Page 1 of 22 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 435

Thread: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

  1. #1

    Default [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    After using the All Faction Playable mod, I've started playing as Cyrene, which I found a very interesting faction. First of all, they're situated between Carthage and Ptolemaic Egypt, which is an interesting challenge. Then there's the already very diverse roster. And of course there's the fact that Cyrene is an underdog, which considerably spices up the campaign.

    But Cyrene was a short-lived kingdom, you might say. And while that's correct, it has been an important Greek colony long before then and there's ample reading material about it. In that respect, it's somewhat similar, to say, Kolkhis. And isn't the whole point of Rome II changing history, not recreating it?

    It is my hope that even if I don't finish the submod, someone might find information and concepts gathered in this topic useful.


    KYRENAIKE



    Spoiler for Faction Description
    According to Greek mythology, Cyrene (Kyrene) was the daughter of the naiad Creusa and the mortal Hypseus, king of the Lapiths. Apollo fell in love with her and took her to Africa, where he built her a city (called Cyrene), in the region that came to be known as Cyrenaica in eastern Libya. Herodotus tells a slightly different tale regarding the founding of Cyrene (or modern Shahat) circa 630 BC. According to the Histories, Grinus of Thera received a oracle at Delphi that Thera should found a colony in Libya. No notice was taken by the Therans of the oracle, until their island was afflicted with seven years of terrible drought. A visit to Delphi to determine the cause of their woes produced the advice that "that if they and Battus would make a settlement at Cyrene in Libya, things would go better with them.
    Spoiler for Faction Description


    Not knowing quite where Libya was, the Theran elders searched far and wide for a guide, finally finding a cloth merchant who offered to lead them to the island of Platea off the Libyan coast. After reconnoitering the island, the advance party returned to Thera where the elders drafted colonists by lots and put them under the command of Battus and equipped them with two penteconters. Not long after setting out, the would-be colonists attempted to return to Thera, but were driven off with showers of missiles. They eventually settled on Platea, but the drought continued in Thera and another oracle chided the Therans for not establishing their settlement on the mainland of Libya. This they finally did, convincing Battus and the Therans on Platea to shift the colony to Aziris on the Libyan mainland, where they struggled for six years. Finally, the native Libyans led the Theran colonists to the west, across the rich district of Irasa in the dead of night, to a high plateau on the upper slopes of Jabal Al-Akhdar, overlooking the sea. Here there was a spring, dedicated to Apollo, which was named Cyre (Kyre).

    During the reigns of Battus (40 years) and his son Arcesilaus (16 years), the colony struggled. During the rein of the third king, Battus the Happy, however, the oracle at Delphi encouraged the migration of Greeks to Cyrene, and a multitude of new settlers expanded outward to form new settlements, seizing lands from the neighboring Libyans. The port city of Barca (Barke) was founded at this time. The Libyan king Adicran appealed to Egypt for aid, prompting the Pharoah Apries to lead a large army against Cyrene, blissfully ignorant of the military prowess of Greek hoplites. The Cyrenaeans soundly defeated Apries, and his defeat prompted an Egyptian revolt in 570 BC. The Achaemenids conquered Egypt in 525 BC, ending Egyptian attempts at hegemony, while showing only modest interest in Cyrene itself, allowing the Battiad Dynasty to rule as satraps.

    In subsequent years, Cyrene and its port at Apollonia (Marsa Sousa) became the chief town of the Lybian region between Egypt and Carthage, and traded with all the major Greek cities, reaching the height of its prosperity in the 5th century BC. Greek colonists continued to overflow the city, creating new cities and ports, which operated within the Cyrenean sphere. The region was fertile and well-watered, with hills and light woods, in sharp contrast to the balance of Libya.
    In 431 BC, Arkesilas IV was assassinated, ending the Battiad Dynasty. Cyrene became a republic following a civil war with Thibron in which the Cyrenean republicans mustered an army of 30,000, including Carthaginian and Libyan allies.
    According to Thucydides (7.59), Spartan reinforcements (comprised of helots and ex-helots) bound for Sicily was blown off course to Libya in 414/413 BC. They were given two trieres by Cyrene, and repaid the favor by joining with Euesperides against the Libyans. a allied with Euesperides against the Libyans.

