The past and the future of the Symposium

[Frunk]

While my knowledge of the D&D is limited, I am aware that there is also Garb's Fight Club as an option for debaters, but it too is inactive. I'm also aware it has a slightly different format to other D&D forums, and to what the Symp could be if it was used, but I think it goes to show that debaters don't really need anywhere else to debate, otherwise they would already be there, like Veteraan said.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

So when we are going to decide about the future of symposium?

My proposal is this : move the thread "New Citizens Post Here" here in curia and archive the rest forum. Right now the forum is "dead', we could make new threads here.

[Iskar]

There is also a couple of threads that might be of interest to the LHF, like HorseArchers account on him as the last emperor.

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Αnyway we should make a poll of the threads that we want to move to curia and archive all the rest.

[Frunk]

I'll be preparing a proposal soon, but I think it's important we allow time for further input. The ongoing discussion into the LHF is relevant to the Symp, as well. If the Symp was to be archived, I would have suggested it be moved into the LHF, but obviously that would not be ideal if the LHF is to be moved to the Scriptorium. Thus, the Symp would need to be archived elsewhere, and I think it could just as easily be archived in the CVRIA (in the location that the LHF currently occupies). I am wary of stacking any more sub-forums within the CVRIA (4 is plenty already), so it would have to be one or the other (the Symp of LHF). Also, it's currently unclear to me whether a majority of Citizens would support the Curia becoming a place for Symposium-style general discussions (I personally would welcome that change), so this could use further discussion.

There's still one other option I personally would entertain, and that would be moving the Symp into the CVRIA as a sub-forum, but leaving it open (i.e. the second option in the above poll). This could be done for a trial period (6-12 months, for example), and if after that period the Symp is still inactive, it could be closed for posting and left in place as an archive. Alternatively, it could have enough activity to justify leaving it open for posting for an extended trial, or an indefinite period. A third possibility at the conclusion of the trial period is that the Symp becomes highly active whilst a CVRIA sub-forum, and once again justifies a place on the index.

Even though I voted for it, I have changed my stance on outright merging it with the CVRIA, as this would put threads all over the place, and make future changes to restore the Symp very difficult or, more likely, impossible.

[Veteraan]

(...)
There's still one other option I personally would entertain, and that would be moving the Symp into the CVRIA as a sub-forum, but leaving it open (i.e. the second option in the above poll). This could be done for a trial period (6-12 months, for example), and if after that period the Symp is still inactive, it could be closed for posting and left in place as an archive. Alternatively, it could have enough activity to justify leaving it open for posting for an extended trial, or an indefinite period. A third possibility at the conclusion of the trial period is that the Symp becomes highly active whilst a CVRIA sub-forum, and once again justifies a place on the index.

I am not in favour of a trial period for the Symposium. Reasons being:

1. We already have seen a "real life" trial in 2016, the figures speak for themselves IMO.
2. A trial could lead to "false traffic" to up the number of posts.
3. A trial could lead to "boycotting" the Symposium to lower the number of posts

Besides that:
There are really only a few people that visit the current Symposium, let alone post there. Do we really need to keep providing a rather big space somewhere in the Capitol for a few people to post in now and then?

[b0Gia de Bodemloze]

Αgree to all with vet, let it rest in peace, don't force to keep it "alive"

[StealthFox]

I'd be okay moving it as a subforum in the Curia, but I'm still against archiving it or merging it.

[Lifthrasir]

Moving it as a subforum of the Curia seems to be a reasonnable compromise. I don't think a "trial" period is necessary if the concensus is reached by the majority. As a subfoum, it can be easily implemented/changed later on if necessary.

[Finlander]

I voted to make It a sub-forum but admittedly merging it with Curia is tempting as an idea.

Keeping the two separated continues to maintain Curia main where the discussion that matter well organized and easily followable. I like that and besides, just throwing in the current Symposium threads there would make it disorganised and perhaps confusing. On the other hand, the two sections aren’t that active (1,5 pages of threads created in Curia main since last year; fair amount alright) but Symposium is practically dead. Bouncing it from one place to another will unlikely make a change to its currently silent state.

The way I see it, if we want to create more casual type of thing within Curia, a merge might make the place more appealing: personally, I would rather spend more time in Thema Devia than lurking a chat sub-forum inside a low-activity places such as Curia. Now the only interesting thing for me are the Houses, but those threads aren’t really used now. When we have two quite small sections here, there are reasons for merging. On one hand, the merged area appears bigger and more active that is more appealing for discussion. This probably is only make-look, but might do the needed mind-trick to us. On the other, a merge would change the organized nature of the current Curia main to a more chaotic but casual environment. It depends on the viewpoint how you would value such a change, currently you find the relevant discussions easily when there are no Haiku threads in-between the serious talk. However, I could welcome such because a more casual environment might make the place appear more interesting to browse (the main target are members who aren’t already active in here). Again, a matter of perspective here: is it necessary to make another chat area when TD already exists - though, if the power of Curia is diminishing, would changing the serious talk areas to more casual strenghten the community feel of Citizenry?

[♔atthias♔]

As both a citizen and a debater, I might add, that at least to my personal experience, it is disproportionally more rewarding and interesting to discuss in the D&D and maybe accomplish a quality discussion by advancing good arguments and restraining yourself in the face of flak than the prospect to debate in the Symposium with no chance of interesting non-citizens popping in. Also, if I want a ridiculously aggressive and heated debate with citizens all I need to do is post an egalitarian proposal in the Proth - much more effective than the Symp could ever hope to be again.

