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Thread: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Icon3 Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Something came to my mind while playing ATW. What I can see is that it’s much more difficult to build siege apparatus in ATW (you’ve usually get little building-manpower and it takes many turns to make even one siege weapon), so you need to bring onagers with you. They have limited ammo and they are expensive (if anything in ATW is expensive, well, too much money is just one of many flaws of this game...). Additionally, there are damage-penalties (if the settlement is damaged, the defender gets crippling penalties for morale and attack and attack damage stats) and only one-third of the settlements have any walls. All this make siege battles rare but serious bussineses. You really need to beat field armies first, have a big army, and you need to spend time sieging, unless the garrison is very weak (in this case - autoresolve).

    On the other hand in M2TW I usually raise a siege one turn, and I attack the following turn with a few ladders and a ram. There’re little pros for sieging longer (just some defenders die), so why to wait. Well, that’s pretty un-historical: in the medieval times the armies needed long time to sit around a castle to be able to take it. And storming was really difficult, unless there're just few defenders (I recall having seen Dover and it was said that 12 knights were defending against an army, perhaps a exaggeration, but still).

    My question is: maybe we should lower the number of siege points coming from the size of the army? Is it possible? Have other mods tried it in the past (or currently, maybe EB2 or TATW?) With what results or conclusions? Or did the SSHIP creators considered it?
    It draws up many related questions:
    - how would the BAI respond? Would it handle it? And if there’d be problems, would they matter? How many time does a player fight a defensive battle ? (me, frankly, almost never: either AI is so much stonger than my forces in a settlement, that I just autoresolve, or I manage to send a relieving forces)
    - on the map, how CAI would handle it? In particular, would it make problem for CAI to take settlements from the other AI-factions?

    I’m thinking about it in the perspective of my modding. The additional siege points in different traits (like military education) absolutely redundant from my perspective. I add them because they were there from the beginning (perhaps M2TW, not SS inclusion). Maybe we could make them meaningful? I’d love situation when a general would be very able in the battles (experienced, well-tempered), but would find it difficult to take a settlement because of lack of education or certain features of the character (- Storm it now! - Sire, we are not ready yet. - Now, I want it now! I'm a brave person, I trust in God, and I don't need any engines!).

    JoC

    PS. I've created a new thread since no of the old ones was really on this subject.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 15, 2022 at 10:43 AM.
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  2. #2
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    I don't know for the other mods you mentionned and I haven't especially looked at it. So, why not

    Anyway, a beginning of answer might be found with the Settlement Tweak from Germanicu5. However, it seems that there might be a bug in it (see this post). But it would cost nothing to have a look at it.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  3. #3

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    if there are traits that increase siege points, i guess we could make the opposite, traits that reduce siege points

    would be really cool actually if siege equipment was limited, like 2 rams 1 siege ladder and 1 siege tower

  4. #4

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    if there are traits that increase siege points, i guess we could make the opposite, traits that reduce siege points

    would be really cool actually if siege equipment was limited, like 2 rams 1 siege ladder and 1 siege tower
    Yes this is a great idea, make traits that reduces siege points,also for generals that dont receive a good military education
    Also it would be cool if ladders were possible to tear down from the walls, i think that is a little unrealistic go with your ladders,put in the walls and defensor can not do nothing for quit it...i dont know if medieval 2 engine is possible...

    Other things is also make traits with ''bad points'' for factions that historically didnt make good siege units or cost much maked for lack of knowledge, for example cumans...also i think that should need a lot of points of siege for make a siege tower than a ram, and need more points for make a ram than a ladder..
    In middle age was very difficult make a siege tower without a good army and engineers..so this is my opinion
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  5. #5
    Hellvard's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Maybe it's possible to remove ladders entirely, or make them usefull only against wooden walls and impossible to use on stone walls?





  6. #6
    Civis
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    @Hellvard, would be cool. Can you lay ladders on huge walls ?