    The city made alliance and was subsequently absorbed into Alexander's Macedonian empire. In 324 BC, a rogue band of 5000 mercenaries under the command of Harpalus (who as later assassinated) and the Spartan captain Thibron took refuge in Crete, where a number of Cyrenean exiles persuaded them to reestablish themselves in Cyrenaicia. The pirate army landed first at Cyrene, seizing the nearby harbor and defeating the Cyrene army outside their gates. Beseiged, the city fathers paid a ransom of 500 talents of gold and chariots, and Thibron's pirates moved out to prey on other Cyrenaician cities. Feuded by local rivalies, the cities of Barca and Hesperis supported Thibron, who also recruited mercenaries from the Peloponnese. Cyrene raised its own army of 30,000 with Carthaginian and Libyan allies. A great battle ensued, with the Cyrenaician army proving no match for Thibron's experienced veterans. Cyrene was beseiged, and at the height of the seige, a republican coup within the city prompted the oligarchs and upper class to flee, many taking refuge with Thibron and others trekking to Egypt to plead for Ptolemaic intervention. Ptolemy sent an army under Ophellas, which prompted erstwhile foes Thibron and Cyrene into a futile alliance. Ophellas easily overwhelmed the allied force, capturing and crucifying the Spartan adventurer Thibron.
    Ophellas was appointed Ptolemy's governor or satrap (c. 322 BC) but revolted in 312 BC, ruling thereafter as an independent leader, thus representing the start of the Cyrenean I/56b list. Ophellas took an Cyrenean army with Athenian allies to support Agathokles of Syracuse against the Carthaginians in the first Punic War, but was murdered for his troubles in 308 BC. Again Cyrenea resisted attempts to restore Ptolemaic rule, but after five years Ptolemy's half-brother Magas (son of Berenice) was able to capture Cyrene and establish himself as governor.

    After a time, Magas fashioned himself as king of Cyrene (283/277 BC) and planned an invasion of Egypt. Ptolemy hired mercenaries and garrisoned the frontier in anticipation of their advance, but the Cyrene army was forced to turn back to deal with the revolt of the Marmaridae, a tribe of Libyan nomads. His military plans thwarted, Magas turned to political intrique. Using his marriage ties to Apame, daughter of Antiochus, Magas persuaded Antiochus to break the treaty which his father Seleucus had made with Ptolemy and to attack Egypt. Although Antiochus' plans failed to come to fruition, the threat distracted Ptolemy's attention from Cyrene. Magas ruled until his death in 250 BC, whereupon the Cyrenaica formed a loose federal government aided by Demophanes and Ekdemus of Arcada.

    In 246 AD, Berenike II, the daughter of Magas, married Ptolemy III, and Cyrenaica was reunited with Egypt. During the subsequent period of loose Ptolemaic rule, the Cyrenaican cities continued to grow and were equipped with permanent defensive walls. The old port of Barca was greatly expanded and renamed Ptolemais. Euesperides (Beaghazi) was renamed Berenice, and Taucheira (Tocra) became Arsinoe. Cyrene's port at Apollonia was recognized as an independent city, and the region of Cyrenaica became known as the Pentapolis or the land of the five cities.

    According to Polybios, the Cyreneans revolted against Ptolemy Physkon in 163 BC. In a pitched battle, Physkon drove off the Cyreneans Libyan allies but was unable to crack the Cyrenean phalanx. Cyrenaicia remained an independent kingdom under Ptolemy VIII until reabsorbed in 146 AD.

    In 96 B.C. the region of Cyrenaica was willed by Ptolemy Apion to Rome as an independent kingdom. The quaestor Cornelius Lentulus Marcellinus arrived in 74 BC and officially annexed the region as a Roman province, thus ending this army list. The city of Cyrene thrived under Roman rule until factions within the city rebelled during the Jewish revolt of 115 AD. The heavy-handed Roman General Marcus Turbo suppressed the rebellion by killing over 20,000 civilians and destroying much of the city, which never fully recovered.


    [Form of Government]

    Monarchy

    Comments: Cyrene was ruled by Battiad dynasty, then a republic during Persian occupation and it's a monarchy again when DeI starts, under Magas of Cyrene.

    [Faction subtype]


    Successor Kingdom

    Comments: I did consider keeping Cyrene as a Greek State (after all, it's been a Greek colony for a long time), but I felt that at the game start a Succesor Kingdom status was closer to the truth - Magas has usurped power from the Ptolemies, so I think that it makes most sense.

    [Faction boni]

    - Military Underdogs: +10% non-mercenary recruitment costs.

