How to use odrysian units ?

[Blackader]

I complained some times ago about lack of difficulty. Following advices I gave a try to Odrysian kingdom...and indeed, it is challenging.

I feel that their armies are completely ineffective against...well, every factions, except perhaps those with only oriental spearmen. I consider myself as a seasoned TW player, and I win ordinary in 1 to 1 on battlefield, even on 1 to 2 with Romans, but this time I loose several battles against such factions as Triballes.

My current tactic is this : I make a line of thracian warriors (levy spearmen die too quickly and don't inflict any losses), and flank with peltasts, who are throwing javelins from rear and side. With my cavalery, I eliminate archers, and then charge from rear. With any other faction it proved so far to be very effective, but the thracian warriors are dying at an awfull speed (little bit less than levy spearmen but almost not), and when my peltasts are in position my main line is already broken. In fact, it seems quite impossible to do any manoeuver, since thracian warriors cannot hold the line more than one or two minutes. It works sometimes against greek factions, whose units are slow and sensitive to javelins, but against celts, with swords and javleins too, it is often useless.

I tried to build an army with peltasts as infantery, but it is a mess, peltasts are bad at close combat, and if they are skirmishing, they will run around the map, untill they are catched.

I'm surely missing something...so what are your advices to use well odrysian units ?

[Alwyn]

Yes, the Odrysian Kingdom is difficult, indeed!

If you would like a more challenging campaign, then I recommend using a More Aggressive AI mod together with the Guaranteed Major Faction Empires mod. I am enjoying seeing the effects of those mods. But this is the strategy and tactics forum and I should focus on the question which you are asking.

You wrote that you use a line of thracian warriors and use peltasts and cavalry for flank attacks. The problem is that your thracian warriors cannot hold the line for long. Peltasts also struggle to hold the line. Spearmen die too fast and don't inflict losses on the enemy. It sounds like you are wondering how to 'hold the line', when Odrysia lacks units with the good melee statistics and armour which they would need to 'hold the line' successfully.

I can think of a few suggestions. I am a fairly new Rome II player, so others might have better ideas:-

- Use a defensive main line, instead of an offensive one. For sword-based armies like Rome and most Celtic factions, the main line advances and kills the enemy. However, for Greek factions, it seems that the purpose of the main line is defensive. Your spearmen hold the line and fix the enemy in position; your cavalry, skirmishers or flankers destroy the enemy. You could try Greek-style tactics, using a main line with a mix of cheap spearmen and (if they are available and affordable) some mercenary hoplites (or similar units) to strengthen the line. The purpose of this line is not to kill the enemy. The purpose of this line is not even to hold for very long. The purpose of this line is to fix the enemy in position and draw as many of them as possible into attacking the line. Then your skirmishers and cavalry will surround them and destroy them.

- Alternatively, don't use a main line of melee infantry. Bring lots of skirmishers and cavalry, with a few light spearmen among your skirmishers (in case enemy cavalry hit your skirmishers before your cavalry can reach them). When they send cavalry to attack your skirmishers, destroy their cavalry with your horsemen. Make them keep moving towards your skirmishers. Use your cavalry to destroy their skirmishers, if you can do this without your riders getting into a melee with their infantry. After the enemy infantry have chased your skirmishers, the enemy infantry should become tired. At that point, discourage them further by cycle-charging their infantry with your melee cavalry. (Charge, wait a moment for your riders to inflict casualties, then pull your cavalry out and repeat. For maximum effect, charge them from the flanks or rear when their infantry are on the move, chasing your skirmishers).

- Look at Lugotorix's The Black-Hearted Lords of Thrace: An Odrysian Kingdom AAR; he successfully built an Odrysian empire, so his campaign might provide some ideas.

[Blackader]

Yes, it was exactly my question, how to hold the line ? Against Greeks it is not so difficult, because their phalanxes are slow. But Celts are surprisingly very effective, their units are quick, and to harass them with javelins isn't an option, since their own units have javelins too. Cavalery is usually winning the day for me, but at a tremendous cost...

[Alwyn]

You might get ideas from faction focus videos on the Odrysian Kingdom by Heir of Carthage and Decimus Maximus Meridius - although their advice might just confirm what you know, which is that the Odrysian Kingdom's roster simply does not have units which can hold a line for any length of time. You could also watch tournament battles such as this one, in which Decimus Maximus Meridius uses an Odrysian army. I think that Decimus Maximus Meridius' commentaries on how he selects his armies and how to use units on the battlefield are excellent.