LOL at the heated disscusion in the proth [sadly I cannot rep you for that]
but I agree whit you

[Iskar]

Why would we need to merge the two to have Symp style discussions in the Curia main? (Not that anyone was having them, anyway.) What might be important is the function of Symposium, not its current contents - those might only be of interest to the next head historian to sift through. Hence I am still in favour of just archiving it at the cemetery and be done with it. Veteraan has convincingly pointed out that it serves barely any purpose these days and the few casual discussions to be had can well take place in the (not really bustling) Curia main

[Finlander]

It is a good point and I agree, the merge isn't necessary if we just change the nature of Curia main and ultimately making the Symposium unneeded. Wasn't really thinking of the posibility of archiving it, was merely pondering the options of either moving or merging it. Now thinking of it, archieving sounds quite a good option. It probably wouldn't be a problem to re-create some of the threads existing in Symp., (such as those of the Houses unless they're relocated to The Living History forum, for example) giving it the place a fresh start.

[Frunk]

It probably wouldn't be a problem to re-create some of the threads existing in Symp., (such as those of the Houses unless they're relocated to The Living History forum, for example) giving it the place a fresh start.

That's my preference. What I would do, if we archived the Symp and made the CVRIA a place for casual discussions, is duplicate any threads that we would like in here (as opposed to moving them). This preserves the state of the Symp for posterity, and allows the discussions to continue where it left off. This need only be an option for threads whose existing posts we wish to still have for easy reference. I'd be just as happy to see various threads (New Citizens Post Here, perhaps, for example) recreated afresh.

[Iskar]

If I was bald and commanding a spaceship travelling where no man has ever been I'd say: "Make it so!"

[Veteraan]

If I was bald and commanding a spaceship travelling where no man has ever been I'd say: "Make it so!"

"to baldly go where no Curia has gone before"

I still don't see what the use is of duplicating or recreating a bunch of threads that are inactive, except for the welcome thread for new Citizens which I think should remain somewhere accessible. However, before making up my mind, I would like to see what (quantity) we are speaking of here:

That's my preference. What I would do, if we archived the Symp and made the CVRIA a place for casual discussions, is duplicate any threads that we would like in here (as opposed to moving them). This preserves the state of the Symp for posterity, and allows the discussions to continue where it left off. This need only be an option for threads whose existing posts we wish to still have for easy reference. I'd be just as happy to see various threads (New Citizens Post Here, perhaps, for example) recreated afresh.

[PikeStance]

These changes could be simply cosmetic, or they could have actual implications, such as the Curia taking over the mandate of the general discussions which are hosted in the Symposium, which indeed may not change much anyway. That is yet to be decided, obviously.

I fail to see how we're putting lipstick on a pig by proposing to take something (the Symposium) away. The Symposium exists as a white elephant on the forum index. It serves no purpose anymore (clearly, otherwise it would be active), so why should it stay where it is? That is why it is a topic of discussion.

Removing the Symposium doesn't do anything. it will not bolster the Curia. If not this discussion can be a case study about the uselessness of the Curia. It is hardly a white elephant as well. Since the site is not resource starve, removing it doesn't "free up" any space.

If you want to move it as a subforum of the Curia, that's fine. It would make it easily to navigate "within the Curia." Just maybe people will use it more if they can click directly from the Curia.

[Frunk]

How is it not a white elephant? Again, I ask you (anyone) the question: what purpose does the Symposium currently serve?

Removing it is the very definition of "freeing up" space on the cluttered forum index.

@Vet: I don't have anything specific in mind at the moment. If we identify any threads that are within the Symp archive that we want/need, that they could (should) be duplicated, instead of moved. I think the New Citizens thread should be recreated. No reason I can think of to move/copy it.

[PikeStance]

Ok,

There are 19 forum categories.
Official TWC Contests and Tournaments
3 Subforuns
Total War & Community News, Previews and Reviews
3 subforums
Total War: Arena & Multiplayer Battlefield
6 Subforums
Total War: WARHAMMER
4 Subforums
Total War: Attila
4 Subforums
Total War: Rome II
4 Subforums
Total War: Shogun 2
4 Subforums
Napoleon: Total War
4 Subforums
Empire: Total War
4 Subforums
Medieval II: Total War
5 Subforums
Total War: Eras
6 Subforums
TW General Discussion & Modding Community
2 Subforums
Non-Total War Games
13 Subforums
TWC Library and Creative Workshop
4 Subforums
Discussion and Debate
7 Subforums
Games, Activities and Chat
8 Subforums
The Capitol
3 Subforums
Supporting TWC
1 Subforum
Administrative Forums
6 Subforums

TOTAL
19 categories
91 Subforums

How is reducing it to "90" is it going to "free up" resources? It is literally less than 1% of the total number of subforums. It is more accurate describes as a white tiny mouse than a white elephant.
To put it another way,... if you were to collapse just one other forum (except the supporting TWC category) you will do 4 times more to reduce the convoluted index clutter than removing the symposium.

[Frunk]

You are only responding to one point amongst several. Not that it matters, but staff has recently removed two inactive forums from the top of the index. This is not about "resources", it's about centimetres on the forum index. The more dead centimetres that exist in plain site, the more inactive and ugly this site looks, especially to those from the outside looking in.

The definition of white elephant (according to Google): a possession that is useless or troublesome, especially one that is expensive to maintain or difficult to dispose of.

Again: what purpose does the Symposium currently serve?