[Feedback] Questions, Critiques and Requests

[Dardo21]

I seem to remember from my last campaign, that the bonus does get applied throughout the province, but I can't comment on it stacking or not.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

My impression was that these experience points for the dignitaries apply in the region, but then I might have been wrong about it. Perhaps it is the way DC0 mentioned above, that the one from the provincial capital takes precedence. Or pehaps it's just simply the highest one that counts? I'm quite sure, though, that they don't stack up.

[Felius]

Rorarii + Disciplined Formation are ridiculously useful. Not only they make good fodder to eat the enemy ammo (large shields + high numbers), but they hold the line really damn well. Plus since they are proletarii, not plebs, they are much easier to replenish. Throwing some 2 or 3 of them on the front to take the blunt of the damage while you get your hastati and principes flanking on the sides works much better than I'd otherwise expect.

[Maetharin]

Rorarii + Disciplined Formation are ridiculously useful. Not only they make good fodder to eat the enemy ammo (large shields + high numbers), but they hold the line really damn well. Plus since they are proletarii, not plebs, they are much easier to replenish. Throwing some 2 or 3 of them on the front to take the blunt of the damage while you get your hastati and principes flanking on the sides works much better than I'd otherwise expect.

Is this supposed to be how it works? Because AFAIK that´s not how it actually worked.
Would the Romans even field Rorarii unless in a last ditch effort?

[Felius]

Is this supposed to be how it works? Because AFAIK that´s not how it actually worked.
Would the Romans even field Rorarii unless in a last ditch effort?

Presumably no. I think it's a combination of factors: First, they are a pretty solid defensive spear unit for its cost. 8 melee defense (before any bonuses) is hardly bad, and since they have big shields they resist missile fire quite well. Add disciplined formation, and their already strong defense goes even higher. Their main weaknesses are the low armor and piss poor attack. Low armor gets compensated by their high defense and shields. They also have the numbers to eat the battle attrition, at 300 men per unit.

And any losses? Easily replaced even in newer frontier settlements, as they are proletarii, that 3rd class pops.

At the same time, the unit that historically did have the function of being the first line? Hastati, which I almost never recruit after I stop being piss poor. One point less in defense, but that's not to bad at 7 base, plus disciplined formation (or fulcrum if the enemy is cav heavy) means they can hold the line reasonably well. Attack is not really what you care in this scenario, but their 7 base is useful too. Big shields, and marginally more armor at 35 armor instead of 25, means they also won't be immediately dying to arrow fire.

But not only they only have 200 men per unit, giving lower staying power as the enemy slowly damages them, and more importantly, they are plebs, which are far less numerous and take longer to appear in large numbers, meaning they are much more annoying to replace and far easier to actually risk somewhat depleting the stock.

With this Rorarii makes much better first line troops. And because principes are just outright better units than hastati in all ways but stamina (and even the only marginally) and monetary cost (which shouldn't be a problem for Rome after the early game), while also being plebs, hastati already significantly inferior in their historical role become simply superfluous for any other role.

[Maetharin]

Presumably no. I think it's a combination of factors: First, they are a pretty solid defensive spear unit for its cost. 8 melee defense (before any bonuses) is hardly bad, and since they have big shields they resist missile fire quite well. Add disciplined formation, and their already strong defense goes even higher. Their main weaknesses are the low armor and piss poor attack. Low armor gets compensated by their high defense and shields. They also have the numbers to eat the battle attrition, at 300 men per unit.

And any losses? Easily replaced even in newer frontier settlements, as they are proletarii, that 3rd class pops.

At the same time, the unit that historically did have the function of being the first line? Hastati, which I almost never recruit after I stop being piss poor. One point less in defense, but that's not to bad at 7 base, plus disciplined formation (or fulcrum if the enemy is cav heavy) means they can hold the line reasonably well. Attack is not really what you care in this scenario, but their 7 base is useful too. Big shields, and marginally more armor at 35 armor instead of 25, means they also won't be immediately dying to arrow fire.

