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Thread: [PREVIEW] Seleucids

  1. #1

    Default [PREVIEW] Seleucids

    The current research/preview is based mainly on Bar-Kochva's "The Seleucid Army" and "Judas Maccabaeus" of the same author.
    Side references: Droysen:"Diadochoi" & "Epigonoi" of Alexander from Renos-Herkos-Stantes Apostolides.

    General
    The Seleucid army, as a successor army, has it's base on the armies of Phillip and Alexander. The core Seleucid army was divided into two big divisions, the guard regiment, and the reservists/regulars. The core army filled by military settlers, mainly Greeks and also some Thracians, Medes and Jews. They granted land, in return of military service.
    The core army was supplemented by units from vassal people throughout the kingdom (mainly lights) and also various mercenaries. Bellow you can see a nice table taken from Bar-Kochva's Maccabaeus, concerning the Daphne parade,battle of Raphia and battle of Magnesia, a very good example to see the above divisions and also many more that i will explain bellow:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Guard units were of very high degree of discipline and in constant readiness while "reservists/regulars" called to arms when the empire was at war. In these preview we will mainly present the core Seleucid army, leaving vassals and mercenaries for another.

    Manpower and recruitment
    As we said before, the core Seleucid army consisting from the Guard division and the reservists, filled solely by the various military settlers settled in Asia by Alexander, Seleucus Nicator, Antiochos Soter and others. Nowadays those settlers through the Seleucid empire are used to called "katoikoi" based on a fragment found in Magnesia of Asia minor but nowhere else, despite the largest number of settlers lived in Syria and Babylonia. The recruitment potential of those "katoikies" (military settlements) were approximately 44.000 phalangites, 3.000 semi-heavy inf, and 8.500 heavy cavalry. More specifcally: Syria-essopotamia give about 25.000 phalangites and 3.500 cavalry, eastern provinces(mainly Media and Persis) gave 11.000 phalangites, 3.000 semi-heavy inf and 4.500-5.000 cavalry and Asia Minor(Phrygia, Lydia) 8.000 phalangites and 500 cavalry.
    The guard regiments were recruited by selected military settlers for their youth and physical strength who were trained in the Grand military school of Apameia. After they finished their training they are at king's disposal by following him everywhere. After certain years serving in the Guard, they retired and joined the "reservists" units.
    So the settlers not selected for serving in the Guard and those who retired from it, consists the "reservists/regulars" units.
    The indigenous population who judged capable of joining the army consists the light units supplemented the settler's army, called by the Greeks pantodapoi.
    The population classes for our manpower system for the Seleucids will be the following:
    -Katoikoi Epigonoi (Epigonoi means progeny-successor. They are the younger settlers at the prime of their age)
    -Katoikoi (The military settlers)
    -Pantodapoi Epistratoi (Those are the indigenous people judged capable of serving the army. Epistartoi means "those who called to arms")
    -Pantodapoi (The indigenous population of a region)

    UNITS

    Units of the Royal guard:

    Agema
    Heavy cavalry unit consisted of Medes who enjoyed the status of the military settlers. They numbered 1000 men strong. After the fall of Media to the Parthians, this unit recruited by Thessalian military settlers. This unit acompany the king along with Hetairoi. A very interesting suggestion has been made to explain why a unit of foreign to the dynasty people, consists the king's guard and why 2 royal guards existed (Agema and Hetairoi). The suggestion is (a very convincing one in my opinion) that when Seleucus Nicator first occupy his lost by Antigonus Monopthalmus territories, he didn't have at his disposal a capable number of Macedonian settlers and he forced to rely on the indigenous Medes who expelled in cavalry tradition. After the victory at Ipsus he had big number of Macedonians under his service and he could finally made a royal guard unit consisted from Macedonians (Hetairoi), but he couldn't just dispand or lower their rank to those who served him so well for many time. So the Seleucid reached to have 2 royal guard cavalry units. (recruited from Pantodapoi Epistratoi pool)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hetairoi
    The Macedonian heavy cavalry royal guard of the Seleucid king which also count 1000 men strong (see above on the Agema description about why two king's guard units existed). (Recruited from Katoikoi Epigonoi pool)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Argyraspides (Phalangite outfit)The guard phalanx unit of the Seleucids. Recruited from military settlers at the prime of their age. Argyraspides, like the hypaspists of Alexander and the peltasts of the Antigonids, was a "hybrid", multipurpose unit able to fight in phalanx formation (mainly in pitched battles) and as crack assault units with sword and javelins or shorter spears when circumstanses require that(like seiges or battles in mountainous terrain). They number 10000 men strong. Polybius in some cases named them "peltasts" (like the forced march of the 10000 petlasts in Baktria) because he occassionaly uses Antigonid terminology on the Seleucid army (the equal unit to Argyraspides were Peltasts in the Antigonid Macedon). (Recruited from Katoikoi Epigonoi pool).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Argyraspides (Peltast outfit)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hypaspistae (phalangite outfit)
    Although the term Hypaspists in the period after Alexander doesn't refer to any fighting unit, but mainly to king's friends or high ranked officials (like in Antigonid Macedon), Bar Kochva suggests the the Hypaspists in the Seleucid army were the crack battalion of the Argyraspides consisted the 1/5 of them aka 2000 men. (Recruited from Katoikoi Epigonoi pool).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Hypaspistae (Heavy hoplite outfit)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Units of the Reserve:

