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Thread: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

  1. #1

    Default [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Hello all, I bring to you a WIP culture and colonization mod for DeI.

    What is it?


    Kulturkampf increases cultural tension between traditionally antagonistic peoples and repurposes the colonization and conversion system of DeI. To give a few examples of what I'm working on:

    *Hellenic Genius: Greek Factions are persuasive but unstable. To achieve this I altered the Public Order balance for Hellenic Culture, hopefully to simulate the turbulence of Greek politics. In my test campaigns this has seemed to be the case. Greek culture is irresistible and powerful, as it was nearly everywhere the Greeks colonized. Greek ports and temples spread Hellenic culture.

    *Roman Integration: Rome colonizes via arms, farms and fame. The more powerful you become, the faster your conquered regions should integrate. However, some areas will fight Roman rule tooth and nail. Expect near constant rebellion requiring a governorship and military presence to subjugate.

    *Reworked Timeline:
    In the few test campaigns I've been running it takes roughly 1 generation (20 years) to achieve a 30% culture presence with a semi-compatible culture (i.e. Roman colonizing Greek/Illyrian). After about 45 years the culture will have become majority faction dominant, but again, only with effort.

    *Note: This mod does not effect the diplomatic relations between factions of different culture groups. I'll leave it up to the DeI team which already has a great dynamic with their hardcore/softcore submods. KK only affects internal faction dynamics, the integration process and governance.

    ****Updated 27 NOV for compatibility with 1.2c and the Power and Politics Beta



    Please give me feedback on the Steam workshop, Cheers:

    Links: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1214120317

    Details for modders:

    This mod was edited with the following method:

    Sub-tables labeled with @(Sub-table) edited existing DeI values:
    Barbarian Temple Values, Eastern Public Works/Water, Eastern Temples, Hellenic Ports, Hellenic Temples, Hellenic Public Works, Roman Ports, Roman Public Works, Roman Temples, Special Buildings

    Sub-tables labeled with @@(Sub-tale) added new features:
    Hellenic Public Works (Added Slave/Tradesman Populations)
    Eastern Ports (Added Mercantile Populations, Slave Populations)
    Roman Ports and Public Works (Added Mercantile, Slave and Tradesmen Populations)

    The following DeI tables are overruled by this mod:

    Barb_Forum_Public_Water
    Barb_Temples
    East_Forum_Public_Water
    East_Temples
    Hel_City_Ports
    Hel_Forum_Public_Water
    Hel_Temples
    Rome_Forum_Public_Water
    Rome_Temples
    Special_Capitals
    DeI_diplomatic_relations_religions
    character_skill_level_to_effects_junctions
    DeI_region_religions
    DeI_religion_conversion_mods
    DeI_religions
    Last edited by tullyccro; November 27, 2017 at 04:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    interesting concept

  3. #3

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    "The more powerful you become, the faster your conquered regions should integrate. However, some areas will fight Roman rule tooth and nail. Expect near constant rebellion requiring a governorship and military presence to subjugate. " So, conquered regions will never be conquered and rebell all the time? Or do you mean that they will keep rebelling untill your culture has become dominant?

  4. #4
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    it would be interesting if you could include PoR into this,
    f.e. that the higher the proportion of your own citizens in a region,
    the higher the cultural influence of your faction.

    Sadly, I know next to nothing about scripting, what it entails, how to do it and its potential.
    Would be cool of the devs to clarify if it is in any way possible to have this effect in the game.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  5. #5
    Ritter-Floh's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    really interesting stuff, but we need Dresden and Litharion for this

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    That is most interesting, i liked the inner faction conflict risk.

    Imagine how hard to subdue Iberia, Greece, Gaul as Romans. If it serves to ignite more rebellions and less stable expansion of an empire then it's gonna be a masterpiece.

    Great initiative tullyccro,

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    "The more powerful you become, the faster your conquered regions should integrate. However, some areas will fight Roman rule tooth and nail. Expect near constant rebellion requiring a governorship and military presence to subjugate. " So, conquered regions will never be conquered and rebell all the time? Or do you mean that they will keep rebelling untill your culture has become dominant?
    Here's are the essential mechanics, as I am trying to tweak everything:

    Building Effects: Historically, different cultures had different means of spreading their culture.

    For Rome, this was religious syncretism and outright re-settlement. To imitate this, Roman farms, Temples and Public Works all effect to spread Roman Culture in KK. This is a cumulative value, so the more farms, temples, and public works you have in all of your settlements, the faster subjugated cultures will integrate and convert to Latin culture. This makes for a kind of snowball to avalanche effect. Early expansion will be tough and integration will be harder to achieve. Later expansion will be a bit faster due to the cultural "weight" of your empire. Also, due to antagonism between certain groups, certain regions will be harder to assimilate early game vs end game.

    In my current campaign (Playing as Macedon), Sicily has yet to be fully conquered by Rome or Carthage or Syracuse after roughly 60 turns due to factional rebellions and instability in that region, which is historically accurate. Sicily was a centuries long struggle between Greeks, Latins, Italians, and the Carthaginians. Similarly, as Macedon, I am able to subjugate Hellas proper, however, moving into the Balkans requires a lot of coordinated effort and diplomacy. Also, due to the instability assigned to Hellenic culture, I can takeover a Hellenic faction but roughly every 20 years or so will face significant order penalties.