But not only they only have 200 men per unit, giving lower staying power as the enemy slowly damages them, and more importantly, they are plebs, which are far less numerous and take longer to appear in large numbers, meaning they are much more annoying to replace and far easier to actually risk somewhat depleting the stock.

With this Rorarii makes much better first line troops. And because principes are just outright better units than hastati in all ways but stamina (and even the only marginally) and monetary cost (which shouldn't be a problem for Rome after the early game), while also being plebs, hastati already significantly inferior in their historical role become simply superfluous for any other role.

I definitely agree with that, maybe these 300 men strong levy units should get a morale rework?
Or maybe the moral impact of prolonged combat be increased?

[ur-Lord Tedric]

Would the Romans even field Rorarii unless in a last ditch effort?

I think the better question is - whether the Romans ever fielded Rorarii - ever?

I've never seen any evidence that the 'army structure' in Livy I,43 ever seemed to have been actually used.....

There is, however, subjective evidence that the Camillan/Early units we currently have in the Mod disappeared way before 278BC...

[Maetharin]

I think the better question is - whether the Romans ever fielded Rorarii - ever?

I've never seen any evidence that the 'army structure' in Livy I,43 ever seemed to have been actually used.....

There is, however, subjective evidence that the Camillan/Early units we currently have in the Mod disappeared way before 278BC...

Well, the defining difference between the early and mid republican units in DeI is the change from spear to sword, no matter what kind of label you put on it.
I wouldn´t know when exactly this happened. Was it during their conflicts with the Samnites? Was it before or after Pyrrhus?

Also, IMO there should be no citizen units, they´re pretty redundant if you consider that you´d be given any kind of weapon, a sling, a bow, a spear, anything but just a knife or dagger.
Rorarii, Euzonoi, etc. ought to be the lowest tier of melee garrisons IMO.

Edit: Another reason I could see for them never fielding Rorarii would be that it´s expensive enough to keep the Hastati, Principes and Triarii in the field.
If one went to war, one fielded as many men as it was possible to keep fed.

[Felius]

I definitely agree with that, maybe these 300 men strong levy units should get a morale rework?
Or maybe the moral impact of prolonged combat be increased?

Make morale too low and they become too useless. All they need is to eat some of the enemy ammo and hold the line long enough for your actual good units to flank the enemy and start killing. I'd go instead with removing disciplined formation, although that also has the risk of removing what makes the Rorarii unqiue compared to generic 300 men low tier spear units.

Personally, I'd go for some minor reworking of the manpower system, in some combination to the following: Hastati to proletarii, even if that's not strictly historical. Uncouple strict unit sizes from manpower requirements, that is, make some units take more or less than their basic numbers, and make a difference in the prices of hastati and principes (or if hastati is moved to tier 3 pops, have them take more than 1 pop per soldier, to keep them harder to field than previous tier 3 pop units). Further divide the pop tiers, to have some more historically reason to have hastati and principes in different pop tiers, possibly fuse the "richer" part of tier 3 with the poorer parts tier 2, to avoid making the numbers too low.

But then again, I suppose I'm taking this more from a gameplay perspective than a historical perspective, and a personal take on gameplay balance on that. I guess I might try my hand at submodding at some point, likely after this campaign (Marian reforms are just around the corner now and they will make the whole point moot anyway) to create something to suit my tastes.

[ur-Lord Tedric]

.................
Edit: Another reason I could see for them never fielding Rorarii would be that it´s expensive enough to keep the Hastati, Principes and Triarii in the field.
If one went to war, one fielded as many men as it was possible to keep fed.

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't a true statement - and, I suspect, is certainly one encouraged by gaming experience rather than historical knowledge.

At the time period we are talking, Rome could field a maximum of 10 legions (just Roman ones). However, most years each Consul took only his pair with him (a 10-stack to us).

Certainly, as far as I am aware, no battle where hastati/principes, triarii, velites & cavalry are mentioned (and the triplex acies, etc) - no mention is ever made of 'rorarii'. In fact, apart from the passage in I,43, I don't believe they ever appear.