    Phalanx
    This unit is the main battle unit of the Seleucid empire. They were heavy infantry of pikemen who their "official" name was "Phalanx" or "Macedonians". Macedonians not because of their ethnicity (because they consisted by many other Greeks too) but because their armament and their way of fighting. They were military settlers obligued to fight for the king in war and they form the backbone of the Seleucid army. Later on at the Daphne parade the name Chalkaspides appears for them by Polybious, but we will discuss for them later on the reform units. (Also some suggested that a broken fragment from Polybious refers to another contigent of the phalanx the Chrysaspidai but this remains doubtfull). (Recruited from Katoikoi pool).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thrakes
    In Persis, a number of 3000 military settlers were of Thrakian origin and they retain their armament, equipment and way of fighting, as semi-heavy infantry, with Thrakian pelta shields (later thyreos shields) javelins and falx/sica. (Recruited from Katoikoi pool).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thrakes Hippakontistai
    Again recruited from Thrakian katoikoi from Persis, fighting as light cavalry with a thrusting spear, javelins and thyreos shield. (Recruited from Katoikoi pool)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Xystophoroi
    As the name suggests, they carry the xyston cavalry spear, no shields. Recruited from Greek settlers. (Recruited from Katoikoi pool)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thessaloi Xystophoroi
    Thessalian settlers, due to their heritage, form some of the best cavalry contigens. Eventually they form the hole Agema when the upper satrapies fell into Parthians. They recruited from the "Larissa Ad Orontes" in Syria a Thessalian colony from the early hellenistic period. (Recruited from Katoikoi pool)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Medians
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Reformed Units

    Hetairoi

    After Antiochus the Great "Anabasis" where he encountered the combat style of Parthian and Baktrian cataphracts, he made extensive cavalry reforms imitating that style. Here the Hetairoi after the cataphract reforms.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Agema
    The Agema already fought in cataphract-like style although after the Antiocus III reforms they re-armed with the best armour available.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Kataphractoi
    After Anntiocus III reforms a big proportion of the Seleucid cavalry re-armed in cataphract style. Although their charges were irresistible and their amour value very high, because of their weight they lack in speed and maneuverability as long as they are more vulnerable to flanking attacks.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    (Western Provinces)(Eastern Provinces)
    Lonchophoroi
    After the Celtic invasion in Hellas and the return of Pyrrhus from Italy, shielded cavalry make its appearence in the Hellenistic world. Some kingdoms adopt almost entirely the cavalry shield while others (like Seleucids) seems to be less affected.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Thorakitae Argyraspides
    At the Daphne parade 5000 men armed in thorakitae style are reported by Polybious, who called them as "armed in the roman fashion". Because at Daphne only 5000 of the Argyraspides were present (out of 10000), many historians made the speculation that half of the Argyraspides regiment were armed and trained on the thorakitai style.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Chalkaspides
    The phalanx of Antiochus Epiphanes was composed of chalkaspides, in addition to the argyraspides (Polyb. 30.25.5:
    I Mace. 6.39). They are reported at the Daphne procession counting 5000 men.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Credits
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Demokritos for his ACR version for VV.
    TWHellas team and Koultouras for letting as use assets of theirs great mod(Koultouras thanks a lot my friend)
    The Hellenika team for various helmets, shield models and thoraxes.
    Lord Buio's mods for various beautiful models.
    KLA's beautiful work,
    Haegemonia team and especially Horus Lupercal (melcor)
    Little Legionairs Armies Mod, "Hats off my friend!!"
    Rome at War 2 team, for models of helmets and the new sarissa.
    Solitudo for various models (He is also a VV team member although i felt the need to thank him here..)
    Zaskar for his permission to use his work.
    Last edited by [email protected]; July 03, 2017 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    I want to encourage the threads visitors to spent some time reading the descriptions and the details in [email protected]'s post (OP) because all these details will play an important role to gameplay design. Almost all historic data displayed are simulated in one way or another in gameplay with many inovative mechanisms that we hope will give Hellenic factions (and the others as well) a unique gameplay experience

