probably not but that wasn't my point. My point was that I think it is important to show that we're trying to evolve. If we stay "static", the site will die. Major changes failed for various reasons. Why not try little changes like this one?

[PikeStance]

Probably not but that wasn't my point. My point was that I think it is important to show that we're trying to evolve. If we stay "static", the site will die. Major changes failed for various reasons. Why not try little changes like this one?

Evolve to what? You cannot just randomly push for "change" and call it evolving. Blindly "moving" is no guarantee that the movement is "forward."

[Aikanár]

I find the argument of the removal of the symposium from the main index in order to declutter said index rather comical. Everybody can easily collapse or minimize certain aspects of the forum index, so if you're not using the symposium or if you're not interessted in it, simply minimize the Capitol and you're done with that. Also, it's one of how many forums? The mere visual benefit is rather assessable.

If you want to declutter the main forum index, I'd rather propose to make TW-Games (all of them) use the same structure as the rest of the forum. Minimize them all and make them subforums of one big TW-Games section, like this:

Please don't get me wrong, I'm all for improving the site. However, I can't see the huge benefit of removing just one forum from the main forum index. To me, as a more or less casual onlooker these days, this appears just comical, when I compare that to the other issues this site suffers from: slow responsivenes (even on top notch internet), overcome and partially intimidating forum strucutre, fading or dying communities, intransparrency with regards to the future of the site and participation and many other things. Citizenship and Citizen participation in the diverse subforums of the Capitol is but one symptom of many which together make up the current state of TWC - at least as I perceive it.

Moving a single forum from on place to another will not change a damn thing with regards to activity in said forum. This is true for the Symp and is just as true for all forums with next to non-existing use at the moment.

I use myself as an example. Nowadays I have a very limited amount of time available for recreational purposes. I'd love to use the little time I have at hand contributing to this site, even if it might only be reading postings or a casual post of myself. However, there is very, very, very, very little incentive for me to do so. Why is that? Mostly it's because I can't find a vision what this site and its communities aspire to be(come). According to my opinion, the Curia is a mirror of the entire site with that regard: a lot of potential, but neither a goal, nor a programm and no transparency or leadership effort. I've read through the curial changes subforum (which I would've loved to contribute to btw.) and I'm delighted with what I can read there. But then again, somewhen the effort stopped. Nothing happend. That is rather typical, I'm afraid to say.

Then take the new FP. The Article and blog feature is huge! It's really great, but it's underwhelmingly facilitated, especially blogs.

However, back to the Curia and the Symp. I don't think that moving the Symp to spot X will solve anything. I don't even think it's relevant to anybody besides those who proposed it. Why don't we focus on doing somthing with Citizenship, the Capitol and indeed entire TWC to revitalize them?

[Lifthrasir]

I somehow fully agree with you. This "proposal" won't change the face of the site. It won't change the Curia. It won't create any traffic or make more members willing to become Citizens. Regarding involvement for the site, ironically, most of the most active members are those who have the less free time.
I see this as an opportunity to reach an agreement. For instance, some people have said that they don't want anychange for the Simp. Some others want to archive it. Some want to move it as a subforum in the Curia. From the 2 first groups, there are people who have said that despite their own opinion, they are fine if the 3rd choice is chosen. That's the principle of a compromise.
If we can't (or should I say not able to) find a compromise for just a little thing as such, how can we agree for major changes for the benefit of the site?

[Iskar]

Yes, Aik, as is often the case your analysis of the general situation is quite spot on and I, too, would love to see this site prosper and flourish. I have two points of caution/contention, though:

1) In fact, I daresay the site is not faring that badly and constantly calling doom in rememberance of the good old days is perhaps somewhat out of place. People are still debating, modding, chatting - differently than a decade ago perhaps, but as long as we find enjoyable entertainment on this site it is far from dead.

2) This is not a question of whether we either do something about the Symp or something else. We can do lots of other things and this, arguably small, suggestion to remove/archive an dead subforum is not even necessarily linked to some great plan for revitalising the Curia. It is just a simple matter of removing that which is no longer used and I do not understand why every single change suggested gets conflated with the eternal discussion about revitalising the Curia. This is no fruitful approach to suggestions and needlessly dramatises otherwise rather simple issues. A simple small suggestion does not need to yield a huge benefit, just a small benefit, such as an easier to browse Capitol.

[Aikanár]

I agree, Iskar. That's why I'm not in general in disfavour of this idea. I remember that I said some months ago that I'd be in sympathy to either archive it or make it a subforum if something would need to be done. I stand by that. I've no issue with the movement of the Symp - I simply call in question the effect of that if the purpose of the movement would be to achieve anything other than a simple movement of a forum which is not really used at the moment.

My question is, why not use the energy of all of you in this thread and do that kind of thing for the entire forum structure or for one bit after another instead of the Symp only? I agree with you that we should not do nothing, but do something. Lets be that advisory body that we can be.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Frunk kind of is, although there hasn't been much in the way of different people joining in the discussion so getting more opinions and thoughts would be good I imagine.