New unit fails to adopt animations and textures properly

[Iskar]

So, I wanted to try and piece together a new unit from existing ones using this old tutorial by Ishan.

In essence, I was tinkering with some units from Broken Crescent and wanted to create a medium javelineer unit for Byzantium, using the existing body from their medium swordsmen and the shield and weapons from their heavy javelineers.

I followed the instructions in the tutorial for merging the appropriate parts of the meshes to create a new mesh. Furthermore I edited a copy of the relevant texture file to get some different colours, then converted it back to .texture.
When I test the thing in milkshape it looks fine and the textures are assigned and displayed correctly.

For in game usage I pieced together the modeldb entry of the medium swordsman with the animations section of the heavy javelineers and updated the mesh and texture paths for my newly created files.

However, when I try out the unit in battle, either the figure or the attachments do not show the right textures (instead some blurry, half-transparent stuff, so not even silver-surfer style) and, what is more worrying, the units do not show animations but just hover in the air with arms stretched out as they are seen in milkshape. They also do not show all parts of the body or attachments consistently, independent of which part is properly textured, some missing boots, helmets, heads, shields, spears, etc.

What am I missing?

Here are the files and file entries:
modeldb:

14 ere_medium_jav 
1 1 
50 unit_models/_Units/romans/ere_medium_jav_lod0.mesh 6400 
2 
9 byzantium 
62 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/ere_medium_jav_diff.texture 
62 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/ere_medium_jav_norm.texture 
47 unit_sprites/byzantium_ere_heavy_jav_sprite.spr 
5 slave 
62 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/ere_medium_jav_diff.texture 
62 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/ere_medium_jav_norm.texture 
47 unit_sprites/byzantium_ere_heavy_jav_sprite.spr 
2 
9 byzantium 
69 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/attach_ere_medium_jav_diff.texture 
69 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/attach_ere_medium_jav_norm.texture 0  
5 slave 
69 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/attach_ere_medium_jav_diff.texture 
69 unit_models/_Units/romans/textures/attach_ere_medium_jav_norm.texture 0  
1 
4 None 
17 MTW2_Fast_Javelin 
10 MTW2_Spear 2 
20 MTW2_Javelin_primary 
14 fs_test_shield 2 
18 MTW2_Spear_primary 
14 fs_test_shield 
16 -0.090000004 0 0 -0.34999999 0.80000001 0.60000002

export_descr_units:

type             ere medium jav
dictionary       ere_medium_jav      ; Peltastoi Medium Javelin
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Light
accent           Mediterranean
banner faction   main_missile
banner holy      crusade
soldier          ere_medium_jav, 50, 0, 0.80
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw
formation        1.1, 2, 2, 2.5, 3, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         11, 1, javelin, 60, 3, thrown, missile_mechanical, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr    thrown, spear_bonus_4, ap
stat_sec         8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1.2
stat_sec_attr    light_spear, spear_bonus_8
stat_pri_armour  5, 8, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        0
stat_ground      2, -1, 2, 0
stat_mental      11, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 299
stat_cost        1, 1000, 250, 150, 150, 1000
armour_ug_levels 3
armour_ug_models ere_medium_jav
ownership        byzantium, slave

ere medium jav.rar

[jurcek1987]

I checked the att texture and it's messed up so you'll have to redo it. As for the model, Zarathos' tool doesn't want to convert the mesh so I tried with goat but milkshape crashed so your model must have some critical error(s). Can you upload your .ms3d?

[jurcek1987]

Ok I made my own model like you wanted, spathatoi bodies and menaulatoi weapons and shields right? Give it a try

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aq06MrrtakjAkwM_3pduL5BIatob

[Iskar]

I see, so I guess I messed up something when editing the attachment texture file. I replaced the path by the one to the unedited one (screw the colour scheme!) and at least that is displaying fine now.

Here's the ms3d-file:ere_medium_jav_lod0.rar

[Iskar]

I tried out the mesh you provided and it worked just as originally intended. Thanks

However, I was so far unable to find the crucial difference. The model comment was different, but replacing the comment in my version with yours did not solve the problem with my file. The only other thing I noticed was that in your file the hands group was called "hands1" instead of "hands" in mine, but I somewhat doubt that would make the difference.

Maybe it had something to do with the tools I used. For instance, I was only able to merge the meshes via Milkshape, while GOM's Mesh-2-MS3d crashed when I tried the merger. Could that be the problem?

[jurcek1987]

You're welcome . In future I suggest you use this tool, it is easily the best one from my experience. Although it's sometimes a bit too sensitive, for example it doesn't want to convert if the macro and micro group names are identical (hence why I renamed hands to hands1). The model comments are different because this tool creates brand new bounding spheres every time you use it. The only drawback is that it doesn't show skeletons so I use goat for unit cards and this tool for everything else

[Iskar]

Since the new unit is now basically your work, too, would you be fine with it if I made it available to WeekendGeneral for his BC submod?

