Area of Recruitment thoughts

[ticcan]

I wanted to see what other people think of this as i am not really a fan.

I can see the logic behind it, in reality (middle earth reality) you wouldnt be able to recruit elite Dwarven units in Bree. However it does seem to make the game less fun. What i enjoy most is building an elite army or two and then going off to fight other empires on a war of conquest.

Elite units seem most commonly to be AOR locked so what happens is...

I build my elite 20 unit army win battle after battle but my army gets slowly less elite and/or smaller. So if i was playing Arnor then by the time i had finished with Orcs/Dunland/Isengard, what started out as an elite army is no longer quite so elite. So when i eventually meet Mordor its not quite the series of epic battles i was hoping for. That seems to take a lot of the fun out of conquests for me.

I know you can edit the desc_buildings file to change this, although i have never learnt how so a link to any guides would be welcome.

Anyone else have this view or thoughts on it in general?

[eugenioso]

I wanted to see what other people think of this as i am not really a fan.

I can see the logic behind it, in reality (middle earth reality) you wouldnt be able to recruit elite Dwarven units in Bree. However it does seem to make the game less fun. What i enjoy most is building an elite army or two and then going off to fight other empires on a war of conquest.

Elite units seem most commonly to be AOR locked so what happens is...

I build my elite 20 unit army win battle after battle but my army gets slowly less elite and/or smaller. So if i was playing Arnor then by the time i had finished with Orcs/Dunland/Isengard, what started out as an elite army is no longer quite so elite. So when i eventually meet Mordor its not quite the series of epic battles i was hoping for. That seems to take a lot of the fun out of conquests for me.

I know you can edit the desc_buildings file to change this, although i have never learnt how so a link to any guides would be welcome.

Anyone else have this view or thoughts on it in general?

This is something that you shouldnt be complaining about. It is completely WAD. The whole point of this is that army recruitment is not just building elite units at random small villages that you turned into bigger locations. It would be like recruiting Dragonslayers at Umbar, a place where, lore wise at least, has not seen a dragon in what must have been a long time, probably never, much less a dwarf. What you are complaining about is that the game does not adapt to your standard of entertainment. If i were playing a ww2 simulator and asked "Why cant i build an army of Tiger tanks in Amiens? I captured it and colonized it, so i should be able to", there would be a lack of comprehension about this.

To be fair ETW does have a recruitment and retraining system that is similar to what you are asking, but that is because there are fundamental differences between one era and the other. In LOTR era you cant just recruit a random dwarf and train him up to the standard of a Dragonslayer without the proper equipment and facilities, as well as a huge period of time. In addition to this, why would a dwarf born and bred in Minas Tirith be trained as a dragonslayer? Armies were not professional back then. Gondor could theoretically do this anywhere with recruitment eventually, or at least be restricted to militias.

Even historically this happened with every army pretty much forever in history. Roman armies were not composed only of romans, they were composed of allies as well as auxiliary forces that fought alongside them. Reinforcements that went to the legions were formed back at Italy from men there, not gaulish legionnaires.

Finally this means that every elite army is an investment that you should take advantage of instead of a permanently, perpetually strong army.

[ticcan]

When you take a settlement it takes quite a long time to change its culture to a high enough % to be able to recruit anything. I don't see why over the in game years it takes to do this it would not be also possible to take a militia unit (i.e. local troops) and retrain them to top up my elite troops. It doesn't take 20 years to train a soldier to be an elite, and is exactly the same as training a local unit in your home province.

Obviously this would only be the case in settlements of the same race at first. But if say you as the Dwarves took and then occupied a settlement for 50 years, you would expect that you would get some migration of dwarves from dwarven areas to your new town which you could then train up to be elite troops.

So its not really breaking reality, the above seems to perfectly fit into reality when you are talking of a game lasting decades of in game years.

[Ngugi]

I would not want it myself, both because of the general logic that if you want a Northern Dúnedain, you go to where the Northern Dúnedain lives, and rarity creating the special worth of a unit beyond it's stats.
Still, it can be argued men should be possible to muster across the realm to where they are needed, especially if at a lower speed, to not upset the game balance to much. And in cases with units as the Dragonslayers, the Dwarves do not live in the Grey Mountains at game start anyhow, so it's a grey scale case (pun not intended). Anyhow, it won't affect my game how someone else plays or edit his own game, so do not really care.


To enable an AoR unit anywhere, edit its entries in export_descr_buildings.txt, found in Third_Age_3/data
There are several approaches. Here're two easier ones:

1) Either make it a unit avilable elsewhere than in it's core provinces, but at a slower rate. Dragonslayers as example. Copy the unit entry (looking like this)

recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.15   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and hidden_resource grey_mountains

and add an additional line under each of the units entries (there are 6 of them, for different levels of barracks in cities and castles, so don't stop after the first, and they often differ from entry to entry, so keep an eye on that). Now it should look like this. Do not forget to decrease the replenishment number and add a not before hidden resource:

recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.15   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and hidden_resource grey_mountains
recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.05   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and not hidden_resource grey_mountains

In this example, the Dragonslayers are avilable every 7th turn (1/0.15 = 6.6) in the Grey Mountains, that have the hidden resource grey_mountains.
While in all other regions, that have not the hidden resource grey_mountains, the unit is avilable every 20th turn (1/0.05 = 20).
You can play with the numbers as you please, naturally.