I guess you know what the options are: (a) accept that your line will not hold and build your strategy around that (weak centre, strong flanks to surround the enemy), (b) do not form a line (use 'hit and run' guerrilla warfare tactics), (c) use mercenary hoplites (or other mercenaries) to form your line or (d) use a mod which adds units to the Odrysian roster. Lugotorix, whose Black-Hearted Lords of Thrace Odrysian Kingdom AAR I linked to in my previous posts, used Sebidee's Balkan Roster Expansion (which adds 20 units to Odrysia) - or, if you prefer, you can use Sebidee's Unit Roster Overhaul. I'm enjoying an Iceni campaign using Sebidee's Iceni mod, I like the way that his units are based on a mix of legends and history (for example, he adds light skirmisher chariots, which seems realistic - it seems unlikely that Iceni chariots would have been used to 'run down' enemies). Sebidee's units seem to 'go with the grain' of the faction's vanilla roster. For example, he adds archers to the Iceni roster, but they can be recruited in limited numbers, in restricted locations and they are less effective than the archers of factions such as the Nervii and Suebi. In other words, he maintains the idea that factions specialise in different kinds of warfare, to avoid all factions becoming the same as each other.

There might be a fifth option. I noticed that, if you acquire a client state/satrapy, your armies can recruit 'levy' units in regions controlled by your client state. This is like recruiting mercenaries, but their upkeep is much lower. You recruit them by putting your army in a region belonging to your client state and selecting the button which you would normally use to recruit your own units (not the mercenary button). These usually seem to be basic units normally, such as slingers. I wonder if any faction offers decent melee infantry as a client state? (This seems to depend on the military buildings which your client state has). If so, then turning that faction into a client state might be worthwhile for the Odrysian Kingdom. There is a discussion on recruiting levy units from client states here.

[Atlas5515]

You could try staggering your units in a checkerboard, and after the initial contact, retreat your front line behind the rear one and then charge back in to solidify the front, that should absorb the initial shock and buy you more time to manoeuver on the wings. You can also set some light spear infantry out on the wings if you want to speed things up against enemy cavalry, just remember to establish your corners so your spears don't draw enemy infantry over, but even if they do, that's what reserves are for. Alternatively, you could go for vast cavalry superiority, maybe 6 units total with a heavy cav unit if you can on each wing. I would also suggest no more than 2 ranged units to absorb the enemy skirmisher barrage at the beginning, then help on the wings, then turn back to flank the enemy center (they don't have enough time to do any heavy lifting, so you're going to have to run less of them unless you want build a skirmisher army). Don't forget to hold reserves and to replace units under high pressure before they break. If facing the romans, wait out their spear throw in place, or (preferably) charge into them before they have a chance to throw them, because the pila are quite nasty (the key is to charge while the romans are moving--like if they charge you, run at them before they stop to throw).

I won't have a chance to hop on and try it out with these units until later this week =/ but there's also forming an irregular line with strong skirmishers to hit the gaps, which is incredibly costly with weak infantry, which I assume you're trying to avoid.

If you're running out of options though, you could always run a half stack or so of reinforcements in a second army, but it takes a while just waiting for them to enter the field, which is annoying. If you're hurting on money though, pure skirmishers and cavalry are a very long and very micro-intensive way to win.

[Blackader]

I had another battle yesterday with my odrysian army against some Celts (Bastarnae), and I must confess that I lost it, despite being 1 to 1. My thracian warriors were no match for celtic warriors and spear warriors, and my peltasts were caught after few volleys. My cavalery was of little use since the AI kept some spear units garding flanks and rear (smart move, by the way). The thing that ease me a little is that according to what you say I am not entirely at fault, the poor odrysian roster is to blame too. I now wait for Thracian nobles and heavy cavalery, who could give me at least shock troops.

Thank for your thoughts and advices. I really feel that thracian roster need a good mid-game unit, spear, or heavy peltast. Once again, I have no difficulty dealing against greek armies, but Celts are perfect counterpart against vanilla thracian units : they are fast moving, they are throwing javelins, and they are hitting hard. I can't play "hit and run" tactics, which are very effective against slow macedonian pikes : peltasts are soon caught by versatile celtic warriors or spears. Flanking prove to be better but my main line die too quick. According to videos you suggested me, Alwyn, I will perhaps rely on more infantery, so to have some reserves, and less skirmishers, which take too long to have an effect against line of Celts, as Atlas said.