[jurcek1987]

Of course. And I wouldn't call it work, took like 20 seconds . But isn't this unit too similar to menaulatoi? For ERE I'd add some heavier archers (mourtatoi)

[Iskar]

From what I gathered the mod wants to reflect the lack of specialised archer units in the Komnenan army and makes explicit reference to the prevalence of javelin troops, hence why I wanted to insert a medium javelin unit between the light Peltasts and the heavy Menavlatoi. I set the medium javelineers up with "light_spear" attribute and lower defense values than the Menavlatoi, so they are more of a general line unit that does not compete with the Menavlatoi for being specifically anti-cav.

[jurcek1987]

I read a comment it was done for balancing purposes. It's true that Romans lacked decent native archers but mourtatoi are Christianized Turks.

Your changes make sense but then it might be better to give them swords as secondaries. And as I'm a fussy person I have to point out that these medium javelins are actually heavier than menualtoi, they have mail or lamellar armour while menaulatoi only have leather or light lamellar

[Iskar]

I considered swords, but I read that the Peltastoi explicitly fought with spears mainly. Maybe one could swap the models, so the Peltastoi use the leather armour currently used by the Menavlatoi and vice versa, making the Menavlatoi the heavier unit. Then again, one could also leave the Peltastoi as they are and give the Menavlatoi a speed bonus, properly reflecting their lighter armour, while the Peltastoi serve as line troops alongside the Skutatoi and Spathatoi (that have the same lamellar armour). It is conceivable that the Peltastoi had similar equipment as the other rank and file troops. Higher tier does not always imply better/heavier armour, especially not when the unit in question are skirmishers.

I read about the Mourtatoi, but they seem to not have been mentioned before the 14th century, so they might be somewhat ahistorical. I also actually like the tactical side of a faction that has to rely mostly on javelineers and merc archers rather than having the usual jack of all trades top tier roster. Also, Mourtatoi would be top tier, Palace guard units, if anything, so they would not help remedy the ranged gap the ERE roster currently has in mid tier.

If I were an actual modeler/3d artist I'd venture to create a genuine model for the medium javelineers, of course, but that is frankly beyond my capabilities.

(I hope I am not being too defensive here. I greatly appreciate your input )

[jurcek1987]

Oh I always like to debate my beloved Romans . Hmm I definitely remember reading about mourtatoi and also turkopoles during Manuel's time. They are mentioned both as regular archers (like in CBUR) and also as palace guards (like in Tsardoms). But it doesn't matter much, I also like factions that have handicaps which the player has to overcome.

I'm a modeller and I can try and make some models for you if you like

[Iskar]

Hmm, since most archers seem to have been drafted from christianised non-Greeks, one could introduce a medium tier archer unit for the Romans available only in Turkish recruitment areas, called "Turkopol Archer Auxiliary". Another possibility would be Gasmuli Crossbowmen recruitable in mediterranean ports, though I do not know whether they were prevalent at that time.

PS: Would you mind if I move the last few posts of this discussion to the BC subforum? Our discussion here is not really related to "Skins, Models and Animations" anymore.

[jurcek1987]

Go ahead

[Iskar]

Find the new thread here.

[Gigantus]

Quick question from the original problem: the 'crucifix' stance is a skeleton assignment problem or is it caused by something else (conversion to mesh)?

[jurcek1987]

Both really. It seems the cause is always skeleton related but sometimes a completely working .ms3d ends up broken when it's converted. It happened to me a few times back in the day when I was still using mesh&ms3d but I haven't encountered a single "Jesus syndrome" ever since I switched to Zarathos' tool. It alerts you and identifies any errors in the model (like underweighted or unassigned vertices, wrong group comments...) and creates new and proper bounding spheres which is also a plus. I started using it when I couldn't integrate animated bows to my archers. Bowstring animation requires a different skeleton with a few extra bones and whenever I tried merging them with mesh&ms3d, the skeleton became messed up and the unit unusable.

[Gigantus]

That would explain some odd results, thanks.

[Lifthrasir]

@ Gig, I'm joining Jurcek comments. Same things happened to me by the past but not anymore since I'm using Zarathos tool. However, I stick to v5 of that tool. I can't speak for its latest version (too lazy to install it actually ).

@ Iskar, check this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...faction-thread
You might find some interesting infos

[Iskar]

For the record, regarding the minor issue with messed up textures (semi transparent, blurry):
It seems the problem had to do with the editing in gimp and reconversion to .texture format. I at first used DXTBmp to load the textures and then send them to gimp as editor in bmp format, but the saving/reloading of edited textures turned out to be messy.
It worked out well once I switched to the recommended tool (M2TW modeler's toolbox) to cleanly convert .texture files to .dds files and installed a gimp plugin to be able to edit the .dds files directly without further conversion. (I had to pay attenion to uncheck "load mipmaps" on opening the file, export as .dds with DXT5 and check "generate mipmaps" on exporting.) The textures are now displaying correctly.