    - Silphium Trade:
    +10% trade income.

    - Athens of Africa: +10% research rate.

    (Comments)
    I was also considering using Cyrenean Fertile Lands: +25% wealth from agricultural buildings, but I don't think it makes much sense, considering it's only the Cyrene's lands that are that fertile.

    [Political factions]

    House of Magas (Magasian Dynasty? Not sure what would be the best term)

    Magas of Cyrene (c. 317 – 250 BC) was a son of Berenice I and Philip of Macedon. He was also a stepson of Ptolemy II and ruled Cyrene as his vassal, until 274 BC, when he rebelled and named himself king. Later on he even attempted to seize Alexandria, but was unsuccesful. Although his new found dynasty was short-lived, it's up to the player to change the course of history...

    Macedonian Nobility

    Macedonian Kleruchoi who have acquired a higher social standing, members of the elite.

    Pentapolis Nobility

    Greek nobles of the five cities of Cyrenaica - Cyrene, Apollonia, Ptolemais (which ultimately overshadowed Barce), Taucheira and Euhesperides. The “old” aristocracy.

    Jewish Nobility

    Multiple sources point to the Jews being heavily Hellenized, we also know that they were employed at the various levels of administration in Egypt. They were also apparently held in high regard by Ptolemy I, who entrusted the safekeeping of Cyrene to them. Jewish generals served in the Ptolemaic armies of the later periods as well (Helkias and Ananias); that suggest the growing influence of the Jews in the Ptolemaic Kingdom as the time passes. We don't know that much social standing of the Jews in Cyrene in 3rd century BC, but with the aforementioned knowledge we can speculate a bit.


    [Population classes]


    Kleruchoi (Military settlers, mainly Macedonians)
    Politai
    (Greeks other citizens of higher standing)
    Laoi (native population as well as other free peoples populating Cyrene)
    Xenoi (slaves and everyone else)

    [Kyrene Region modifiers]

    Base Government: -5% public order penalties from foreign culture.

    Base Food Production: +4 food from this region.

    Base Growth:
    +4% growth per turn in this region.

    Tax Potential:
    +10% tax rate.

    Grazing potential:
    +10% wealth from livestock buildings.

    Trade Potential:
    12% wealth from all local commerce buildings.

    Industrial Potential:
    -10% wealth from industrial buildings.

    Silphium Trade Hub: 3% tariff

    Export Food Edict:
    -3 food (local provincial edicts).

    Export Food Edict:
    +20% local farming income (local provincial edicts).


    (Comments) Considering the information I've gathered about Cyrene's fertility, trading potential and heavy urbanization, these seem the most logical.


    Spoiler for Custom Capital

    Kyrene
    Level I


    • -2 food
    • +1 growth per turn
    • +2% research rate
    • 507 wealth from subsistence
    • +5% wealth from all sources
    • 75 wealth from maritime commerce
    • + 0.1 All Population Classes





    Kyrene
    Level II


    • -5 food
    • +2 growth per turn
    • +3% research rate
    • 844 wealth from subsistence
    • +10% wealth from all sources
    • 150 wealth from maritime commerce
    • + 0.5 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class



    Kyrene
    Level III – Trade



    • -6 food
    • -6 public order
    • +4 growth per turn
    • +4% research rate
    • 1350 wealth from subsistence
    • +40% wealth from all sources
    • 300 wealth from maritime commerce
    • + 0.5% 1st Class Citizen
    • + 0.5 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class




    Kyrene
    Level III – Regular



    • -6 food
    • -3 public order
    • +3 growth per turn
    • +6% research rate
    • 1182 wealth from subsistence
    • +20% wealth from all sources
    • 200 wealth from maritime commerce
    • + 0.7 1st, 2nd and 3rd Class


    Kyrene
    Level III – Fortified



    • -7 food
    • -3 public order
    • +2 growth per turn
    • 844 wealth from subsistence
    • +10% wealth from all sources
    • + 0.5% 3rd Class Citizen
    • + 1% 1st and 2nd Class



    You can explore the first sketch of the Cyrenaean roster here:

    CYRENEAN ROSTER - PART I
    Jewish Military Settlers

    CYRENEAN ROSTER - PART II
    Libyans

    CYRENEAN ROSTER - PART III
    Greeks & Macedonians

    [Credits]

    Cyrene description courtesy of Fanaticus.org - original source: www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/I56.html

    Cyrene Faction Emblem -
    ep1c_fail & cino
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; February 19, 2017 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    About the faction symbol, I think Silphium plant would be a great choice, considering it was Cyrene's main item of trade.

