How can anyone be a conservative?

[Enros]

Yeah. And? What are we discussing?

Given that, how can you justify identifying as a conservative? What is more important that those issues?

[removeduser_487563287433]

Given that, how can you justify identifying as a conservative? What is more important that those issues?

Because I don't need to vote for those individual MPs and I am not responsible for the views of any other individual? Because it was a Conservative Government that introduced and passed the bill, using a free vote?

[Copperknickers II]

Gay marriage is a bit of a misnomer. The actual issue is government recognition of gay marriages and awarding them "legitimacy", as well as some economic benefits. I highly doubt many people want to criminalize private gay relationships that call themselves marriages.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Unrecognised marriage isn't marriage, marriage is defined as 'the legally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship'. An unrecognised marriage is just some people saying some words to each other and having a party, you can't use the word 'marriage' to describe that if there is no legal recognition. Legal parity with heterosexual married couples is exactly the issue of gay marriage, since most Western countries already have civil partnerships so it's about having total equality, it's not about protecting gay people from persecution because that is an issue for developing countries in Africa and the Middle East that we have long since outgrown.

The, "if you don't like gay marriage don't get one" argument doesn't work either. You could easily call for repealing all business regulations with the same logic. "If you dislike jobs that pay $2/hour, don't get one." Or how about ownership of weapons; "If you don't like nuclear weapons don't get one." It's a logically inconsistent argument.

On the contrary, the minimum wage has real world effects: it protects workers from being exploited, and it strengthens the economy by weeding out businesses which aren't viable. If companies are allowed to pay $2/hour it will increase crime and massively increase poverty and ill health. Same with nuclear weapons - in the event of a nuclear war millions will die. Nobody is harmed by legalising gay marriage however so there's no reason not to do it, other than bigotry. In fact it might even contribute to saving a few lives by reducing the sky high suicide rate among the LGBT community.

[athanaric]

They usually have even less equality than developed countries.

So why don't you focus on them? Of course, that would require extra learning...

Our collective actions as a society.

Not mine.

I will use the UK as an example, but the same problems apply to other developed countries:

No they don't. Firstly, other developed countries didn't secede from the EU. Some couldn't, even if they wanted to, because they're called Canada or Japan, etc. Secondly, you don't know every developed country. Or are you telling me you've done extensive research on all of them, and visited them all?

Sexism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10386937.html http://www.parliament.uk/business/co...e-check-forum/

These links don't prove that there is a gender pay gap, and they don't account for different life choices.

Racism: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36964916

First off, Lithuanians and Poles are white. So are many Brazilians. So there goes your dumb theory that "people of colour" (by which you mean non-whites) are discriminated against. These attacks are against anyone who looks or talks foreign, regardless of race or colour (and at least they're only verbal attacks. In some other, less "developed" places, they would be murders and rapes). Secondly, good on the BBC to call racism against white people racism. Maybe they're starting to see the light. Thirdly, the term "people of colour", being an artificial distinction between whites and non-whites, is retarded and racist. Everyone has a colour, even Albinos. Or how would you like it if someone referred to all non-blacks as "people of light"?

Homophobia: http://lgbt.foundation/About-us/medi...s-and-figures/

But surely you are already familiar with this, right?

I may not be familiar with the latest in crazy victimhood complex. Also, Britain isn't Germany isn't France, etc.

[RangerGxi]

how can anyone be a conservative?

People value tradition, religion and the status quo. It's that simple.

The religion prescribes regressive ideas and they follow. They percieve leftist ideas on equality, tradition and faith dangerous and so advocate for the status quo or for a glorious past. Leftists do get a bit crazy and sometimes that reaction is entirely justified and sometimes its not.

On your belief of inequality with the developing world, many conservative thinkers would argue that free trade and deregulation would allow these economies to prosper just like the US.

[bigdaddy1204]

The religion prescribes regressive ideas and they follow. They percieve leftist ideas on equality, tradition and faith dangerous and so advocate for the status quo or for a glorious past. Leftists do get a bit crazy and sometimes that reaction is entirely justified and sometimes its not.

I think this is a bit overly simplistic. Religion isn't always regressive - actually religion follows a progressive/regressive split in exactly the same way that politics does. There are people who come to religion with a left wing stance, and people who come to it with a right wing stance. What you seem to have missed is that a written text isn't as clear cut as it might seem. How should it be interpreted? For example, even these words I'm writing now. What's my intention? It's difficult to tell from the written words on the page. It also depends on the context. What if I've posted something else in another thread that relates to this post? What if I've posted a few pages back in this one? What if one of us has said something which has a bearing on the current discussion? The list is endless.

The same applies to religious text. It's a bit of a cliche, but context really is important. Hugely important. It can completely change the meaning that one takes from a particular verse, and I have personal experience of seeing that.

Anyway I suppose that was a rather tangential point I was making - actually the general thrust of your post was quite good and I think you made a valid point about tradition. Thanks for sharing.

