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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Voivodate of Wallachia

  1. #121
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    While i definetly agree that the topic is very muddy there is evidence of 'blakumen' north of the danube in the XIth century too first mention being 1050. And there is literally zero sources on any sort of mass migration. Seeing as the romans controĺled these lands south of the danube in this period there should be at least a sporadic mention.

  2. #122
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Well in 1166 the Byzantines prepared a surprise attack with two armies, one from the south of Danube like the Hungarians were used to and another one attacking from Tauro-Scythia or Halych and having the Vlachs as allies, attacking the Hungarians with the aid of the Vlachs and with military access through their lands. They don't say that they were helped by the Vlachs who came there from south of the Danube but the ones who were there since they came from Italy and further most they do not call them subjects of the Hungarians, Kievans nor Bulgarians and neither do they call them "our vassals". This is why I suggest the Duchy of Fogaras (Terra Alaut) ruled by Bezerenbam, the forefather of Basarab (Bazaraad). While Transalpina ruled by Miseslav and followed by Seneslav was occupied by Tartats untill 1292, Fogaras was free and the place from where Negru Voda with Catholic, Orthodox and Saxon followers took over Transalpina from across the mountains from the Mongol/Tartar horde. Lytuoy was defeated in a very bloody and costly series of battles by his former allies, the Hungarians but his people were not subjugated but ransomed Barbath, the brother of Lytuoy and negociated a peace and vassalage. Still Barbath lost influence in the area and the honorific title of Ban of Severin held by his brother and most likely the new Ban subdued him as later the Ban is mentioned as a contester of Basarab I.
    Last edited by Visarion; May 04, 2017 at 01:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    I am no scholar in Balkan historiography, but here is some that I had read prior to the original discussion (p. 28) :

    From Cumans and Tatars (http://www.academia.edu/5037485/I._V...Cambridge_2005), which I found an online version of. There's a long section on the founding (re-birth) of Bulgaria and Vlakhs in that period which details the source material on the subject.
    The book you are quoting was written by one, István Vásáry. I cannot comment much on his education or historical studies, for all I know he is a man of considerable knowledge and talent. However, he is also Hungarian. Mind you, a Hungarian writing on the history of Vlachs is like a Russian trying to write the history of Ukraine. Beginning during the 19th century (during a period of intense Magyarization policies in the Austro-Hungarian Empire), it became popular for Hungarian academics to not only claim that the Huns were their ancestors, but that the Romanians/Vlachs were not native to the lands north of the Danube and had in fact, migrated northwards from Albania.

    The irony of this is that the earliest Hungarian chronicle, the Gesta Hungarorum, mentions that Transylvania was inhabited by "local Vlachs and Slavs" when they first conquered the region.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Needless to say, I'd love some actual academic work which suggests anything that has been brought up in this thread and the past one (on Wallachia), because this looks a lot more like the typical 'they're suppressing our history/they're stealing our history/they're making up history' factionalism you see in (Balkan) historical arguments. I even checked the burning tire fire of a thread on the forums on the origins of Vlachs and there seems to be little (to no) solid evidence prior to the 13th and 14th century.
    It does sort of irk me that whenever a Westerner (Hungarians or Germans) argues something about Eastern Europe, it is accepted as academic without any nationalistic overtones (despite the territorial claims their peoples may have/had in the region), simply because it appears in a published book and that (Germans in particular) they are seen as a more 'familiar' source. If someone who represents the interests of "Balkans peoples" argues something, it is seen as whiny "they're suppressing our history" Balkans nationalism. It fails to analyze factors such as literacy or socio-economic status in the territory among the people being discussed. Romanian historiographic tradition is far younger than Hungarian, therefore Hungarian theories (nationalistic or not) concerning the region tend to get the benefit of being accepted as academic. What comes off as worse is that champions of the "immigrationist" theory (largely Hungarians) like to argue that if Vlachs indeed lived north of the river then "why didn't they write any books?"/"show me something academic to prove otherwise?!" knowing very well that Romanians were hardly literate before the founding of the Moldovan and Wallachian principalities during the 15th century. When they did began writing their own chronicles during the 17th century, they did not mention anything about immigrating into the region. Meanwhile in Transylvania, Vlachs under Hungarian rule were not given any political or economic rights and were essentially excluded from 'settled' society unless they converted to Catholicism and essentially "became Hungarian." Noticing a pattern here....?