    And it was pretty much omnipresent on the currence used by the inhabitants of the Cyrene:






    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; January 28, 2017 at 04:22 AM.

  3. #3
    hippacrocafish's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,691

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Great idea, though I don't know what I could contribute besides googling for random info. I did find this wikipedia page on the Libu:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libu

    It says that Libya is a Latin rendering of Libu, which is Greek.

    EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of mention of a tribe called Meshwesh that lived near Cyrene, who apparently conquered Egypt and ruled its 19th and 20th dynasties.
    Last edited by hippacrocafish; January 19, 2017 at 11:58 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by hippacrocafish View Post
    Great idea, though I don't know what I could contribute besides googling for random info. I did find this wikipedia page on the Libu:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libu

    It says that Libya is a Latin rendering of Libu, which is Greek.

    EDIT: I'm seeing a lot of mention of a tribe called Meshwesh that lived near Cyrene, who apparently conquered Egypt and ruled its 19th and 20th dynasties.
    Thanks! I've found an interesting book in the sources, this will prove very useful. This does offer some basis for having Libyan nobility, I will have to research it a bit more.

    I'm currently trying to figure out which culture should Cyrene have (and temples). Judging by the coinage, they did predominantly worship Zeus-Ammon and Apollo Krneios. Temples of Demeter, Artemis, but also Sanctury of Isis and Serapis were found in the ruins of Cyrene. All that probably means slightly modified Ptolemaic Kingdom temple chain could be used.

    I just wonder whether it's possible to mix and match temples for a particular faction in that fashion. But if it were, I'd go with the ones mentioned above.
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; January 19, 2017 at 12:12 PM.

  5. #5
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    5,866

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    You can mix and match all you want You can even name them whatever you want. They could be worshipping us. Temple of Dresden, sanctuary of Ritter-floh
    It is possible for you to faction lock buildings. So in this case where you want to mix and match, you could create these temples and just lock them for this particular faction.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashHeart07 View Post
    You can mix and match all you want You can even name them whatever you want. They could be worshipping us. Temple of Dresden, sanctuary of Ritter-floh
    It is possible for you to faction lock buildings. So in this case where you want to mix and match, you could create these temples and just lock them for this particular faction.
    Hehe, that's great news indeed. I will definitely do that then, thanks! Having their own temple-chain shoud bring some serious flavour to Cyrene

    I'm also definitely going to conceptualize a special regional capital for the Kyrene (like the 1.2 Alexandria or Rome).

    One more question - is it possible to add a custom trade resource to DeI? Say, if I wanted to add Silphium plant just for Kyrene? And if it is, can its value be changed?

  7. #7

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Yes, there are various tables governing resources and its easy to add. THere should be a tutorial in the workshop about it I think?

    ----> Follow us: -- Patreon -- Steam -- Forums -- Youtube -- Facebook <----

  8. #8
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,476

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Instead of Zeus-Ammon its Zeus-Dresden, Ares-KAM, aso.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  9. #9

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    Yes, there are various tables governing resources and its easy to add. THere should be a tutorial in the workshop about it I think?
    Most excellent, thanks. This should be fun I assume I could also modify the population classes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Instead of Zeus-Ammon its Zeus-Dresden, Ares-KAM, aso.
    That should be a submod!


    After some more reading:

    - Looks like Libyans were mostly subjects in Cyrene, so they're probably out of the question as a 4th political party. In that case I think it's best to go with: House of Magas, Macedonian Nobility (settlers), Greek Nobility (original colonists) and Egyptian Nobility (due to the status of former Ptolemaic subject).

    - If custom population classes are possible, I'd go with: Eugeneis, Katoikoi, Libyans and Foreigners. I'd really like to have a division between the Macedonians and the Greeks (that'd make the pike phalanx really valuable), but I'd have to forgo the Eugeneis class. Then again, perhaps it could be argued that the Macedonians were the elite in Cyrene?

    - As for the roster, from what I've read, Cyrene should definitely have chariots. They were popular amongst Libyans and quickly rediscovered by the Greeks. I've found several mentions of them being used during the Ptolemaic times.