[RangerGxi]

The same applies to religious text. It's a bit of a cliche, but context really is important. Hugely important. It can completely change the meaning that one takes from a particular verse, and I have personal experience of seeing that.
.

Thats where the glorious past and tradition come in. People tend to sculpt the principles and the history of their religion to suite their narratives and ideals.

People view religion as central to their identity. With this in mind it makes sense that changes in a peoples identity will mean changes to how their religion is practiced.

Using the example of Ahmadiyya Islam. Educated middle class Muslims in the British Empire decided to reject all violence and fight for Islam through debate and conversation. They had developed an appreciation for the enlightenment and had come to value peace and stability through their jobs as merchants/shopkeepers/tradesmen. Their version of Islam is the product of their backgrounds.

Traditionalist Americans value themselves as exceptional and see religion and deregulation as central to a good society. They'll ignore how big unions in the 50s increased the standard of living and ignore the stabilizing power of secularism.

[bigdaddy1204]

Well said - I think this a good explanation of why Conservatism in America is successful today. It also has interesting implications for the future of religions around the world, notably when combined with increasing economic prosperity in developing countries.

[Love Mountain]

Well said - I think this a good explanation of why Conservatism in America is successful today. It also has interesting implications for the future of religions around the world, notably when combined with increasing economic prosperity in developing countries.

Conservatism in America is literally dying. Though to be fair, it has recently mutated and found a niche among young people today. Pseudo-intellectuals, losers, and basement dwellers. Traditionally that demographic used to be radical leftists instead, but the extreme left and extreme right is a coin flip. It's not like those people actually understand anything they say, it's like 2nd generation migrants in their late teens or early twenties, they go to ISIS and do stupid because they've found something to gather around.

[RangerGxi]

Conservatism in America is literally dying. Though to be fair, it has recently mutated and found a niche among young people today. Pseudo-intellectuals, losers, and basement dwellers. Traditionally that demographic used to be radical leftists instead, but the extreme left and extreme right is a coin flip. It's not like those people actually understand anything they say, it's like 2nd generation migrants in their late teens or early twenties, they go to ISIS and do stupid because they've found something to gather around.

As far as self-identification goes, this current generation is becoming the most conservative. Most young people seem to value free expression and most people overall seem to hate giving corporations special treatment. The mainstream left and left wing academia have embraced PC culture & censorship and the Democratic Party (not left but they're seen as that) are corporatists to the core.

[Cope]

Conservatism in America is literally dying.

Three months ago the Republicans won the House, the Senate and the Presidency. Generation Z is projected to be the most conservative generation since 1945.

Though to be fair, it has recently mutated and found a niche among young people today. Pseudo-intellectuals, losers, and basement dwellers. Traditionally that demographic used to be radical leftists instead, but the extreme left and extreme right is a coin flip. It's not like those people actually understand anything they say, it's like 2nd generation migrants in their late teens or early twenties, they go to ISIS and do stupid because they've found something to gather around.

Appealing to the extremes doesn't mask the reality that a considerable percentage of ordinary people voted in favour of Donald Trump and Brexit. Nor does it mask the notable discontent brewing in the Western world more generally over globalism - the negative aspects of which are blamed on high-minded liberal establishments. I bet the majority of people do not know who Milo Yiannopoulos, Alex Jones or Gavin McInnes are. I bet even less (virtually non) know what 4Chan is. Conservatism - by which I mean social and cultural as well as political conservatism - hasn't mutated, it's simply recovered its voice for the time being.

[bigdaddy1204]

I think its also worth mentioning the utter political failure of the left in Britain. Their left party Labour is beyond dead. This leaves no real alternative to the Conservatives.

[RangerGxi]

I think its also worth mentioning the utter political failure of the left in Britain. Their left party Labour is beyond dead. This leaves no real alternative to the Conservatives.

Same story in every western commonwealth country. You have the safe-space junkies that want to censor and the conservatives that want to destroy institutions people like and censor.

Corbyn is in particular a pretty terrible leader though. Always making stupid statements (Falklands, Immigration) and abandoning positions like euroscepticism because he doesn't have the backbone to fight the media. Even without sjw nonsense the left is doomed and that is because of poor leadership. Left wing movements pretty much require ultra-charismatic and dynamic characters to take the helm.

[Love Mountain]

Three months ago the Republicans won the House, the Senate and the Presidency. Generation Z is projected to be the most conservative generation since 1945.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/09/...ers-1992-2016/

Millenials will be the dominant voting power of the 21st century and they heavily lean Democrat. I take any projections about Gen-Z with a grain of salt. I was actually a fiscal conservative in my late teens, but that's before college and education.