    In any regard, while I am certain that Vlachs lived in the region and constituted an ethnic majority, I find the idea for a 13th century Vlach faction to be extremely porous at best. In fact, seeing the ridiculous level that this thread has devolved to, I consider myself on the side of those arguing that there shouldn't be a Vlach faction in this mod.
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  4. #124
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    They were not literate but many poems were transmited orally and in many cases when a poem transmited from generation to generation, local legends were searched they were proved to be based on real facts.

  5. #125

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    It does sort of irk me that whenever a Westerner (Hungarians or Germans) argues something about Eastern Europe, it is accepted as academic without any nationalistic overtones (despite the territorial claims their peoples may have/had in the region), simply because it appears in a published book and that (Germans in particular) they are seen as a more 'familiar' source. If someone who represents the interests of "Balkans peoples" argues something, it is seen as whiny "they're suppressing our history" Balkans nationalism. It fails to analyze factors such as literacy or socio-economic status in the territory among the people being discussed. Romanian historiographic tradition is far younger than Hungarian, therefore Hungarian theories (nationalistic or not) concerning the region tend to get the benefit of being accepted as academic. What comes off as worse is that champions of the "immigrationist" theory (largely Hungarians) like to argue that if Vlachs indeed lived north of the river then "why didn't they write any books?"/"show me something academic to prove otherwise?!" knowing very well that Romanians were hardly literate before the founding of the Moldovan and Wallachian principalities during the 15th century. When they did began writing their own chronicles during the 17th century, they did not mention anything about immigrating into the region. Meanwhile in Transylvania, Vlachs under Hungarian rule were not given any political or economic rights and were essentially excluded from 'settled' society unless they converted to Catholicism and essentially "became Hungarian." Noticing a pattern here....?
    I'm not going to argue the merits of various national scholarship levels, but this is not simply a Balkan problem. I read the same thing from a scholar in Lithuania who criticized his colleagues for their 'factional' style of presenting history. I don't believe it is something that is a net negative, because every single country has gone through the process of building up their historiographic base and developing criticism to it, it's a necessary development. That said, we are generally rigorous in terms of historical documentation supporting both elements on the campaign level and with regards to building up units and their equipment, only resorting to projecting backwards through time when absolutely necessary. I can't say at any point that I have thought that the Vlach presence North of the Danube was ever something that required a faction in 1212, when simply having an emergent faction (Wallachia) and regional units (inspired by Wallachian history) was quite sufficient, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    In any regard, while I am certain that Vlachs lived in the region and constituted an ethnic majority, I find the idea for a 13th century Vlach faction to be extremely porous at best. In fact, seeing the ridiculous level that this thread has devolved to, I consider myself on the side of those arguing that there shouldn't be a Vlach faction in this mod.
    At this point, I do consider that because of the excellent work done, there is no real point in simply moving the faction back to emergents. Since people can't seem to really agree on a faction (and a name) that would adequately represent the Vlachs without being needlessly vague, I'm simply going to say that it may as well be the 'Voivodeship of Wallachia' and just deal with the hit to historical integrity.
    Last edited by zsimmortal; May 05, 2017 at 05:53 AM.

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    The book you are quoting was written by one, István Vásáry. I cannot comment much on his education or historical studies, for all I know he is a man of considerable knowledge and talent. However, he is also Hungarian. Mind you, a Hungarian writing on the history of Vlachs is like a Russian trying to write the history of Ukraine. Beginning during the 19th century (during a period of intense Magyarization policies in the Austro-Hungarian Empire), it became popular for Hungarian academics to not only claim that the Huns were their ancestors, but that the Romanians/Vlachs were not native to the lands north of the Danube and had in fact, migrated northwards from Albania.

    The irony of this is that the earliest Hungarian chronicle, the Gesta Hungarorum, mentions that Transylvania was inhabited by "local Vlachs and Slavs" when they first conquered the region.



