Rate RoM Dale units

[Maetharin]

Yes. I'm using the same definition of professional. And once more, historically professional soldiers were not provided arms and armor by the state, even when that state was his own and was paying him as a soldier. In the vast majority of cases, that is. Not until the early modern armies were uniforms provided by the state, and even then often arms and armor would not be provided (the polish hussars come to mind, who had to provide their own equiptment, despite being the most elite soldier of the Commonwealth).

But more in line with our analogous time period, If you wanted to be payed as a man at arms, you needed to provide your own harness and your own horse such that you could function like a man at arms. It was not provided by the state.

Even the Romans did not posses a strict, state funded military uniform. It wouldn't be uncommon to see various styles of armor within a single legion.

And I agree, surely the Dwarves would provide arms. But it's entirely reasonable to say that the individual soldiers would have commissioned their own armor and arms to their own sense of needed protection and sense of aesthetics. The state of Dale wouldn't necessarily buy it. If history is any guide to this discussion, the soldiers would buy their own.

@Caligula: Makes sense. This is only my opinion on aesthetics and what to me makes most sense in a pseudo-medieval setting. I'd happily offer my services if I had the talent, which I don't, and the time, which I don't. Keeping up with public desire must be a nightmare with such a small crew.

Thanks for bringing up the romans, they´re somewhat of a specialty of mine.
The legions were supplied by state owned factories after Augustus had reformed the military.
These of course made equipment according to the nature of their legion´s frontier and had their own styles.
To keep logistics as simple and therefore as cheap as possible, supplies and amours were acquired locally.

The variety in equipment IMO was a result of the constant redeployment of the legions and the simple need to reuse any viable equipment.
There´s this one new recruit who´s bigger than all his peers? Equip him with long chainmail from storage.
This helmet doesn't´t really fit? Try out the older model we have in storage.

If we go by history, the wealthier the state is, the easier it can provide arms and armour to its citizen soldiers.
F.e. Antigonid Macedon supplied its Phalangitai certainly with Sarissai and possibly Aspides,
if we assume that any new king issued shields with his name on them as Sekunda suggests.

Most of the time, states simply weren't wealthy enough to pay for their soldier´s equipment,
heck even feeding them was often troublesome.

The Dalian Spear-/Swordsmen are representative of Dale´s soldiers when it´s at its peak.
Vastly rich through trade, and some of the best smiths of ME right at their doorstep.

The Dwarves of Erebor surely were able to mass produce armour,
which makes it way more economical if the state provides equipment through bulk purchases.

I´m applying the same principles to them as to the Romans,
but with simply one supplier and no vastly different frontiers.

[AlexiosThe1st]

Just to be clear, we're agreeing that there was a fair amount of variety in the armor one might see in any given Roman legion? Even still, armor was often handed down to younger generations or soldiers would buy armor from other soldiers. Point being, even the extremely wealthy Romans did not have a strict uniform provided by the state. The state ensured the soldiers were properly armed. But it wasn't a uniform uniform. Still, I'm sure you know far more of the Roman military machine than I do, so I happily concede that point.

"The wealthier the state..." Yes. Exactly. And only hugely wealthy states were able to do this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot think of a single state military in the West that possessed a formal uniform from the migration era to the end of the renaissance. This is not something that even concerned most militaries, even had they the wealth. That 1000 years is also the 1000 years that we're concerned with as a model for LotR.

In my opinion, comparing Rome to Dale is folly. And as an expert on Rome, you should understand why. There are very very few parallels between the two. A far more apt comparison would be the Venetians. Who were obscenely wealthy from trade, had strong allies, and were plagued by an enemy to the east (Ottomans).

[Maestro1]

The comparison between Dale and Venice is way further off than that between Rome and Dale. As an expert of both, I can say that there are many similarities in Caesar's Rome and Dale under Brand. Venice is not an empire and thrived on diplomacy, monopolising and bribery. Dale on the other hand has nothing of that.

The best comparison still is that between Dale and France of Louis Quatorze. He introduced a standing army and generalised and centralised the military structure of the French. There was general training and general equipment funded by the state. The only reason why soldiers in one battalion have different pieces of equipment is due to the fact that they had to bring their own. Ergo: their army was decentralised.

[AlexiosThe1st]

I completely disagree. Dale was not an Empire and it most certainly did rely upon diplomacy. They had very strong ties with both the elves of Mirkwood and the Dwarves of Erebor. It was also a reasonably small Kingdom whose economy was not almost entirely based on military expansion like Rome's. From what I have read of Dale, it was a trade state. Which Rome was most decidedly not. Did trade occur? Of course; but this was not Rome's primary means of economic growth. When the expansion stopped, so did economic growth.