[Maetharin]

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't a true statement - and, I suspect, is certainly one encouraged by gaming experience rather than historical knowledge.

At the time period we are talking, Rome could field a maximum of 10 legions (just Roman ones). However, most years each Consul took only his pair with him (a 10-stack to us).

Certainly, as far as I am aware, no battle where hastati/principes, triarii, velites & cavalry are mentioned (and the triplex acies, etc) - no mention is ever made of 'rorarii'. In fact, apart from the passage in I,43, I don't believe they ever appear.

I think you misunderstood me. Or maybe I should have added “with the available means“
Is it not gameplay reasons that Hastati cost more than Rorarii in upkeep?
A capite censi Rorarius ate the same bread as a adsiduus Hastatus after all.
Or was the stipendium different for Hastati, Principes or Triarii?

To rephrase, I suspect that, if Rorarii existed at all,
they weren’t fielded because it wasn‘t cost effective enough to do so.
Since they were not adsidui, their equipment would also have to have been provided for them.

[Felius]

I think you misunderstood me. Or maybe I should have added “with the available means“
Is it not gameplay reasons that Hastati cost more than Rorarii in upkeep?
A capite censi Rorarius ate the same bread as a adsiduus Hastatus after all.
Or was the stipendium different for Hastati, Principes or Triarii?

To rephrase, I suspect that, if Rorarii existed at all,
they weren’t fielded because it wasn‘t cost effective enough to do so.
Since they were not adsidui, their equipment would also have to have been provided for them.

In game that doesn't really apply because after the early bits of the game, money is cheap, as is 3rd and 4th class pops. What's expensive is 1st and, to a lesser degree, 2nd class pops, at least if you don't want to start getting economic penalties that will take forever to go away (because it's percentile pop growth after the base few hundred).

[MrTimbe68]

Hi,

Just out of curiosity, how does exactly supply shift work in DeI 1.2. I know that it's somewhat different from 1.1 but the basics sould be the same. Now, correct me if I'm wrong but this is how I understand it:

1. If region produces surplus supplies (the supply cap is full) then these supplies are divided

2. The supplies are divided to OWN neighboring regions with this formula [supply surplus/ number of neighbor regions)] and then this amounth of supplies is divided to neighbor regions. To be exact, no supply is wasted if theres still room for it in neighbor regions

3. If in enemy territory AND supply line goes there AND it is connected to your army in this particular enemy region. Then this enemy region is considered supplywise as "neigboring region" and it gets this supply shift amount with the formula introduced before


I may be totally wrong here because I base my perception on this matter solely to the supply script, these mechanics are very hard to figure out just by playing the game because given that supply calculation is pretty precise, the math just doesn't seem always to match, not least because of this supply shift feature. Please comment

[Dresden]

I honestly don't remember, Litharion designed the system and I would have to go check out the exact code works to know the specifics.

[KennyTheKlever]

Speaking of, there's a slight defect in the supply system compared to when I first started playing the mod. When a fleet goes to dock now, there is an immediate transition of state to "fleet ready to take off", rather than "fleet resupplying" as it used to be.
This means you can't depend on the supply state to know when a fleet actually is ready to take off, because the system now says it regardless of whether they are about to starve or well supplied.

Is Litharion still around to make these minor fixes to his system?

[MrTimbe68]

Speaking of, there's a slight defect in the supply system compared to when I first started playing the mod. When a fleet goes to dock now, there is an immediate transition of state to "fleet ready to take off", rather than "fleet resupplying" as it used to be.
This means you can't depend on the supply state to know when a fleet actually is ready to take off, because the system now says it regardless of whether they are about to starve or well supplied.

Is Litharion still around to make these minor fixes to his system?