    It does sort of irk me that whenever a Westerner (Hungarians or Germans) argues something about Eastern Europe, it is accepted as academic without any nationalistic overtones (despite the territorial claims their peoples may have/had in the region), simply because it appears in a published book and that (Germans in particular) they are seen as a more 'familiar' source. If someone who represents the interests of "Balkans peoples" argues something, it is seen as whiny "they're suppressing our history" Balkans nationalism. It fails to analyze factors such as literacy or socio-economic status in the territory among the people being discussed. Romanian historiographic tradition is far younger than Hungarian, therefore Hungarian theories (nationalistic or not) concerning the region tend to get the benefit of being accepted as academic. What comes off as worse is that champions of the "immigrationist" theory (largely Hungarians) like to argue that if Vlachs indeed lived north of the river then "why didn't they write any books?"/"show me something academic to prove otherwise?!" knowing very well that Romanians were hardly literate before the founding of the Moldovan and Wallachian principalities during the 15th century. When they did began writing their own chronicles during the 17th century, they did not mention anything about immigrating into the region. Meanwhile in Transylvania, Vlachs under Hungarian rule were not given any political or economic rights and were essentially excluded from 'settled' society unless they converted to Catholicism and essentially "became Hungarian." Noticing a pattern here....?

    In any regard, while I am certain that Vlachs lived in the region and constituted an ethnic majority, I find the idea for a 13th century Vlach faction to be extremely porous at best. In fact, seeing the ridiculous level that this thread has devolved to, I consider myself on the side of those arguing that there shouldn't be a Vlach faction in this mod.



    Darious,I agree with you from academic stand point,but the real problems here with the Vlachs are others.I can tell you how it was reached the decision the Vlachs to be at the start of the Campaign map at turn 1 and where the problem was created.


    If Someone dont know the real problem is Campaign AI for multible factions in Eastern Europe,Because who holds the Vlach regions Makes or Brakes the Campaign for multible factions in the East to act just like the Western and Eastern Roman Empires in Vannila Attila with no balancing. Some will be having Easy Campaigns vs the Campaign AI,others more harder campaigns than WRE/ERE with less regions(both player and AI) at the start.The most Broken are the Cumans when trying to fight at 4-5 wars in the first 10+ turns with regions no way of defending any of the core regions,because they dont have any - all of their Regions are border regions,Bordering 15 Factions as of Right now,and they were hated by most neighbours in the east.And As we all know how the Campaign AI in Attila loves to focus/prioritize only the player's faction like a lazer guided rocket this is a Huge Problem for some Factions(not only the Cumans) .And on top of that the Tatars/Mongols will got the respawning Army stacks just like the Huns in Attila's Grand campaign. A harder legendary Campaign than the WRE campaign with the Cumans isnt a good Design - its the opposite - a really bad design from Balancing reasons.

    So where are the Vlachs in all this:

    At the start Wallachia was a region under the direct rule of the Second Bulgarian Empire(Moldavian region is still given to the Cumans ) and after the decision to fragment the Latin Empire from holding 5 regions to having 3 regions and 2 Vassal factions I proposed doing the Same for the Second Bulgarian Empire's Lands north of the Danube for Campaign Balancing Pourposes against the Hungary's and the Latin empire's CAI and Helping the Bulgarian and Cuman CAI a bit more - Moldavia and Wallachia.

    So why fragmenting of a Faction is better in the long term? Fast example:Why the fragmented Sassanids CAI with its vassals in Attila 95% beat the Eastern Roman empire CAI in the Middle east in the Attila Grand Campaign? Because by fragmenting a faction into Overlord and vassals there is more money per each faction,More max armies per imperium level ect.When you combine their forces/money budgets against an Unitarian Faction like the Eastern Roman Empire - This is why the romans loose. And there is another Reason - If one Faction is Too big it falls apart really fast when attacked by smaler factions - of the biggest problem for Attila's CAI after the Lazer Guided CAI,focused defeating the player's faction.A problem also pronounced in well in Rome 2 more or less with Factions like Rome and the Selucids.