    Siege towers are pretty vulnerable against fire balistas so bringing 1 or 2 is not enough you can test it. Maybe in later game make them buildable at 1,5 rate instead of 1:1
    Last edited by shadowtwinz; February 08, 2017 at 04:05 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    i think that is a little unrealistic go with your ladders,put in the walls and defensor can not do nothing for quit it...i dont know if medieval 2 engine is possible...
    Code:
    projectile tower_ballista
    
    effect        large_arrow_trail_set
    end_effect   large_arrow_explode_set
    end_man_effect            man_impact_small_set
    damage        8
    damage_to_troops 12
    radius        0.1
    mass        0.2
    accuracy_vs_units    0.015
    accuracy_vs_buildings    0.0001
    min_angle    -70
    max_angle    45
    velocity    90
    ;bounce        0.5 0.6 0.5 0.4
    display        aimed particle_trail invert_model_z
    model        data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_high.CAS,  40.0
    model        data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_med.CAS,  80.0
    model        data/models_missile/missile_ballista_bolt_low.CAS,  max
    these are the settings i've been playing with for a while and i noticed that sometimes ballistas while trying to shoot at enemy soldiers also ended up hiting enemy ladders destroying them and causing enemies to fly down, quite amusing

    EDIT: there's also a bunch of stuff regarding ladders in battle_config.xml, maybe we can use that to reduce ladders effectiveness, unfortunately i dont know what values and how much to change
    Last edited by Dekhatres; February 08, 2017 at 07:23 PM.

  8. #8
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    if there are traits that increase siege points, i guess we could make the opposite, traits that reduce siege points
    would be really cool actually if siege equipment was limited, like 2 rams 1 siege ladder and 1 siege tower
    If anybody finds / makes a research how the siege points mechanics work, and what adding "minus 5 SiegeEngineering" to a generals personality would have meant, we could weigh pros and cons and I could propose implementation (or tell why it's not needed).
    For instance, how many siege points are added from a unit of 120 men? Does it depend on class of a unit? How does the AI takes into account those points ? etc. etc.
    Mod leader of the SSHIP: traits, ancillaries, scripts, buildings, geography, economy.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    If you want to play a historical mod in the medieval setting the best are:
    Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project and Broken Crescent.
    Recently, Tsardoms and TGC look also very good. Read my opinions on the other mods here.
    ..............................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods (all made in 2018): SSHIP, Wrath of the Norsemen, Broken Crescent.
    Follow home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Hints for Medieval 2 moders: forts, merchants, AT-NGB bug, trade fleets.
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding. Shieldwall is promising!
    Dominant strategy in Rome2, Attila, ToB and Troy: “Sniping groups of armies”. Still there, alas!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    If anybody finds / makes a research how the siege points mechanics work, and what adding "minus 5 SiegeEngineering" to a generals personality would have meant, we could weigh pros and cons and I could propose implementation (or tell why it's not needed).
    For instance, how many siege points are added from a unit of 120 men? Does it depend on class of a unit? How does the AI takes into account those points ? etc. etc.
    i am not optimistic about it tbh, it's probably all hardcoded

    imo the only working solution (for now atleast) is stronger towers, i've played about 2 campaigns with the ballista towers settings above and i am somewhat satisfied, low damage but high rate of fire seems to do the trick, the result is that even after your siege towers and ladders get to the walls you're still not safe, if a ballista hits one of the ladders it will destroy it and your troops will fly down, siege towers will also keep taking damage so you have limited time to get your troops on the walls, not counting the fact that some of your siege weapons will cath fire and wont even reach them

  10. #10
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    That's interesting Dekhatres. Can you expand a bit?
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  11. #11

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Code:
    			stat		12, 0, tower_ballista, 150, 10, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, piercing, ballista_tower, 350, 1			stat_attr	no
    			shot_sfx	TOWER_BALLISTA_FIRING	
    			fire_angle	70
    
    
    			; unit size 	 reload_ms flaming_reload_ms 
    			fire_rate small  7500	   	 3750		
    			fire_rate normal 6000	   	 3750
    			fire_rate large  4000       3750
    			fire_rate huge   3000       3750
    ballista towers in descr_walls, as you can see the fire rate is increased, this is just me personal preference however, i think this is about right, a faster fire rate and the AI wont get any siege weapons to your walls, a slower fire rate and the ballista towers upgrade is not really worth it

    oh and btw in descr_projectile the ballista tower dmg is 4 not 8, dmg to troops is correct tho

    so in the case of siege towers what happens is that even after the siege towers have reached your walls the towers will try and hit enemy units, now with the angle of fire i gave to towers in descr_projectile they will try to shoot at enemy units even when they are on the walls, like arrows do, what this means is that the ballista towers doesnt care where the enemy units are, they will try to kill them as they are climbing the ladder inside the tower so they will end up hiting the siege towers because that's where the enemy is, the tower will take damage althrough low, but eventually it will get destroyed