2) Alternativly, making the Dragonslayers as common as any other unit, I would recommend this approach.
The unit is avilable earlier than other units of equal strength, because it's an AoR. This would become unbalanced if it's made a common unit, ofc. So delete the first "Dragonslayer" entry in city barracks completly (it's teh first Dragonslayer if you start searching form the top) and move on to next building level.
Find a unit of equal worth. In this example, the Iron Guard do fine. Looking like this:

                recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.15   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and hidden_resource grey_mountains and region_religion islam 50
                recruit_pool "Iron Guard"  1   0.12   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource mountains
                recruit_pool "Iron Guard"  1   0.08   1  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource forest or hidden_resource grasland
                recruit_pool "Iron Guard"  1   0.06   1  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource desert

Copy paste the Iron Guard entries, change the unit in question and then delete the Dragonslayers original entry:

                recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.15   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and hidden_resource grey_mountains and region_religion islam 50
                recruit_pool "Iron Guard"  1   0.12   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource mountains
                recruit_pool "Iron Guard"  1   0.08   1  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource forest or hidden_resource grasland
                recruit_pool "Iron Guard"  1   0.06   1  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource desert
                recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.12   2  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource mountains
                recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.08   1  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource forest or hidden_resource grasland
                recruit_pool "Dragonslayers"  1   0.06   1  0  requires factions { moors, }  and region_religion islam 75 and hidden_resource desert