    Bulgaria was having 4 Regions at the time and I proposed Bulgaria to have core 3 regions and 2 vassals - Making the Moldavian and Wallahian emergent factions be at the start of the Campaign and be vassals to the Bulgarian Empire ,because of a Compromise Decision the Vlachs to be represented (for the Romanian players, who together with the Turkish fans were asking their nations berepresented in Medieval kingdoms 1212ad the loudest) both as part of the Bulgarian Empire and be factions of its own at Turn 1,but unplayable in the Campaign,but playable in the Custom/Multiplayer battles.From a Historical stand point the Second Bulgarian Empire until the Mongol/Tartar Hordes came in the 1240s always held them by form a Political vassalage the Vlachs and the Cumans in Moldavia and Wallachia and the Title of the Bulgarian Tzar was ''Tzar of the Bulgarians and Vlachs'' with the later addition of ''and Greeks''.The ruling Asen dynasty in the Second Bulgarian Empire even to the present day is debatable were they Bulgarians,Vlachs or Cumans in their origin so thats another Plus for maiking the Vlachs part of the Bulgarian Faction in the form of a vassals.After the Arival of the Mongol/Tartar Hordes the Hungarians,Bulgarians and the Tatars were competing eachother for that control over the Vlach lands and weakened themselfs and the Vlachs became slowly step by step Independant in the late 14th century with the Arrival of the Ottoman Turks in the Balkans. And by looking at the early unit rosters of the Bulgarians and the Vlachs the Cumans are represented in them well and there isnt a problem with the Question" Where were the Cumans in Moldavia and Wallachia in all of this?"

    So... By taking the Moldavian region from the Cuman Faction ,the Campaign AI and the player dont have to deal with and the Balkan Factions and the Hungarians to the West and Focus on the Fighting the Mongol/Tatar Hordes to the east ,the Georgians to the south,The Rus to the North and the only more or less stable in Diplomacy with Volga Bulgaria.Also the Cumans will be Bordering not 15 Factions as of Right now,but only 10 - something that will be still the Hardest Campaign in Medieval Kinfdoms 1212ad,but more manageable and more fun overall against the already lazer guided focused CAI on waging the War against the player. Some people will say them "Wait what about the Relations between the Hungarians,Vlachs,Bulgarians and the Cumans at the start of the campaign?" A simple non-agresion pact between them with the Cumans can do the Trick,without trading with Moldavia on top of that.And of top of that the Cuman faction already got the unit'''Moldavian Warriors'' in its unit roster to represent their control over Moldavia

    The other Big problem with the Cuman-Kipchack Khanate as a faction,that is represented in the mod by the name Cuman Khanate as a centralised Faction,but in fact it was nothing like that all.Im mather of Fact it was one of the most disunited realms in Europe before the arival of the Mongols. I have proposed also in the past to Fragment the Cumans also of having at the start 3 regions:Bilgorod,Tana and Sharukan and their other 3 regions of the Cumans in the east be given to the Kipchacks(unplayable faction on the campaign) and making them from emergant to be a starting faction in the campaign with the regions of Kyzul Qala,Saqsin and Derbent and making the Cumans and the Kipchacks Defencive allies represeenting the Cuman-Kipchak confederation as much as possible. And with this Move The Cuman Faction will be still be Bordering with 7 Factions. Another Plus of this aproach presesenting the Cumans is it will give time for the player will be giving them some time before the Mongols come and declare war on their Defencive allies - the Kipchacks.Will he go try to help them with the Mongos right Away or build his forses and buy some time before the Mongols declare war on the Cumans.

    And Finnaly the Campaign AI for all factions in Eastern Europe will be balanced for both each CAI faction and each faction the player choses to play as.

    As for Hungary if the Mod team wants to represent all of the Transylvanian etnic groups and dont want to give the Hungarian another 15 units in its already huge unit roster they can also make the emergant Transylvanian faction be also at the start of the Campaign as vassal to the Hungarians. In its roster Transylvanian faction can have Saxon,Cuman,Teutonic order(this way the biggest critism for the Teutonic order of being too early in the Baltic region in 1212ad will be fixed,without compromising their holdings in the Baltics right now)units and some Vlach units also,but dominantly their unit roster will be represented by the Hungarian units.No new units will have to be created.It will need only need a mixture of the already created units from the Hungarian,Cuman,Saxon,Teutonic order and Vlach units and all Transylvanian etnic groups will be represented in a balanced way for evrybody. At the end Hungary will be having 4 core regions with 2 Vassal states:Croatia with 2 regions and Transylvania with one.