    same thing with ladders, the ballista towers will try to kill the enemy even while the enemy is climbing the ladder and sometimes it will hit the ladder not the soldier, the ladder will be destroyed in 1 hit and all the soldiers that were climbing that ladder will fly down


    ladders however dont always get destroyed to the last or even at all, they are small and hard to hit, sometimes all the 4 ladders remain intact sometimes all get destroyed, siege towers do get destroyed eventually almost all the time because they are big and easy to hit, so right now i am thinking of increasing the accuracy of the ballistas so they can hit ladders more often but not too often

    also considering increasing the fire rate of burning oil
    Last edited by Dekhatres; February 09, 2017 at 11:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    I'd be quite happy if modifications in this part of the game would be done. I think the defence of castles is ahistorically very weak in M2TW. I think the castles were real strongolds in the middle ages and they were able to defend for long time with much lower numbers than the aggressor.
    One of the things Attila does better than M2TW is the power of missiles - this kind of troops is quite powerful for defense there while in M2TW they're much less useful.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I'd be quite happy if modifications in this part of the game would be done. I think the defence of castles is ahistorically very weak in M2TW. I think the castles were real strongolds in the middle ages and they were able to defend for long time with much lower numbers than the aggressor.
    One of the things Attila does better than M2TW is the power of missiles - this kind of troops is quite powerful for defense there while in M2TW they're much less useful.
    yes it's true castles were pretty hard to take and required a relatively small garrison to defend however in medieval 2 settlement castles are more like fortified towns, they arent the typical small castle on a hill or mountain, they are more of a city with high walls and a citadel, so i dont think they should be that much harder to take than normal towns/cities


    the castles that generals can build are indeed more like the ones we're talking about, the problem is that the AI is known to be a complete retard at using them


    the only really good solution i see would require modifications of the battle map, basically most of the walls should be made non attackable, like how you cant put ladders or siege towers on some parts of the walls, exactly that way most of the walls surrounding the castle would be made unattackable, and there would be only 1 or 2 walls that you can attack with ladders or tower at any given time, this way i think it would be possible for a small force to defend against a much much larger one

  14. #14

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    mmmm interesting contribution of Dekhatres...i think is a good idea make stronger ballista towers and also arrow towers(proyectile)for make more difficult assault a city or a castle(stone walls)and also make traits with bad or good traits for generals when they siege a settlement...i think that must have a big different in assault a minor city or wooden castle than a castle or a city with stone walls and better defense towers...and of course a fortress and citadels should be almost impregnable and maybe guarded by a force about 1 vs 3

    about most of the walls should be made non attackable, i think that is a bit unrealistic...maybe could make in battle map castle with ditch in some parts of the walls for make it inaccessible and also fortifications in high places where siege towers can not pass...

    THE MORE YOU SWEAT NOW,
    THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!



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  15. #15

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    about most of the walls should be made non attackable, i think that is a bit unrealistic...maybe could make in battle map castle with ditch in some parts of the walls for make it inaccessible and also fortifications in high places where siege towers can not pass...
    whatever, that's just aesthetics, however if we allow more than 2 walls to be attackable then there's no point in doing this at all, remember the goal is to reduce siege weapons effectiveness, i think the ideal would be to allow only the two walls near the gate to be attacked

    i can see such a change making siege battles really dificult even later in the game with gunpowder, since you wont be able to open many breaches and easily outplay the AI, the AI simply cant handle a coordinated attack on several fronts and with only 2 breaches he wont even need to

  16. #16
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    I got convinced by this and I'm now of the same opinion:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekhatres View Post
    in medieval 2 settlement castles are more like fortified towns, they arent the typical small castle on a hill or mountain, they are more of a city with high walls and a citadel, so i dont think they should be that much harder to take than normal towns/cities

    the castles that generals can build are indeed more like the ones we're talking about, the problem is that the AI is known to be a complete retard at using them

    the only really good solution i see would require modifications of the battle map, basically most of the walls should be made non attackable, like how you cant put ladders or siege towers on some parts of the walls, exactly that way most of the walls surrounding the castle would be made unattackable, and there would be only 1 or 2 walls that you can attack with ladders or tower at any given time, this way i think it would be possible for a small force to defend against a much much larger one
    The problem with balista towers is such that I very rarely meet them ingame. Perhaps the reason is I play factions rather on the outskirts of the technological world (early campaigns with Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Georgia) and if I'd play Pisa or France, they'd appear more often. Or when playing high era, maybe.