    - The Machimoi are probably out of the question, as it seems that the Cyrenean army was composed mainly of Greeks/Macedonians and Libyans. So that'd make an interesting mix of Carthaginian and Hellenistic roster.

    I'll continue researching the topic, submod's still in the pre-production until then

  10. #10
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,476

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Well were there even any Machimoi in Cyrene?
    I must confess my ignorance of the topic, aside from the odd mention during a university lecture.

    But my own guess would be there was no real differentiation between greeks and macedonians.
    It was pretty much the same in all hellenic kingdoms, the demand far outstretched the supply.

    There was a differentiation between military settlers and the general hellenic population,
    though how much that would translate into a separate Cyrenean state I wouldn'tt know.

    Were there ptolemaic cleruchs in that part of their kingdom?
    Again, I do not know.

    I could imagine a certain drift towards mercenary soldiers, as happened in late Egypt.
    With their limited hellenic population, Id say it would have happened way sooner.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  11. #11
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    apartment 6
    Posts
    2,949

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Here is a quick sketch for faction symbol.
    Used old cyrene's colors and a drawing found on the net.
    Obviously it has to be refined.

    Last edited by Jake Armitage; January 20, 2017 at 10:46 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Well were there even any Machimoi in Cyrene?
    I must confess my ignorance of the topic, aside from the odd mention during a university lecture.

    But my own guess would be there was no real differentiation between greeks and macedonians.
    It was pretty much the same in all hellenic kingdoms, the demand far outstretched the supply.

    There was a differentiation between military settlers and the general hellenic population,
    though how much that would translate into a separate Cyrenean state I wouldn'tt know.

    Were there ptolemaic cleruchs in that part of their kingdom?
    Again, I do not know.

    I could imagine a certain drift towards mercenary soldiers, as happened in late Egypt.
    With their limited hellenic population, Id say it would have happened way sooner.
    I'm not an expert either, but I'm currently accumulating various sources on the topic. So far I've been able to determine that Egyptians likely weren't present in Cyrene in significant number, thus no Machimoi. From what I've read the army would be a mix of Greek/Macedonians and Libyans. As for the differentation between Greeks and Macedonians - I believe you're right, though I would argue that the much older Greek population would still feel themselves different from the newer Macedonians Settlers. Thus the Greek Nobility and Macedonian Nobility as separate political parties. I'm still wondering about the population classes themselves, do you think that would work:

    1. Macedonians

    2. Greeks

    3. Libyans

    4. Foreigners

    Ideally, I want to represent the fact that, as you mention, it was hard to field large Hellenic armies due to shortage of manpower. There'd be a decent population of Greeks in Cyrene, but probably not that many Macedonians. I also want to limit available pike units for gameplay purposes, making them really valuable (as they should be I reckon!).

    About Ptolemaic cleruchs - that's an interesting question, I'll try to find out if I can. And I definitely agree about the mercenary drift - a heavy Libyan influence in the roster also seems probable.

    This is my first sketch of the Cyrene's roster:

    [Greeks/Macedonians]

    - Rhodian Katoikoi Slingers

    - Cretan Katoikoi Archers

    Comments: Both Rhodos and Knossos have a close proximity to Cyrene. I've found information about a large Rhodian colonist drive as well. I'd probably make them a Thorax reform unit, as well as limit their use to only several per army (if that's possible)

    - Companion Cavalry

    - Cyrenean-Libyan Thorax Swordsmen (Thorax reform unit)

    - Cyrenean Light Hoplites

    - Cyrenean Hoplites

    - Cyrenean Peltasts

    - Cyrenean Archers

    - Cyrenean Slingers

    - Cyrenean Pikemen

    [Libyans]

    - African Elephants (with Libyan drivers)

    - Libyan Cavalry (Parasim Lybim from Carthaginian roster)

    - Libyan Javlinmen (Mitnagsim Lybim from Carthaginian roster)

    - Libyan Thureos Spears (Aantim Lybim from Carthaginian roster, requires Thureos reforms)

    - Libyan Infantry (Dorkim Lybim from Carthaginian roster, requires Thureos reforms)

    - Libyan Hoplites (H'anatim (H'anatim Lybim from Carthaginian roster, though I'm guessing Libyans wouldn't really fight as hoplites for the Greeks, even if they were assimilated)

    - Libyan Skirmisher Cavalry (Parasim Lebiponnim from Carthaginian roster)

    - Libyan Levies (Mishteret Lybim from Carthaginian roster)

    - Libyan War Chariots (Skirmishers, chariots pulled by four horses)


    [General bodyguards]

    - Four horse Chariots

    - Cyrenean Elite Hoplites

    - Companion Cavalry


    Quote Originally Posted by cino View Post
    Here is a quick sketch for faction symbol.
    Used old cyrene's colors and a drawing found on the net.
    Obviously it has to be refined.