    As For the names of the Moldavian, Wallachian and Transylvanian factions I have been proposing always the names:
    ''Voivodeships of Moldavia''
    ''Voivodeships of Wallachia''
    ''Voivodeships of Transylvania''

    Older Version of the Starting Campaign Map
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The last update on the Starting campaign map.Over a year Ago.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Ok that was my proposals 2 years ago about the Eastern Europe. So what went Wrong? At the time jan_boruta was making those campaign maps.Close before he left the mod team in his last update of the maps (judging at looking at his lack of activity over the last year+,I may be wrong) he only took the idea of adding the Wallachian Faction into the starting campaign map and this didnt fixed the core problems with the CAI for all factions in Eastern Europe at all after he Fragmented the Latin Empire.So this is why we are in this place debating why the Vlachs this ,vlachs that... over and over again.

    Also on the Campaign maps there are problems with some of the regions in the Iberia,2 of the Italian factions and I dont know if they will be addressed:
    1)Pisa was controling both Corsica and Sardinia in 1212ad
    2)Bolongna region being part of the Lombard league
    3)Castile loosing 3 out of 4 of its regions:Kingdom of Leon having 2 northern regions and Badajoz be given to the Almohads,But Castile to have the Biggest starting Army out of all iberian Cristian Factions with Toledo at its Capital and single region.
    4)The Valencia emergant factionto become a Vassal to the Almohads and its early tier 1 units be muslim Almohads units with later Tier 2 and later Tier units to be Cristian(Aragon units maybe) ones due to Muslim Fragmentation from the Almohads at the time and a little help for the Muslims in Spain before the smaller Iberian factions steamroll the Almohads.
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; May 05, 2017 at 06:35 AM.

  7. #127
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    I'm not going to argue the merits of various national scholarship levels, but this is not simply a Balkan problem. I read the same thing from a scholar in Lithuania who criticized his colleagues for their 'factional' style of presenting history. I don't believe it is something that is a net negative, because every single country has gone through the process of building up their historiographic base and developing criticism to it, it's a necessary development. That said, we are generally rigorous in terms of historical documentation supporting both elements on the campaign level and with regards to building up units and their equipment, only resorting to projecting backwards through time when absolutely necessary. I can't say at any point that I have thought that the Vlach presence North of the Danube was ever something that required a faction in 1212, when simply having an emergent faction (Wallachia) and regional units (inspired by Wallachian history) was quite sufficient, imo.
    This type of factionalism occurs in Romanian historiography as well, as many of the 'sacred' works of Romanian history were written during the 19th and early 20th centuries...a time when Romanians felt culturally "close" to France and were very antagonistic towards Imperial Russia. As a result, there was historically more of a focus on Rome's 150 year rule of Dacia than the nearly 1000 years of direct Slavic influence in medieval Wallachia/Moldova in school textbooks. That's just an example.

    As a result, I try to keep an open mind towards these things and if the writer may be particularly slanted towards one point or view or the other. The book from which Wallachian posted excerpts from is very good and really does explain the evolution of the medieval Balkans in an interesting and (in my opinion) - accurate detail.


    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    At this point, I do consider that because of the excellent work done, there is no real point in simply moving the faction back to emergents. Since people can't seem to really agree on a faction (and a name) that would adequately represent the Vlachs without being needlessly vague, I'm simply going to say that it may as well be the 'Voivodeship of Wallachia' and just deal with the hit to historical integrity.
    There are legit arguments both ways but if it were up to me, I would be against the inclusion of Wallachia as a faction in a 13th century mod. However, it is totally the call of you and your team. The use of the name "Wallachia" at this point is a fine generic point, especially considering that it simply refers to "Land of the Vlachs." I don't know the type of units you guys have planned but perhaps they could start off as something 'simple' like Vlach peasant troops, Cuman horse archers, random groups of Saxons, etc a mixture of the peoples who inhabited/marched through the land during the 13th century but in late game perhaps include some kind of reforms that would transform the army with units reflecting the new level of organization of a unified voivodeship with social cohesion.