    For Greeks, temples and ports are your main hubs of culture. Given the mercantile and Mediterranean nature of greek colonialism, I chose ports as another factor for Greek culture. Greeks face lower level of conflict subjugating other cultures, can quickly spread culture, but face inherent instability given Greek political instabilities.

    Diplomatic_Relations_Religions_Tables:

    This table has been altered to create more internal conflict/rebellion/unrest in conquered regions. Every cultural relationship in the game can be tweaked here. So, for example, German culture groups can easily assimilate Celtic and Balkan culture groups, however, they cannot easily assimilate Greek or Roman culture groups and will face nearly endless rebellion until their culture becomes the dominant one.

    In the case of settlements which are hard won from Greek and Roman cultures, a German culture group will have to provide a large order of stability, entertainment, security, and public order to even be able to hold a German-dominant region with a significant Greek/Roman minority (25% or so). So even after "assimilation" it can be hard to fully control these regions as a German culture.

    That is most interesting, i liked the inner faction conflict risk.

    Imagine how hard to subdue Iberia, Greece, Gaul as Romans. If it serves to ignite more rebellions and less stable expansion of an empire then it's gonna be a masterpiece.

    Great initiative tullyccro,
    This is exactly what it's meant to do. No more steamrolling. New cultures, new regions, must be carefully integrated and chosen. If you try to send your early legions on a mission to colonize Caledonia, it will not work. If you try to make Athens Parthian by turn number 50, it will not last.


    it would be interesting if you could include PoR into this,
    f.e. that the higher the proportion of your own citizens in a region,
    the higher the cultural influence of your faction.

    Sadly, I know next to nothing about scripting, what it entails, how to do it and its potential.
    Would be cool of the devs to clarify if it is in any way possible to have this effect in the game.
    I have a few ideas about incorporating elements of PoR into this and am trying to look under the hood to see how this could work. I also have an additional idea I might try to roll into this mod in terms of PoR mechanics, which is where Army Composition affects public order, political occurrences and stability, i.e. if your Army Composition ratio doesn't reflect your population ratio, there should be conflicts between the orders. Historically, this was the case. Roman citizenship and military success depended on the middle classes who made up the bulk of the legions, however, this effectiveness required political power be expanded to Plebeians and enfranchisement to freed men. So let's say you compose an army entirely of nobles... You should face penalties from your lowest class and slave class because if the nobles are all engaged in warfare those classes would have been politically empowered domestically. Similary, if your Army is composed predominantly with commoners or lower classes, your nobles/rulers should acquire negative traits due to their idleness/decadence. I'd love to work on the internal mechanic with culture/class and the great stuff PoR brought to the table.


    Please help me optimize this. Will take any and all suggestions to mind.

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    I wouldn't really want this be part of the base game :p, but regardless, it looks really impressive. I might give it a try to test it though, so
    Diplomatic_Relations_Religions_Tables: would also make users able to customize the difficulty level of colonization?

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Hey guys, is this submod still in work? I thought about giving it a try with my Egypt campaign (currently around turn 30). However, I'm using the hardcore population mod and I still don't really understand how population is affected by this submod. Would using both mods result in endless depopulation and kill my entire mapower pool? And would it be savegame compatible?

  10. #10
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    I don't know.
    I would have tried this but it isn't openable in PFM, weird.
    So I can't see what's in.
    Anyone else has this problem? First time it happens.

  11. #11

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Fantastic idea! Where are we with this?

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    For me it was possible to open and edit the mod after download from Steam. But cultural penalties are so high and conversion is so slow that I did not really enjoyed this. For me it was enough to use hardcore DEI sub mod that already makes cultural conversion way slower then in base mod version. In this mod cultural conversion is non existing and is a big pain to deal with constant -16 public order penalties in all regions.

  13. #13

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    I think I won't use it then, at least for now. The hardcore pop mod is already quite a challenge and I won't change anything more in my campaign.
    It's a pity though, the concept sounds really nice. Hopefully the author comes back to it. If you need beta-testers tullyccro, I'm all in

  14. #14
    Meraun's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Most interesting, i hope this leads to a nice submod

    w a r f a r e a c t i v i t i e s | s p e c i a l i s t p r o t e c t i o n i n c
    Meraun | HIVE | Community Veteran

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_92 View Post
    Hey guys, is this submod still in work? I thought about giving it a try with my Egypt campaign (currently around turn 30). However, I'm using the hardcore population mod and I still don't really understand how population is affected by this submod. Would using both mods result in endless depopulation and kill my entire mapower pool? And would it be savegame compatible?
    This mod is still in progress but works with the latest version. It should load before (and overwrite) any of the official submods like hardcore/softcore. Is also campaign/savegame compatible so you can try it and then discard it if you don't like it.