    Thanks! That's how I imagine it'd look as well. I'm currently working on it. Trying to make it look as similar to the Rome II's faction symbols as possible

  13. #13

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Looking good man, really excited to play as this faction. If you need any help let me know, I got good photoshop and modding skills (not for total war games though but search "Greece at war mod" on google and you will find the mod I made alone) and some historical information if required.

  14. #14
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,476

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Hmm I like the idea that the older greek nobility woud be at odds with the imported macedonian one, but I wouldnt express it in the population classes.

    Im generally against the portrayal of natives as the third population class with the Seleucids and Ptolemies,
    since it completely ignores the rest of the hellenic population aside from Katoikoi/Kleruchoi

    Id generally go for hellenic factions (including Carthage) having a three tiered Hellenic (or Punic) population, with natives being a part of the foreigner group.
    It may be that natives could become an integrated part of the Hellenic population, and slowly merged with them over the centuries.
    But AFAIK the fact that they could become part of it makes it clear that they were considered outsiders, that there was a distinct Hellenic society on top of the Native one.

    The Natives were opressed, but that was considered normal for them.
    Persian nobles may have served in the Seleucid army, but in their land their people were as opressed as it was in those controlled by Katoikiai.
    Civil rights and freedom were not really on the agenda of autocratic regimes after all.

    So after this little rant, Id go for something like:
    Eugenis as in Nobles
    Kleruchoi as in military personel (for now as a stand in)
    Politai as in free citizens
    Xenoi as the native population and foreigners in general
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  15. #15

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by greekmen View Post
    Looking good man, really excited to play as this faction. If you need any help let me know, I got good photoshop and modding skills (not for total war games though but search "Greece at war mod" on google and you will find the mod I made alone) and some historical information if required.
    Thanks! Maybe you could try some unique shield symbols?

    For example, here are the current Cyrene Pikemen:



    Some ideas:

    1. Zeus-Ammon

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    2. Apollo Karneios

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    3. Trident and a Lion


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    "The trident shields are for Tritonis, the God of the salt lake Triton in Libya; the Lion shields are for the Nymph Kyrene who was wrestling a lion."

    4.Quadriga Chariot
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    5.Nymph Kyrene
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    These are just for Greeks, I imagine the Libyans would use a mixture of those and their own.
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; January 22, 2017 at 06:10 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Hmm I like the idea that the older greek nobility woud be at odds with the imported macedonian one, but I wouldnt express it in the population classes.

    Im generally against the portrayal of natives as the third population class with the Seleucids and Ptolemies,
    since it completely ignores the rest of the hellenic population aside from Katoikoi/Kleruchoi

    Id generally go for hellenic factions (including Carthage) having a three tiered Hellenic (or Punic) population, with natives being a part of the foreigner group.
    It may be that natives could become an integrated part of the Hellenic population, and slowly merged with them over the centuries.
    But AFAIK the fact that they could become part of it makes it clear that they were considered outsiders, that there was a distinct Hellenic society on top of the Native one.

    The Natives were opressed, but that was considered normal for them.
    Persian nobles may have served in the Seleucid army, but in their land their people were as opressed as it was in those controlled by Katoikiai.
    Civil rights and freedom were not really on the agenda of autocratic regimes after all.

    So after this little rant, Id go for something like:
    Eugenis as in Nobles
    Kleruchoi as in military personel (for now as a stand in)
    Politai as in free citizens
    Xenoi as the native population and foreigners in general

    Eugenis as in Nobles
    Kleruchoi as in military personel (for now as a stand in)
    Politai as in free citizens
    Xenoi as the native population and foreigners in general[/QUOTE]

    I agree with you, making Libyans their own class is probably a bit of an oversimplification. I really like your population class idea:

    Eugenis as in Nobles
    Kleruchoi as in military personel (for now as a stand in)
    Politai as in free citizens
    Xenoi as the native population and foreigners in general

    But it could be problematic gameplay wise - if we assume that the Libyans are in the last group (Xenoi), then i'd be really easy to maintain armies, due to general abundance of foreigner class. We could posit that the Libyans who would become soldiers would considered as the Politai, the free citizens, which would solve the problem - and from what I've read, at least some Libyans were inducted as settlers and were free people (and thus assimiliated).