    FrozenmenSS - I understand your point of view regarding balance and it makes perfect sense to me - as vassals are one of the neat features of this game's engine. Wallachia would make a fine vassal for the Second Bulgarian Empire.

    Something to keep note of - The term "Moldova" did not exist before the 14th century. You would be better off referring to the region as "Voivodeship of the Brodniks" as they (whoever they were - probably a mixed Vlach-Slavic group) ruled the lands between the Prut and Dniestr rivers before the Mongol conquest and were instrumental in helping the Mongols defeat the Rus' at the Battle of the Kalka River.
    Last edited by Darios; May 05, 2017 at 06:34 AM.
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  8. #128
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Well that is exactly what me and Ltd. agreed upon: a tier 1 multiethnic commonwealth of Vlach, Cuman/Pecheneg and Saxon elements, a tier 2 of local lords Boieri and Mosneni troops as well as the start of proffesional retinue elements like the Viteji and Curteni and the paid Burghers of Mircea the Elder and a tier 3 representation of the Order of the Dragon or the triple alliance and Christian gate of Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula, Stephen the Great and Mathias Corvin, alliance established through the diplomatic efforts of John Hunyadi. I mean afterall all the "Carpathian guards" faced the Mongols before reaching Hungary. The system worked. There is no mentioning of the "Vlachs vassals of Bulgarians" facing the horde as was the case of the refference to Menumorut Duke of the Khazars loyal to Constantinople.
    Last edited by Visarion; May 05, 2017 at 07:04 AM.

  9. #129
    FrozenmenSS's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    Something to keep note of - The term "Moldova" did not exist before the 14th century. You would be better off referring to the region as "Voivodeship of the Brodniks" as they (whoever they were - probably a mixed Vlach-Slavic group) ruled the lands between the Prut and Dniestr rivers before the Mongol conquest and were instrumental in helping the Mongols defeat the Rus' at the Battle of the Kalka River.
    That was the Principality of Moldavia in the 14th century right?
    Overall the names ''Voivodeships of Moldavia'' ''Voivodeships of Wallachia'' ''Voivodeships of Transylvania''(given in 1003ad by the Hungarian king) are the best compromise for names for those factions before each of them became Principalities later in the 14th+ century.

    The vlach units are all fine as for unit roster.I got no problems with them. The mixing of already created units in the mod for the Transylvania is the best compromise for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    Well that is exactly what me and Ltd. agreed upon: a tier 1 multiethnic commonwealth of Vlach, Cuman/Pecheneg and Saxon elements, a tier 2 of local lords Boieri and Mosneni troops as well as the start of proffesional retinue elements like the Viteji and Curteni and the paid Burghers of Mircea the Elder and a tier 3 representation of the Order of the Dragon or the triple alliance and Christian gate of Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula, Stephen the Great and Mathias Corvin, alliance established through the diplomatic efforts of John Hunyadi. I mean afterall all the "Carpathian guards" faced the Mongols before reaching Hungary. The system worked. There is no mentioning of the "Vlachs vassals of Bulgarians" facing the horde as was the case of the refference to Menumorut Duke of the Khazars loyal to Constantinople.
    The vlach units are all fine as for unit roster.i got no problems with them.




    The last recorded action of Ivan Asen II is his defeat over the Mongol army of Batu Khan in the course of his retreat from Hungary in 1241.(we can speculate what was the scale of the battle)The battle was fought somewhere near the rivers Prut or Dnester in Modern Moldova when the mongols were crossing the river. This was not a decisive defeat, and a new Mongol invasion in 1242 forced Bulgaria to become tributary to the Golden Horde. By this time, however, Ivan Asen II was already dead, having died on 24 June 1241. So that means until 1241ad Bulgaria had a strong hold over the Moldavian region to be managable to defeat the Golden Horde that far north from the core Bulgarian Lands soth of the Danube
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; May 05, 2017 at 07:16 AM.