    Population is not affected, only internal political and cultural dynamic which is determined by cultural conversion and %.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Armitage View Post
    I don't know.
    I would have tried this but it isn't openable in PFM, weird.
    So I can't see what's in.
    Anyone else has this problem? First time it happens.
    Not sure why that would be the case. Was 100% edited with PFM. Maybe check to make sure you have all latest schema info from the PFM site? Altered tables are: building_effects_junctions_tables (sub-tabled for compatibility); campaign_variables_tables (also sub'd for compatibility), and DeI_diplomatic_relations_religions_tables (which is the only table to overwrite vanilla DeI).

    Quote Originally Posted by JCB206 View Post
    Fantastic idea! Where are we with this?
    Have a working and enjoyable version on Steam. Try it and let me know what you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by babaikasc View Post
    For me it was possible to open and edit the mod after download from Steam. But cultural penalties are so high and conversion is so slow that I did not really enjoyed this. For me it was enough to use hardcore DEI sub mod that already makes cultural conversion way slower then in base mod version. In this mod cultural conversion is non existing and is a big pain to deal with constant -16 public order penalties in all regions.
    For some groups this is very true. Will consider dialing the penalties back and maybe put out a lighter impact version. Note: I tried to make this as historically plausible as possible, i.e. Latin culture can subdue and convert Celtic culture faster and easier than the inverse. Am open to suggestions on balance but it is intended to drive more historical development. Also, conversion impact is cumulative so larger empires can convert faster, albeit still slower than vanilla. Example, as the Romans, it should take roughly 25-30 years (or 100-120 turns) to Latinize Cisalpine Gaul, Sicily or Spain. However, it should be roughly double if not triple to Latinize cultural resistant provinces such as Britain, Germania, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_92 View Post
    I think I won't use it then, at least for now. The hardcore pop mod is already quite a challenge and I won't change anything more in my campaign.
    It's a pity though, the concept sounds really nice. Hopefully the author comes back to it. If you need beta-testers tullyccro, I'm all in
    Appreciate the feedback from all. Try it out. I recommend a new campaign but it is compatible. Expect resistance and rebellion and significantly slower expansion for both the human and AI sides. And like I said, will consider a "lite" version if anyone wants a more subtle version. Currently enjoying a 200+ turn with Macedon where all major historical factions are still present and in action. Seleucid/Parthian conflict has been ongoing for 25-50 years, Carthage/Rome are still at it in Spain and N. Africa with Rome only taking Sicily after a 20 year conflict. Celtic, Germanic and Dacian tribes are bouncing around nicely with not one preeminent empire. Give it a shot and you might like it despite the initial difficulty in expansion.

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Ok thanks for the feedback. Your mod may be a bit wonky for egypt though, as the faction culture is hellenic but you need egyptian culture to keep up the PO. Surely some extra challenge and quite historical (greeks were foreign rulers after all) but it could be annoying (because some buildings like ports spread hellenic culture and you constantly need to counter that with agents and buildings). I'll keep you posted how it feels.
    Last edited by Chris_92; February 28, 2017 at 10:50 AM.

  17. #17
    Joysong's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Expect resistance and rebellion and significantly slower expansion for both the human and AI sides.
    very good that you pointed this out. yesterday i was looking in to this but got a feeling that is only for player with more civil wars. atm im having a roman campain with 200 turns. alot of factions are expanding an suebi en MacedoniŽ are destroyed. ill start a new campaign with this mod an play arround 200 turns with rome. let you know what happend. i also use the decreased movement submod.

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_92 View Post
    Ok thanks for the feedback. Your mod may be a bit wonky for egypt though, as the faction culture is hellenic but you need egyptian culture to keep up the PO. Surely some extra challenge and quite historical (greeks were foreign rulers after all) but it could be annoying (because some buildings like ports spread hellenic culture and you constantly need to counter that with agents and buildings). I'll keep you posted how it feels.
    Good points all. That is definitely an unintended consequence but could make for an interesting dynamic, especially since the Ptolemies were a bit notorious for instability and meddling. Again, interesting side effect that might need some alteration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joysong View Post
    very good that you pointed this out. yesterday i was looking in to this but got a feeling that is only for player with more civil wars. atm im having a roman campain with 200 turns. alot of factions are expanding an suebi en MacedoniŽ are destroyed. ill start a new campaign with this mod an play arround 200 turns with rome. let you know what happend. i also use the decreased movement submod.
    Appreciate it and hope you enjoy. To my knowledge, changing these mechanics should not affect Civil War probability at all. However, it is a challenge to tie down armies in recently conquered provinces to suppress rebellions until conversion can happen.

  19. #19
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    May I suggest you look into the Rome II version of Magnarīs "A reasonable Populace" mod?
    It offers a very interestic concept, which IMO would work rather well with your changes.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Submod] Kulturkampf for DeI

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    May I suggest you look into the Rome II version of Magnarīs "A reasonable Populace" mod?
    It offers a very interestic concept, which IMO would work rather well with your changes.
    Interesting indeed. Might try to integrate and reach out to Magnar on this. Will keep you posted on any additional revis.

    V/R

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