Appealing to the extremes doesn't mask the reality that a considerable percentage of ordinary people voted in favour of Donald Trump and Brexit. Nor does it mask the notable discontent brewing in the Western world more generally over globalism - the negative aspects of which are blamed on high-minded liberal establishments. I bet the majority of people do not know who Milo Yiannopoulos, Alex Jones or Gavin McInnes are. I bet even less (virtually non) know what 4Chan is. Conservatism - by which I mean social and cultural as well as political conservatism - hasn't mutated, it's simply recovered its voice for the time being.

Yes, you bet. You underestimate the reach of Internet and Social Media. Ironic, considering its reach helped strengthen the Trump effect.

As far as self-identification goes, this current generation is becoming the most conservative. Most young people seem to value free expression and most people overall seem to hate giving corporations special treatment. The mainstream left and left wing academia have embraced PC culture & censorship and the Democratic Party (not left but they're seen as that) are corporatists to the core.

It's a myth that the Democrat Party is corporate-owned. I hate to break it to you, but private interests contribute more to whichever party is in power.

[jockmcplop]

I think its also worth mentioning the utter political failure of the left in Britain. Their left party Labour is beyond dead. This leaves no real alternative to the Conservatives.

This was a shame. The hard left were waiting for so long for a chance and they took it on completely the wrong guy. He has some decent policies but they are more than ruined by the terrible ones, and his habit of making stuff up on the spot while doing interviews (even policies for crying out loud) has just destroyed Labour. It doesn't help that the centre faction have worked against him from day one (Mandleson recently said "I try to undermine Corbyn every single day").
What's even worse is that having bet on the wrong horse, the left (as they seem to have a habit of doing now) simply doubled down on their dud leader instead of admitting they were wrong and looking for someone better while their platform still existed.

[Prodromos]

Conservatives have more power today than at any time in a hundred years. If any ideology needs to reexamine their beliefs, it is the Left.

[athanaric]

Three months ago the Republicans won the House, the Senate and the Presidency. Generation Z is projected to be the most conservative generation since 1945.

Apart from that, there are billions of socially conservative people in developing countries.

Same story in every western commonwealth country. You have the safe-space junkies that want to censor and the conservatives that want to destroy institutions people like and censor.

Corbyn is in particular a pretty terrible leader though. Always making stupid statements (Falklands, Immigration) and abandoning positions like euroscepticism because he doesn't have the backbone to fight the media. Even without sjw nonsense the left is doomed and that is because of poor leadership. Left wing movements pretty much require ultra-charismatic and dynamic characters to take the helm.

The difficulty is to find someone who is neither an ideological nutjob of the social justice, identity politics, anti-Western, no borders etc. kind, nor a corrupt, pathologically narcissistic megalomaniac like Tony Blair or Hillary Clinton (or a combination of the two, like Merkel).

[jockmcplop]

Conservatives have more power today than at any time in a hundred years. If any ideology needs to reexamine their beliefs, it is the Left.

I think its more that the left (especially the loudest, hardest left factions) need to examine how they put their beliefs into practice. If certain leftists hadn't been so utterly obnoxious about shoving their identity politics agenda in everyone's faces over the last 10 years Trump wouldn't be in power now, it would probably be some other republican. They have dug their own grave and its not going to be easy to get out of for sure.
Its a shame because as a leftist I've been shoved in there with 'em.
The worst thing about all this is that the identity politics brigade think they can get out of this mess by being even louder and more obnoxious about their beliefs than they were before, as if that's going to endear them to voting Joe. The left should be focusing all of our attention on wealth inequality if you ask me, where the obvious injustice lies (not just domestic but worldwide). Wealth inequality at the level we have today is a terrible, terrible crime and could be somewhat fixed without really hurting anyone (if you, like me, believe that it doesn't hurt to $4 billion instead of $8 billion as an individual). But no, the loony left just wants to go find their next 'cis-white' person to brand racist for disliking the extreme rate of change of culture that's been forced on them for the last decade or two.

[bigdaddy1204]

There are some really good posts in this thread. I wish politicians would read some of the sensible suggestions here made. One question might be: what happens now? Now that the traditional left seems headed for extinction, who is going to stand up for human values? If someone doesn't do something, the society could be headed for a bleak future, and nobody wishes that.

[Copperknickers II]

I think its also worth mentioning the utter political failure of the left in Britain. Their left party Labour is beyond dead. This leaves no real alternative to the Conservatives.

*In England. And the main reason for the collapse of the left is usual cyclical politics. In 2020 Labour will have a decent leader again and we'll have a Labour government. Hopefully. Probably not. Maybe 2025. Tbh I wouldn't vote Labour if I had a gun to my head until they get a Scottish leader who supports independence and I suspect many Scots feel the same, but that isn't harming them too much on a nationwide basis since contrary to popular opinion, Scotland has almost never decided an election in favour of Labour, back when we used to be a dependable Labour stronghold I mean. But there are plenty of centre left politicians in the UK and they'll soon rise up out of the Corbynite ashes.