  10. #130

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    I don't know the type of units you guys have planned but perhaps they could start off as something 'simple' like Vlach peasant troops, Cuman horse archers, random groups of Saxons, etc a mixture of the peoples who inhabited/marched through the land during the 13th century but in late game perhaps include some kind of reforms that would transform the army with units reflecting the new level of organization of a unified voivodeship with social cohesion.
    The units are on the first page already. As far as I know, these are the only planned Vlach units for now. I don't know what other units might be grafted to the roster though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    a tier 3 representation of the Order of the Dragon or the triple alliance and Christian gate of Vlad "the Impaler" Dracula, Stephen the Great and Mathias Corvin, alliance established through the diplomatic efforts of John Hunyadi.
    I very much doubt it will look like that, especially with regards to the Order of the Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS View Post
    That was the Principality of Moldavia in the 14th century right?
    Overall the names ''Voivodeships of Moldavia'' ''Voivodeships of Wallachia'' ''Voivodeships of Transylvania''(given in 1003ad by the Hungarian king) are the best compromise for names for those factions before each of them became Principalities later in the 14th+ century.
    Only Wallachia is in the starting position. The others are emergents so the names aren't nearly as important. IMO Moldavia and Transylvania are just fine. Wallachia might also end up being more preferable to Voivodeship of Wallachia. I don't know though, it's not my call in the end.
    Last edited by zsimmortal; May 05, 2017 at 07:12 AM.

  11. #131
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    False, other units are planned as well.

  12. #132

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    False, other units are planned as well.
    Not to my knowledge. There might be more units later on (same disclaimer as all the factions), but, as far as I know, these are the only planned Vlach units. Ltd is probably in a better position to answer you, howver, from what he has told me, it appears he has already moved on from this faction.

  13. #133
    FrozenmenSS's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Only Wallachia is in the starting position. The others are emergents so the names aren't nearly as important. IMO Moldavia and Transylvania are just fine. Wallachia might also end up being more preferable to Voivodeship of Wallachia. I don't know though, it's not my call in the end.
    Ok but what about the Cuman Kipchak confederation - the problem with them have to be fixed from a CAI stand point indirectly with choosing what regions they hold,will they be fragmented into 2 , one hole where whe CAI for that faction will be totaly broken due to lack of priority over east - west, north-south direction of moving the Armies. the worst case scenario is the Vannila ERE WRE type of CAI were most of their armies are sailing always in the Mediterranean sea and their empires crumble with no defence. As the cumans fighting the infinite Mongols/tatars in the east and Hungary in the West its a Steamroll even if its only those 2 wars.
    The Moldavian Region is part of the Equation to fix the problem.
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; May 05, 2017 at 07:34 AM.

  14. #134
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    No, I collaborated with him for this faction and we still have some representative units to add including Moldavian AoR as both Mircea the Elder and his grandson were king-makers... Mircea the Elder sustaining Alexander the Good and John Hunyadi giving sanctuary to both Vlad and Stephen and sustaining them, policy continued by his son. Mircea himself will be given back his throne by the Hungarians and the additional tiles of Duke of Fogaras and Ban of Severin and the adiacent territories. Later Vlad will aid Stephen with a 6,000 cavalry contingent sent in Moldavia to pacify the country and end the civil war. Mathias will grant Stephen his inheritance in Maramaros for the efforts done against the Ottomans and Stephen will return the favour to Vlad by giving him 4,000 infantry Voinici guards who in the 15th century adopted the halberd. They will stay with him untill his very end even after the aid sent by Mathias, the Transylvanians and Szeklers will return home but not before pacifying the country. So this was the agreement. A mixed ethnic starting state, a new nation of Wallachians and ultimately a triple alliance participating jointly in Crusades and focusing as guards for the Saxon merchant entity to function properly and trade with the Venetians and even Poles and Lithuanians. Also from time to time Polish and HRE overlordship.
    Last edited by Visarion; May 05, 2017 at 07:48 AM.

  15. #135

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS View Post
    Ok but what about the Cuman Kipchak confederation - the problem with them have to be fixed from a CAI stand point indirectly with choosing what regions they hold,will they be fragmented into 2 , one hole where whe CAI for that faction will be totaly broken due to lack of priority over east - west, north-south direction of moving the Armies. the worst case scenario is the Vannila ERE WRE type of CAI were most of their armies are sailing always in the Mediterranean sea and their empires crumble with no defence. As the cumans fighting the infinite Mongols/tatars in the east and Hungary in the West its a Steamroll even if its only those 2 wars.
    The Moldavian Region is part of the Equation to fix the problem.
    They should be divided along tribal lines, or that's what I understand of the plan. It's not like the Mongols didn't actually steamroll them, so I'm not convinced it's a terrible thing either, plus there's also the Bulgars to keep the Mongols busy.