  3. #3

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Looking very impressive.

  4. #4
    Linke's Avatar Hazarapatish
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    How nice to see such good looking phalanxes
    Last edited by Linke; January 08, 2017 at 10:00 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Finally some units to see!! lovely roster guys. Very well presented and informative. Just a question: the pikes shield is a new model? or is it the vanila aspis shield for hoplites?

    Happy New Year for everyone

  6. #6
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    really nice looking pikes there, especially those shields
    IŽd love to know how you did that, did you enlarge the pike shield,
    reduce an aspis or used something completely different?

    BTW how did you get the pikes to look this awesome without clipping?
    Looks nearly the same as my submod
    Did you also use the plike_ready_line_1_v1.meta for all the PIKE_FRONT_READY metadata slots?
    I at first contemplated also only using the corresponding anim file,
    but I decided against it because it made them totally synced

    Anyways
    Best regards

    Edit: BTW I just noticed you have the 4th row also with pikes down, can those guys also attack?
    Last edited by Maetharin; January 10, 2017 at 05:57 PM.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

    Marcus Porcius Cato Censorius

    "I concur!"

    ​Me

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Max had done extensive work both on Vm's and animation.
    For your question about 4th row yes they have their pikes down but they do not attack. There is no such animation for them. In any case it is not noticeable during battle
    Last edited by [email protected]; January 11, 2017 at 04:30 AM.

  8. #8
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Great job, everyone, and Max espcially- of course!


    Interested in the history of ancient Athens? Have a look here!

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...0#post14553020

  9. #9
    Aguirre's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Awesome! soo beautiful work

  10. #10
    Hoplite of Ilis's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    So glad to see the old comrades again That's reason enough to log in. Very nice work - as always. No silver shield legionaires?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Really good job guys!!Well done.To know that Maximus and phalangitis is here i sure this mod is gonna be awesome!!(Well from the Hellenic Factions,cause i know thats what you are mainly if not only deal with)

  12. #12

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ampraciotis View Post
    Really good job guys!!Well done.To know that Maximus and phalangitis is here i sure this mod is gonna be awesome!!(Well from the Hellenic Factions,cause i know thats what you are mainly if not only deal with)
    That's exactly my thoughts!
    Glad to see the Hellenika boys continue work on our ancestors!

    Just one question guys, have you think of using the IA map?
    Last edited by Thyra13; January 25, 2017 at 01:52 PM.

  13. #13
    Magnar's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thyra13 View Post
    Just one question guys, have you think of using the IA map?
    you'll have to wait for our scenario preview for that information.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    I suspect good news..
    Cant wait to play this mod

  15. #15

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Thanks for the vote on confidence guys.. You know we will all do our best

  16. #16

    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    just wow! just finished reading Bar-Kochva's "The Seleucid Army" myself and then to see this... just wow

  17. #17

  18. #18
    airborne guy's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Hellenistic Previews (Seleucids)

    Looks great guys! Keep it up!

  19. #19
    Nelduin's Avatar a.k.a ALG & echuu
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] Seleucids

    I translated the Seleucids Preview in French and posted it here: http://www.mundusbellicus.fr/534561-...des-seleucides.

    Cheers,

  20. #20

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