But as an expert on neither, what are the similarities between Dale and Rome?

[AlexiosThe1st]

The comparison between Dale and Venice is way further off than that between Rome and Dale. As an expert of both, I can say that there are many similarities in Caesar's Rome and Dale under Brand. Venice is not an empire and thrived on diplomacy, monopolising and bribery. Dale on the other hand has nothing of that.

The best comparison still is that between Dale and France of Louis Quatorze. He introduced a standing army and generalised and centralised the military structure of the French. There was general training and general equipment funded by the state. The only reason why soldiers in one battalion have different pieces of equipment is due to the fact that they had to bring their own. Ergo: their army was decentralised.

There are plenty of examples of kingdoms reforming their respective military such that the state has a standing army. Why would France under Louis XIV be Dale's model? He strikes me as a warhawk, or at least much of his time was spent waging wars not simply in defense. That seems like an odd model for Dale.

But even if France is Dale's model that only supports the contention that a uniform would be out of place.

Ultimately, coming up with a historical model for Dale is completely off topic. It remains that BOTH a standardized uniform AND no uniform would be entirely reasonable for Dale's professional soldiers. Personally, since LotR is set in a medieval-esque setting, I'd lean towards the soldiers providing their own equipment. But far more importantly, I think most people think variety is more aesthetically pleasing. I know you have a small team. And I know it's a lot of work. If it never happens, that's fine. From working on 1212 AD and with that team, I just believe that diversity makes a unit look much better.

[Maetharin]

I´m not really comparing Rome and Dale as states, but rather their militaries.
We don´t know their military even was professional.
But the devs are taking these guys directly from the film, in which there is uniformity.
That´s where my assumption of them being a professional force rather then a militia comes from.
The assumption of them being a professional force came first, I just wanted to flesh out the logic behind it by drawing from the example of the Romans.


But to be clear, at least in their propaganda, the Roman Legionary of Trajan´s age was rather uniformly equipped.
That this doesn't conform with the historical reality is pretty obvious, but they came closer to it during that time than any other state before modernity.
It simply was impossible and impractical to have every factory produce the same equipment, especially when you consider the vast numbers of soldiers needed to protect all the different and unique frontiers of the Roman empire.

Dale on the other hand would neither need to protect its western nor its southern border, simply because this land was either barren ( or under the influence of the Mirkwood elves.
It´s only sudden that Sauron arose again in Mordor, he was "kept under watch" by Gondor, and Dol Guldur was also "dormant".
They only needed to protect their eastern borders, since that was where both their wealth and their enemies came from.

Also, the Dalian Spear-/Swordsmen AFAIK don´t represent the whole Dalean army, they are its core.
Much like the legionary or more fittingly the Gondorian infantry, they were supported by other troops.

So Dale neither had the numbers nor the need to equip nigh to 300000 men like the Romans had to.
When we compare them to the numbers Gondor was able to rally at Minas Tirith, a max of about 5000 such core troops would be realistic.

And when we apply the logic of one single supplier, who´s capable of producing en masse, to this small number of men, it all falls into place.

[Russian Nomad 12]

Can you add in a unit armed with a 2 handed sword like the "Dale Swordmasters" in the Third Age mod. Also in Third Age, there is a mounted and dismounted version of the "Earls" unit. Do you plan to add them in because they were a very good unit and looked very unique. I feel like the Captain should be armed with a sword and Shield instead of the Cleaver. Overall, the faction looks Amazing and I am very impressed. Keep up the great work!

[Mr.Jox]

Every time I see "make it as in Third Age" (that feels to me like "you shouldn't have your own opinion and vision on the unit, just go and copy most popular version").

[jim501]

Dont take it personally Mr.Jox, TATW is one of the most popular mods , it is normal that people familiar with it would like to see similar units either because they feel familiar or cool. Neiher me nor anyone who makes suggestions either relating to third age or not has intent to hinder the team`s creativity, they are merely suggestions we find neat , not entitled demands.

[Maetharin]

jup, it´s why I´ve started doing my own submods,
because through these i can make small changes into the direction of how I think it ought to be.

The devs of any mod should IMO always explicitly take those decision they are comfortable with,
and if my vision of the mod and theirs clash, why should they cave in into my demands when it´s their mod?

All I can do is state my opinion, take the wins I can get, and accept if the devs decide otherwise.
I´m happy they even brought the mod to life and feel even happier if they allow me to publish my submods.

IMO a healthy submod community just helps spreading the mod even further and keeps it alive longer.
Therefore I can really only encourage people to start modding themselves if they are not satisfied with what the devs publish.