Hi Kenny, you are right

There was this June 12 fix when more than 1000 redundant lines were reworked in supply_system.lua I've managed to salvage this from 1.1 DeI and implemented it to 1.2 DeI version

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

--Timbe Litharion old code for DeI--

-- resupply function on character enters garrision
local function SupplyFleetTransportEntersPort(context)
  local army = context:character():cqi()
  local turns_at_sea = context:character():turns_at_sea()
    if context:character():has_military_force() == true
      and (char_is_general_with_navy(context:character())) 
      and context:character():has_garrison_residence() == true
     then   
        if turns_at_sea >= 4
          then LogSupply("SupplyFleetTransportEntersPort","Naval resupply effect bundles for: "..army)
            if context:character():faction():culture() == "rom_Barbarian" then 
              scripting.game_interface:apply_effect_bundle_to_characters_force("Naval_Resupply_2", army,1);
            else scripting.game_interface:apply_effect_bundle_to_characters_force("CIV_Naval_Resupply_2", army,1);
               return; 
            end;
        elseif turns_at_sea < 4
         then LogSupply("SupplyFleetTransportEntersPort","Naval resupply effect bundles for: "..army)
            if context:character():faction():culture() == "rom_Barbarian" then 
                scripting.game_interface:apply_effect_bundle_to_characters_force("Naval_Resupply", army,1)
            else scripting.game_interface:apply_effect_bundle_to_characters_force("CIV_Naval_Resupply", army,1);
              return;
            end;
        end;
    end;
end;

-- fleet finished resupplying after a turn in port
local function Fleet_Ready_To_Take_off(context)
    if context:character():has_military_force() == true
        and (char_is_general_with_navy(context:character())) 
        and context:character():military_force():unit_list():num_items() >= 1
        and context:character():has_garrison_residence() == true   
then
local army = context:character():cqi()
Log("\t Remove naval effect bundles for: "..army)
 RemoveBundle(army, naval_effect_bundles)
 Log("\t add Navy_in_port"..army)
     if context:character():faction():culture() == "rom_Barbarian" then 
        scripting.game_interface:apply_effect_bundle_to_characters_force("Navy_in_port", army,-1)
     else scripting.game_interface:apply_effect_bundle_to_characters_force("CIV_Navy_in_port", army,-1)
     return
        end
    end
end

local function SupplyFleetTransportLeavesPort(context)
  local army = context:character():cqi();
    if context:character():has_military_force() == true
      and (char_is_general_with_navy(context:character())) 
      and context:character():has_garrison_residence() == false 
     then 
      scripting.game_interface:remove_effect_bundle_from_characters_force("Naval_Resupply", army);
      scripting.game_interface:remove_effect_bundle_from_characters_force("Naval_Resupply_2", army);
      scripting.game_interface:remove_effect_bundle_from_characters_force("CIV_Naval_Resupply_2", army);
      scripting.game_interface:remove_effect_bundle_from_characters_force("CIV_Naval_Resupply", army);
      scripting.game_interface:remove_effect_bundle_from_characters_force("Navy_in_port", army);
      scripting.game_interface:remove_effect_bundle_from_characters_force("CIV_Navy_in_port", army);
    end;
end;

--Timbe Litharion old code for DeI--

Maybe Dresden can add it back to the right spot. This code part is owned by Litharion but I've tweaked it a little so don't hate me for it

[Dresden]

Ships take 1 turn to resupply if I remember.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

They do, Dresden, but Kenny is right saying that there is some UI bug here since it reads in the fleet's tooltip 'fleet ready to take off' as soon as it sails into port and prior to the fleet's actual resupplying.

[GyJIeBeP]

Mod uses its water, blood and dust textures? maybe some other texture uses? I didn't see any dust, water is vanilla, why not add water and dust?
Camera mod in battle?
Rome II: Terrain HD, Water

[Dago Red]

Dust is lacking, you can subscribe or download to several mods that solve this. Search graphic mods here and you'll find them.

Regarding previous topic, (fleet bug) there used to be a tool-tip reminder that popped up when you were 2 turns out from running out of supply. This was nice, and often sufficient enough time to head to a port. I don't get these at all anymore -- intended or bug?