Has to be done multiple times too, naturally (and keep in mind after the city barracks comes the castle barracks, where it 'starts over'). But then the Dragonslayer is as any common unit in the roster.


~~~


Notes: if you play with a submod and not vanilla TATW, get Notepad++ which is a freeware. Just using Notepad can risk crashes.
Also, ALWAYS back up the file before making edits, as it's easy to slip

[ticcan]

Thanks!!

For option 1 I couldn't just remove the "and hidden_resource grey_mountains"?

[Ngugi]

You're welcome.
Yes, but that will be clerarly unbalanced. Recruitment will not be affected by terrain (so you get as many DSlayers in the desert, grassland or forests as in the mountains), so you should fine tune replenishment numbers to a low average, as 0.15 is absurd for an top tier unit avilable everywhere from early barracks.
Arguably 50 islam is also silly low for such an elite unit when not restricted in other ways (a.ka low replenishment), it should reasonably be increased.

And if such limitations are undesired too, perhaps it would just be smoother to use cheat codes and simply spawn yourself new units when you want to? Just saying.

[ticcan]

I could remove it for every faction so anyone could recruit any unit in any settlement to keep it balanced. Or at least for example any settlement in mountains or grassland etc.

I don't even really want it in every settlement, I just don't want to have to either have a less elite army than when I started out my venture or have to march troops halfway across middle earth to resupply my army.

I think I might try it as it is again though and possibly see if I can just try and sort out resupplying with fresh elite troops. Might not be too bad just means I have to sit and wait in settlements for longer.

[Ngugi]

Huge job, but yes, that would make up a balance of it's own.

That's war; bloody, harsh and hope for resupplies ^^

[Macilrille]

I like the EB system of recruitment much better. Roman legions before the Marian Reforms can only be recruited in Italy and after certain demands are met. But there are local units that can be recruited everywhere- and many mercenaries. In Gaul, everybody can build Gallic units of the quality your auxilia Barracks allow, but no Legions and no German or Greek, except in the areas where these peoples had mingled with Gauls, etc., etc. It is really quite nice. And when your legions get attritted, you either merge them or march them back to Italy to replenish.

[alreadyded]

You can just use 'replace all' if you want to do them all in one click. Just replace 'and hidden_resource' with ';and hidden_resource'. The ; makes the game ignore the rest of the line so the rest of the code doesn't need changing or deleting.

Yes the recruitment system in TATW is silly (especially since most regions have forest and grasslands and...), but KK added it for difficulty I think. The easy way to make the game difficult instead of redoing the AI and such. A lot of work went into just getting TATW the way it is so not a whole lot went into things that require even more time. Submods do this though. I completely changed the recruitment in mine and I would think most others at least added more units so it isn't as much of a problem. I never played any others though so don't hold me to that.

[Ngugi]

There are many ways recruitment systems can be set up, and there's a rationale to most of them; always an interesting topic

The terrain/climate system of KK partly is to make it harder, arguably, but I also think it follows the reasoning that different kindreds have their prefered terrain, and that conversion do not by default equal a replaced population while the population to draft from affect recruitment efficiency. There are naturally other ways to go about it, but this is my impression of this system's intent;

As in, if I play Mordor and capture Minas Tirith, I won't really replace the human population with Orcs, but subjegate the humans there. And I can't recruit Orcs as readily there, as it won't move in and live as many Orcs in that grassland region as it does in a mountain region [the White Mountains aside, I know hehe].
Meaning that when to set up an Orc company, it will take longer time to rally soldiers from across the region and far away, than in a mountain region where the pool to draft from is just at hand.

Or if I play Dwarves and reconquer Minas Tirirth form the cluthes of Mordor occupants, and start to convert it, assuming equally that in roleplay perspective the population would still be mostly human as per start, merely subjegated, I won't throw out the inhabitants and replace them with Dwarves, but get them drunk so they learn that the Dwarven way is the good way.
Still, when it's time to recruit a unit, there won't be so many Dwarves here, they're off in the mountains, so it will take me longer time to muster them to the place of recruitment.
Or would it be an arid desert region instead of even a grassland, even fewer Dwarves would like to settle there themselves, so it would take even longer to muster the men to set up a company.

[alreadyded]

It never crossed my mind that Orcs wouldn't fill up Minas Tirith (half empty already after all and up against the side of a mountain range they previously occupied) and enslave everyone, so not having many would be silly to me, who is controlling the Human population? Really my only problem with vanilla's recruitment is the rates increase when you get a better building. Somehow you magically create a larger pool of more capable warriors with some walls and a roof. This of course does not even fit with the previous idea of preferred regions and limited migrations affecting recruitment. It is just too 'gamey' for my tastes.

Edit; Also, on a side note, all these populations were in decline. The insane increase in replenishment (and a barracks event... forgot about that) goes against reality and certainly lore in my worthless opinion. I could go into great detail here but I will spare you all. I am all about limiting recruitment but I prefer something more realistic but not too realistic, it is just a game for fun after all.

[Gallus]

I agree that the barracs event is unrealistic. Wars have been fought for thousands of years in Middle-earth and you only thought of basic Gondorian spearmen now?! It makes sense for M2TW and Stainless Steel, but it's completely ridiculous in a Third Age setting. You could make a case for a faction like Isengard to have this event since Saruman has only now started breeding Uruks, but it makes absolutely no sense for men and elves.

Ideally replenishment rates should be tied to population, or at least wall size, but I don't know if it's possible.

[Ngugi]

Just for the record, the BE isn't supposed to represent an advancment in technology as in M2, but a reorganization and focus of the capacity of the military and civil structure;

The flames of war are stirring in all of Middle-earth but our military infrastructure is still only rudimentary. While militias and conscripts are being levied across our domain we still lack the equipment, logistical support and command structure needed to bring the full might of our armies to bear.
Mobilization and general preparations are underway but it will still be around ten years before our professional troops are ready to step into the fray while the reorganization and arming of our elite warriors and the implementation of our heaviest and most destructive resources may take another decade.

Whether one fancy that is another matter hehe, but I will say that from a pure game mechnical, and psychological, perspective it makes the new units feel all the more valuable, precious and rewarding, since they will feel earned when you fought, survived and expanded with the lesser units at first, for long enough to gain the 'heavy guns' ^^
In DCI we gone with a semi-BE. From scratch all units are avilable in castle settlements that can construct sufficiently large recruitment buildings, but there is a BE event. That enables larger recruitment buildings in towns/cities, reflecting that those, when our game begins, are not militaristic but civil settlements, who needs time to reorganize to enable somewhat equal military services (in TATW castle settlements are quite pointless, but we as most submods have improved their importance).

There was a mod that set it up like that, but AFAIK it's a very advanced and quite the taxing script for the game to handle.

[alreadyded]

You could just set it up so the advanced units can only be recruited in your capital and you have to upgrade all the other settlements you start with and capture to have advanced troops there. You get the same effect without a predictable script that kicks in the same time every game (not good for an open-ended game). It isn't that I can't use my imagination to get over the script being what it is it is more that there are other ways to achieve the same ends that blend with the gameplay and reality better in my opinion. Of course it is no matter to me how vanilla handles it, I changed it long ago, I even forgot there was a barracks event until I posted above.

[Ngugi]

Aye, there are many ways to go about it, and some are arguably more natural than other, hehe.
As for TATW, no, it's strictly speaking not a matter, since it won't change anyhow ^^

[Vifarc]

Yeah, I think AoR should be soften.
AoR units are boring to attack with, as they're not easy to replenish. At best they are reserve units, not intended to fight; but then they take the place of a less expensive unit which would be less shy to fight...
So I almost don't use them, just as guard of their own settlment.
EDIT: Woops: at least in my DoC submod games.