[alphasquad]

I´m not really comparing Rome and Dale as states, but rather their militaries.
We don´t know their military even was professional.
But the devs are taking these guys directly from the film, in which there is uniformity.
That´s where my assumption of them being a professional force rather then a militia comes from.
The assumption of them being a professional force came first, I just wanted to flesh out the logic behind it by drawing from the example of the Romans.


But to be clear, at least in their propaganda, the Roman Legionary of Trajan´s age was rather uniformly equipped.
That this doesn't conform with the historical reality is pretty obvious, but they came closer to it during that time than any other state before modernity.
It simply was impossible and impractical to have every factory produce the same equipment, especially when you consider the vast numbers of soldiers needed to protect all the different and unique frontiers of the Roman empire.

Dale on the other hand would neither need to protect its western nor its southern border, simply because this land was either barren ( or under the influence of the Mirkwood elves.
It´s only sudden that Sauron arose again in Mordor, he was "kept under watch" by Gondor, and Dol Guldur was also "dormant".
They only needed to protect their eastern borders, since that was where both their wealth and their enemies came from.

Also, the Dalian Spear-/Swordsmen AFAIK don´t represent the whole Dalean army, they are its core.
Much like the legionary or more fittingly the Gondorian infantry, they were supported by other troops.

So Dale neither had the numbers nor the need to equip nigh to 300000 men like the Romans had to.
When we compare them to the numbers Gondor was able to rally at Minas Tirith, a max of about 5000 such core troops would be realistic.

And when we apply the logic of one single supplier, who´s capable of producing en masse, to this small number of men, it all falls into place.

What do you mean by 300000 men? Rome had a maximum of 130000 legionaries in all his borders during his golden age. Maybe you're counting auxiliries too?

[Maetharin]

yup, I counted the whole roman army, because I wanted to contrast the numbers difference.
It was impossible to uniformly equip something as big and constantly evolving as the roman army.

But if one imperial factory were able to focus on one single legion,
as the dwarves of Erebor would be on the forces of Dale, they´d easily be able to do so.

[AlexiosThe1st]

I´m not really comparing Rome and Dale as states, but rather their militaries.
We don´t know their military even was professional.
But the devs are taking these guys directly from the film, in which there is uniformity.
That´s where my assumption of them being a professional force rather then a militia comes from.
The assumption of them being a professional force came first, I just wanted to flesh out the logic behind it by drawing from the example of the Romans.


But to be clear, at least in their propaganda, the Roman Legionary of Trajan´s age was rather uniformly equipped.
That this doesn't conform with the historical reality is pretty obvious, but they came closer to it during that time than any other state before modernity.
It simply was impossible and impractical to have every factory produce the same equipment, especially when you consider the vast numbers of soldiers needed to protect all the different and unique frontiers of the Roman empire.

Dale on the other hand would neither need to protect its western nor its southern border, simply because this land was either barren ( or under the influence of the Mirkwood elves.
It´s only sudden that Sauron arose again in Mordor, he was "kept under watch" by Gondor, and Dol Guldur was also "dormant".
They only needed to protect their eastern borders, since that was where both their wealth and their enemies came from.

Also, the Dalian Spear-/Swordsmen AFAIK don´t represent the whole Dalean army, they are its core.
Much like the legionary or more fittingly the Gondorian infantry, they were supported by other troops.

So Dale neither had the numbers nor the need to equip nigh to 300000 men like the Romans had to.
When we compare them to the numbers Gondor was able to rally at Minas Tirith, a max of about 5000 such core troops would be realistic.

And when we apply the logic of one single supplier, who´s capable of producing en masse, to this small number of men, it all falls into place.

I don't see many parallels between their militaries either. They had completely different roles encountering different enemies and fighting very different wars. The Roman military was primarily one of conquest. Whereas it seems the Dale military was primarily one of defense of a small kingdom. Regardless, I don't contest any of what you have to say on Rome. Only that I think Rome is a strange comparison to Dale.

"Also, the Dalian Spear-/Swordsmen AFAIK don´t represent the whole Dalean army, they are its core.
Much like the legionary or more fittingly the Gondorian infantry, they were supported by other troops."
None of which I contest. The point I was making is that if we take a French army build, you have a core of professional soldiers supported by various levies. These professionals provided their own arms and armor. They might all go to the same smiths and order similar arms. But they pay for it.

"And when we apply the logic of one single supplier, who´s capable of producing en masse, to this small number of men, it all falls into place."
Once more, I don't disagree with the logic of this. As I've said, both state funded arms and individual funded arms are entirely reasonable. But in my opinion, given the pseudo-time period individual funded arms is more reasonable. You make the argument that there are fewer soldiers to equip, making it easier. This is true, but historically when militaries possessed a smaller core of professionals supported by numerous levies, they were not supplied arms by the state. Only when you have a large professional force, which likely lacks the means of supplying itself (since they can't all be wealthy nobles), do you get uniformity of arms. Why would a state go out of its way to fund arms and armor when the citizens making up the professional core can very well pay for their own arms? It's entirely reasonable, and supported by what we know of the correlating time period, that the wealthier citizens of Dale supplied their own arms.