    Burning oil - there's a problem with the AI, I think. It sends his whole army through the gates once it's pulled down. The best tacticts for the player is, of course, to put heavy infantry standing just behind the gate, blocking this army under the gate, and waiting for oil to do the job. So I don't think it's a good idea.
    (on the other side it makes you leaving heavy infantry garrison in the settlements, which is a good incentive, given that the pecunary (and a-historical) incentive it to leave just crappy garrison behind. People use peasants for this, I've got a home rule not to use peasants, and they're going to be removed in next SSHIP afaik, but still - a bunch of Woodsmen policing a city is not very historical...)
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 11, 2017 at 01:48 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I got convinced by this and I'm now of the same opinion:


    The problem with balista towers is such that I very rarely meet them ingame. Perhaps the reason is I play factions rather on the outskirts of the technological world (early campaigns with Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Georgia) and if I'd play Pisa or France, they'd appear more often. Or when playing high era, maybe.

    Burning oil - there's a problem with the AI, I think. It sends his whole army through the gates once it's pulled down. The best tacticts for the player is, of course, to put heavy infantry standing just behind the gate, blocking this army under the gate, and waiting for oil to do the job. So I don't think it's a good idea.
    (on the other side it makes you leaving heavy infantry garrison in the settlements, which is a good incentive, given that the pecunary (and a-historical) incentive it to leave just crappy garrison behind. People use peasants for this, I've got a home rule not to use peasants, and they're going to be removed in next SSHIP afaik, but still - a bunch of Woodsmen policing a city is not very historical...)
    ballistas and burning oil are the only things we can actually do though, the others are just ideas

    i think we could make arrows be able to damage siege towers too but it would feel kinda unrealistic imo

  18. #18

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    The problem with balista towers is such that I very rarely meet them ingame. Perhaps the reason is I play factions rather on the outskirts of the technological world (early campaigns with Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Georgia) and if I'd play Pisa or France, they'd appear more often. Or when playing high era, maybe.
    Maybe. Check with spies and sabotage them if you see them, those are quite annoying.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    I was looking at some medieval representations of siege warfare on the British Library website in their collection of illuminated manuscripts.
    Now we know that medieval artists weren't too hot on accurate representing things, a lot was done according to artistic conventions but walls were certainly assaulted by escalade if it was physically possible to do so.

    As siege artillery - if you had sufficient firepower towns or castles could surrender very quickly once they got bombarded. Others, ofc, were made of sterner stuff.

    Siege weapons were often transported in pieces and re-assembled on-site. Stone throwing devices would have their balls carved by masons etc.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	assault on ridobane.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	651.9 KB 
ID:	343457

  20. #20
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: Siege battles in SSHIP - modification ideas

    I'd like to highlight a few points about medieval settlements. Not all of them had the same configuration as represented in game. That's just an engine limitation (1 model per culture). Basically in game, and I might be wrong, towns, cities and such represent economic centers while castles, fortress and such represent military centers and not necessary strongholds as mentioned by Deskhatres or j.a.luna. That's how I see them in game anyway.

    The other point is that quite a lot of "strongholds" created during the early Middle Ages became cities when they could develop. Basically, there was a stronghold, then inhabitants came around or beside it. A wall was made for protection and so on. Note that walls were not necessary made only for defense purposes but also to allow an easier control (mostly for tax) of what was going inside. Finally, the original stronghold was incorporated into the settlement (inside or just on its limit). On some other cases (rarer), the stronghold was built after the city to reinforce the seigniorial power.
    When equipped with double walls, these settlements used to leave the space between these walls empty of any construction to allow the deployment of engines such as catapults and/or leave a narrow space without any protection. That means if an enemy could breach the 1st wall, he would be stuck between 2 opposite lines of fire. Not to mention the possibility for the settlemenjt to make a counter-attack. Carcassone, for instance, is a good representation of my meaning.



    Some settlements looked like the one in game. Some others didn't have any walls at all. I don't mention the one who kept their Roman legacy or the very specific one such as the bastides, mostly in South-West of France, or the Lithuanian one, mostly in wood until the 13th or 14th century (if my memory serves me well).
    All in all, the settlements in game aren't that bad considering the engine limitations. They can be improved but it requieres some specific skills that none from the team has at present. Not to mention that such change will requier tests to be sure that the AI can handle these changes.
    Limiting the walls that can be climbed or changing the fire rate of the towers might be a short term solution (meaning easy and quickly made) to improve the gameplay on that side.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

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