    There will also be extensive playtesting during Beta phase, so we'll look at how to improve campaign gameplay at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    No, I collaborated with him for this faction and we still have some representative units to add including Moldavian AoR as both Mircea the Elder and his grandson were king-makers... Mircea the Elder sustaining Alexander the Good and John Hunyadi giving sanctuary to bith Vlad and Stephen and sustaining them, policy continued by his son. Later Vlad will aid Stephen with a 6,000 cavalry contingent sent in Moldavia to pacify the country and end the civil war. Mathias will grant Stephen his inheritance in Maramaros for the effirts done against the Ottomans and Stephen will return the favour to Vlad by giving him 4,000 infantry Voinici guards who in the 15th century adopted the halberd. Tgey will stay with him untill his very end even after tge aid sent by Mathias, the Transylvanians and Szeklers will return home but not before pacifying the country. So this was the agreement. A mixed ethnic starting state, a new nation of Wallachians and ultimatelly a triple alliance participating jointly in Crusades and focusing as guards for the Saxon merchant entity to function properly and trade with the Venetians and even Poles and Lithuanians. Also from time to time Polish and HRE overlordship.
    I'm not sure Ltd knows he 'owes' you anything. I told you my understanding of what he told me regarding the work he's doing on the mod. He may have something else planned that I am completely unaware of, but just because you want something for 'your' faction does not mean we have to do it.
    Last edited by zsimmortal; May 05, 2017 at 07:47 AM.

  16. #136
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Cumania will be fractioned into Black Cumania (Cumans), White Cumania (Kipchaks) and Alania (Caucasian Mountain People) if not Volga Bulgaria as well if I'm not mistaken and possibly Bazaraad Dynasty.

  17. #137
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Wallachia will be basically the "Teutonic Order" of the Hungarians and the HRE elements favourable to the Hungarians and against Bohemia and Bavaria in other words, from the begining to the end, a guard for Hermannstadt and Kronstadt and also Nosnerland, Temeswar, Arad and Transylvania proper together with the Szeklers while Maramaros was a buffer state if Transylvania was breached as was the case in the second Mongolian invasion. The pawns of this strategy were Duchy of Fogaras, Kenazate of Hatzeg, Banate of Severin, County of Temeswar and Kronstadt, territories between realms, deffensive marks, later even Mark of Molvabanya, centres of multiethnic communities where commerce flourished between Vlachs, Cumans and Pechenegs, Jasz, Saxons. Vlachs and Szeklers over the time became the predominant people of the Carpathian passes and protectors of the Hungarians and Saxons and included the Slavic, Khazar, Alan-Jasz and Avar elements that lost identity. Later same happened with the Cumans, Pechenegs and the Oghuz.
    Last edited by Visarion; May 05, 2017 at 08:09 AM.

  18. #138

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Visarion View Post
    Cumania will be fractioned into Black Cumania (Cumans), White Cumania (Kipchaks) and Alania (Caucasian Mountain People) if not Volga Bulgaria as well if I'm not mistaken and possibly Bazaraad Dynasty.
    No, I just said it's along tribal lines. Alania is its own faction and Wallachia is the only Vlach faction.

  19. #139
    FrozenmenSS's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    As I have proposed - the 3 most eastern regions of the Cumans to be given to th Kipchacks and both factions be defencive allies, with the other 3-4 regions(3 if Moldavia be a vsssal to Bulgaria,Cumans or other reason) the Cumans can buy time to develop till when the shi t hits the fan from the east.

  20. #140
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Wallachian Units Preview

    Ltd. said that he will try his best to claim a slot for a Voivodate of Maramaros to become Voivodate of Moldavia if not the Voievodate of Terra Bordini of Ploskanea starting as a Cuman vassal faction to become the Principality of Moldavia. Terra Bordini or Bordinia as names are also options.

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