And since both are reasonable models for Dale, I would argue for more diversity within a unit. I simply think it looks better. I'm not trying to impose my will upon the mod. I'm only making a suggestion that I think will drastically improve the visuals for Dale. The color palette of the Dalian infantry is striking to me.

[AlexiosThe1st]

Gondor's Lebennin Marines are exactly what I'm talking about. I think they have a nearly perfect level of variation within the unit. Maybe a few different helms here and there. But the shields are all fantastic. They're wearing similar armor but it's not all the same. I think that is an exceptionally well done unit.

[Mr.Jox]

jup, it´s why I´ve started doing my own submods,
because through these i can make small changes into the direction of how I think it ought to be.

The devs of any mod should IMO always explicitly take those decision they are comfortable with,
and if my vision of the mod and theirs clash, why should they cave in into my demands when it´s their mod?

All I can do is state my opinion, take the wins I can get, and accept if the devs decide otherwise.
I´m happy they even brought the mod to life and feel even happier if they allow me to publish my submods.

IMO a healthy submod community just helps spreading the mod even further and keeps it alive longer.
Therefore I can really only encourage people to start modding themselves if they are not satisfied with what the devs publish.

Yo nice words! That's how I came up here, I started with one small submod for TATW but wanted to go to the next point.

[HighOnTea]

Yo nice words! That's how I came up here, I started with one small submod for TATW but wanted to go to the next point.

Aha, probably same story for 90% of modders here.
It all began with one suggestion/request...
I suggested the Imperial Splendour team to add one hat to their unit...they chose another one, so I made 10 different hats and 3 mod versions with over 40 units before getting the hat I wanted to look the way I wanted it to look.

[Enpremi]

I feel like I should step in and answer some of the concerns.
When I started working on the Dale the only concepts I could use were images from the Unexpected journey. Sure there's TATW, but I personally didn't like their aesthetic approach towards Dale. It felt too - medieval and real. So I had this amazing opportunity to visually shape a faction to my liking. After BOTFA Weta released bunch of new concepts that helped me define the Dalian design. Let me clarify at this point, that our goal is stick to the movies and therefore to WETA's concepts, except for a few individual cases like goat cavalry. I've spent days watching all the behind the scenes footage and browsing through the published artbooks just to understand the designing process behind the gear of Middle-earth. In the movies the armies define a faction. You can look at a soldier and immediately say which realm he serves. Tolkien's world might carry certain aspects of medieval times, but it's fantasy for god's sake. And WETA understood this fact almost flawlessly. All of their armour looks practical and impractical at the same time, because they managed to fuse the realistic aspect with the unrealistic one. That is why you can easily define a faction through its army. And since the many of the units in the Dale roster couldn't be backed up with a premade concept by WETA I decided to took over this role and that's why some it might seem odd. The fact that "state" supplies its soldier with the same piece of armour for ages is a movie fact we decided to follow. There are region specific units and "state" units and then there's the militia.

Concerning the variations, I keep it in mind. We still need to move forward and different shields, helmets and colours are a currently not the primary list of things.

[Teutonic]

The quality of the Dale units is unbelievable, there is no question. Personally, when I've spoken about variation here I meant using assets already made. Not new ones- this would be wrong for too many reasons to list.

So, for example, militia and watchmen equipment can be mixed a little with the Merchant/Shipmen units, and vice-versa. All militia shields are so beautiful!

It can be argued that because Dale regular and elite units have standard-supplied equipment (though they still wouldn't be identical) mixing them up a little is extremely low priority, or no priority at all. Though even here things can be shaken up a little- there are differences between the Cavalry regiment and the infantry so these can be mixed. Also, Merchant/Shipmen assets can be used here as well.

I know that even if no new models are made from scratch, the type of thing I am suggesting still requires work and time and there a lots more stuff to do. I am just trying to think of ways of improving the unit rosters with the least amount of effort.

[AlexiosThe1st]

Teutonic is 100% right. It doesn't need to be any priority at all. The uniformity could just be a design choice. It's only aesthetic taste and if you aesthetically prefer uniformity then do that.

And Teutonic is also right about the existing models. No new assets need be made. Dale already has plenty of great models.

[Maetharin]

Yeah mixing up the already existing Variantmeshes would pretty much be a prefect compromise, especially since the assets are already really good looking.