    The problem with that is that it'd be weird to recruit Libyan units (which I outlined in the roster sketch) from the class which included not only Libyans. And then there's the other problem - I would generally assume that the soldiers would be drawn from the subjects, not necessarily free people.

    What do you think?

  17. #17
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,476

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Actually thats exactly my point, there should be an abundance of these guys when compared to the general Hellenic population.
    But IMO it would be more accurate if we looked at population classes as more of a fuzzy legal definition than actual ancestry.

    From what Ive gathered, thats how most Hellenic states looked at it.
    F.e. Antiochus I actually was half Persian.

    So in the game Id portray this by having early cheap Libyan units recruited from the foreigner pool.
    The same with Native units all around Hellenic factions.
    Id actually make all of them AoR units to further portray how the Hellenic rulers simply used what was available.

    Then if you plan on having Cyrene go the same route as Egypt, Id have the reformed medium/higher quality units simply be part of the Politai/Kleruchoi populations.
    AFAIK thats how the Ptolemies dealt with native troops after they had subdued the great native rebellion.
    IIRC I read this in Army and Society in Ptolemaic Egypt by Christelle Fischer-Bovet
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  18. #18

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Actually thats exactly my point, there should be an abundance of these guys when compared to the general Hellenic population.
    But IMO it would be more accurate if we looked at population classes as more of a fuzzy legal definition than actual ancestry.

    From what Ive gathered, thats how most Hellenic states looked at it.
    F.e. Antiochus I actually was half Persian.

    So in the game Id portray this by having early cheap Libyan units recruited from the foreigner pool.
    The same with Native units all around Hellenic factions.
    Id actually make all of them AoR units to further portray how the Hellenic rulers simply used what was available.

    Then if you plan on having Cyrene go the same route as Egypt, Id have the reformed medium/higher quality units simply be part of the Politai/Kleruchoi populations.
    AFAIK thats how the Ptolemies dealt with native troops after they had subdued the great native rebellion.
    IIRC I read this in Army and Society in Ptolemaic Egypt by Christelle Fischer-Bovet
    Yeah. I mean we are limited to 4 population classes, so some compromises have to be made. Thinking about it, let's use the roster as the example:


    - African Elephants (with Libyan drivers) [Kleruchoi]

    - Libyan Cavalry (Parasim Lybim from Carthaginian roster) [Xenoi]

    - Libyan Javlinmen (Mitnagsim Lybim from Carthaginian roster) [Xenoi]

    - Libyan Thureos Spears (Aantim Lybim from Carthaginian roster, requires Thureos reforms) [Politai]

    - Libyan Infantry (Dorkim Lybim from Carthaginian roster, requires Thureos reforms) [Politai]

    - Libyan Hoplites (H'anatim (H'anatim Lybim from Carthaginian roster, though I'm guessing Libyans wouldn't really fight as hoplites for the Greeks, even if they were assimilated) [Politai]

    - Libyan Skirmisher Cavalry (Parasim Lebiponnim from Carthaginian roster) [Xenoi]

    - Libyan Levies (Mishteret Lybim from Carthaginian roster) [Xenoi]

    - Libyan War Chariots (Skirmishers, chariots pulled by four horses) [Xenoi]

    That way, the more professional units are from the Politoi class, while cheap, more readily available levies are from the numerous Xenoi class.

  19. #19
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Austria
    Posts
    1,476

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    That would be a great way to portray them in the current build, though KAMs currently working on completely overhauling the hellenic rosters.
    So maybe hed appreciate it if you discussed your findings with him and sent what you already have as concrete submod to him.

    Id imagine it would take make his work easier
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  20. #20

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    A short post about custom look for the Cyrenean hoplites/pikemen.

    For starters, an excellent model from Roma Surrectum II mod:




    Then we have equipment - due to the hot climate linothorax armour seems like the best choice.

    Some colour variants for linothorax would be nice:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    And maybe some pikemen could look like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 







    As for the helmets, due to the Spartan influence (Cyrene's considered Sparta's grand daughter colony) and hot climate, Pilos helmets seem like a good choice:



    Another decent choice would be the Phrygian and Thracian helmets:




Page 1 of 22 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •