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Thread: what makes man religious

  1. #41

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    "wasn't enough to stop"? "enough", fkizz?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Do you want a trophy for figuring out that Early Medieval Ages and beyond (post-Roman colapse) consisted of constant warfare? Like England and France with 100 years war having existed.. Is such insight/knowledge supposed to be impressive? The term Knighthood itself implies rules of fighting for a reason.

    The only conflicts that can honestly be tied to Christianity in terms of responsability in cause are the Crusades (but not only Christianity) and 30 Years War. The rest is Warlords fighting other Warlords like in every single historical period ever.

    Now compare the death toll with WWI and WWII. I'm still awaiting to hear which religions were being fought in WWI and WWII again?
    If WWI and WWII didn't have Christianity as their "casus belli" how come death toll was so high? What was the source then?
    How come after Enlightenment wars with even higher death toll ensured?
    Last edited by fkizz; December 13, 2016 at 07:06 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  2. #42

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    OK, let's dig a little deeper into this for we all know that children by nature need to be taught to be good as being naughty is a natural aspect to them so let's say that when growing up outside of any religion whatsoever what is it that makes them become religious?
    I grew up outside of religion, and was very anti religion a couple years ago.

    I think what made me become more religious was actually studying the history and teachings of the religion i chose, after seeing it popping up all over in the parts of history i enjoyed learning about and also through my friends bringing me closer to it. When i went and participated in it for the first time on my own i actually found i really liked it and it spoke to me.

    So i think its just a case of when people grow outside of a religion, they meet it through various events, give it a go and actually like it or dislike it. that is how they become religious or not religious at all

  3. #43
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    fd7s,

    Although brought up by a religious mother, father not interested, I had to go to the infant section of a Baptist church where everything went in one ear and out the other. My mum also took me, it was always me and not my brothers, to the Billy Graham crusades that continued in Glasgow and boy did I feel a right sissy. So for years after I avoided any church until my own sons came along and my then wife insisted they be baptised. It meant I had to join the church , Church of Scotland, still regarding it all way over me. It wasn't until I reached the age of forty that somethings that can only be decribed as supernatural hit me right in the heart and I became a Christian.

    That is the religious side of religion in me but my main question remains why is it that man looks to religion at all, or, why do they turn to the sky to be religious?

  4. #44
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    The only conflicts that can honestly be tied to Christianity in terms of responsability in cause are the Crusades (but not only Christianity) and 30 Years War.
    More than that...religious fanaticism played a central role in the bloody conflict between Europe and the Moslem world.What about the religious fanaticism of the religious-military Orders like the Templars and Hospitalers, founded in the 12th century Europe?
    What about several Jewish wars of extermination that annihilated entire cities or groups of peoples, in name of the Jehovah?
    Also, on a side note- more recently,keep in mind that secularisation involved dispossession, humiliation and marginalisation of the Church. The French revolutionaries rid themselves of one religion, than they invented another. Wasn't dechristianization of France another way of religious war?



    Also, wasn't Inquisition (in part) a religious war? nowadays,well, look at Bush's Christian crusade ("This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while"); or look at the Muslim fundamentalist wars in the middle east.Or pay attention to the modern Christian crusaders in Europe.What about the role of religion (and ethnicity) in contemporary conflicts?
    -----
    But that's an unrelated answer. Is an answer that is unrelated to the question still an answer? nope.
    Reread what you wrote,
    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Religion wasn't enough to stop the war-mongering nature of people.
    And my question was...
    "wasn't enough to stop"? "enough", fkizz?
    Religion can only aggravate the forces of discord and conflict.

    -------

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Ludicus are you running around?

    Rose: But why would a man need more than one woman?
    Johnny: I don't know. Maybe because he fears death.
    Rose: That's it! That's the reason!
    Hehe
    Well, I can not know. I'm with Huxley, he believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. To put it in another way, my leap of faith failed miserably.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 14, 2016 at 09:19 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  5. #45

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Ludicius.. when Religion was stripped away, war became even more fanatic with more intense propaganda. Higher death tolls aswell. The Western Secular social experiment isn't giving fruits their instigators hoped for, don't blame Religion out of all the things for that.
    Which Religion commanded Stalin and Khrushchev to the Great Purges?

    Which Religions were at war in World War One and World War Two? Why does (almost) everyone run away from this question as if it was the Devil appearing in front of them?

    On Huxley, even he got a whole different view on materialism after his experiments in his book Doors of Perception. A very non-mainstream one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    More than that...religious fanaticism played a central role in the bloody conflict between Europe and the Moslem world.What about the religious fanaticism of the religious-military Orders like the Templars and Hospitalers, founded in the 12th century Europe?
    Doesn't give best impression to say the conception of your country was dirty or a mistake.. Portugal was forged in the Reconquista which involved religious military orders to prevent pro-Jihadi factions (in the time of swords, arrows and shields..) from capturing Italy and France or the whole of Iberian Peninsula.
    Last edited by fkizz; December 14, 2016 at 05:39 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  6. #46
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    There is no doubt that many religious wars exploded onto the planet and if one counts in atheism which is a belief system or religion in itself countless millions have died, moreso I think than in any time in our history. So again the question asks why? Why is man prepared to die for religion as well as non-religion? If there are any spelling errors it's because I have a very persistant husky pushing down of the keyboard.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There is no doubt that many religious wars exploded onto the planet and if one counts in atheism which is a belief system or religion in itself countless millions have died, moreso I think than in any time in our history. So again the question asks why? Why is man prepared to die for religion as well as non-religion? If there are any spelling errors it's because I have a very persistant husky pushing down of the keyboard.
    So humans behave as individuals and in groups, and individual and group priorities can clash. Human societies often clash violently over resources and for other pragmatic reasons, but the systems of violence self replicate and violence can occur in a way that seems meaningless or trivial.

    For example Roman society developed the cursus honorum which rewarded successful generals and set certain goals. The spiteful Cato (the elder) famously caused a lot of trouble when sent out as proconsul to one of the Iberian provinces, burning a lot of towns and enslaving a lot of his subjects most likely to meet certain requirements for certain rewards (a triumph in this case IIRC) and sought all sorts of pretexts to antagonise Iberians and prick them into revolt. The cause of war here might seem political (there were rebels against Rome) but more likely the direct cause was personal 9Cato sought glory and engineered the result he wanted).

    Likewise many wars that have a religious pretext possibly are rooted in political, personal or cultural causes. World Religions tend to have all encompassing theories including theories of government an how to rule. For example Frankish Christianity developed a theory of Holy War, possibly to further the political goals of the Bishop or Rome as well as a bit of social engineering to limit damage to church property from the constant internecine violence: the First Crusade certainly was an opportunity for the papacy to project its power against the Roman Emperor (although control was quickly lost when the very able papal envoy died in Antioch) and drained a lot of feisty warriors out of Western Europe and sent them to the Levant.

    From the Emperor's POV he invited Franks eastward to fight off the Turks, and while the request had a religious gloss (he saw himself as the ruler of all Christians) he intended to wage a just war with God's blessing rather than a pseudo-Jihad.

    So we can argue the Crusade, often described as a religious war is rather a medieval war which gained a religious gloss (as religion in the Middle Ages tended to explain everything).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #48

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    To be fair without first Crusade was done after ~400 years of Jihadists raiding Europe, France and Italy included, asides from Mediterranean.

    Regular soldiers were too afraid to fight Jihadis, but the Crusaders were eager. With the most famous ones having routinely victories against Jihadis such as the Knights Templar, they even became rumored to get their battle strenght from the Holy Grail itself in the gossip of the time. Of course, Saladin and French King Philip The "Fair" ended such glamour. Regardless Knights Hospitallers remained and Templars fled to asylum.

    When Jihadists lost steam and war became more of an enterprise by Ottoman Empire, Crusader side aswell lost steam.

    Necessity is mother of invention/inspiration I guess.

    War will/may happen with or without religion. Logical conclusion after spending some time with history books.
    Last edited by fkizz; December 15, 2016 at 06:15 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  9. #49
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Cyclops,

    So when emperors made themselves gods what propelled them to make such audacious claims? I can understand groups appointing leaders, the cream, good or bad cream, always ascending to the top but surely religion in that sphere must have been around before such claims could be made? If so, how did it get into the nature of man in the first place?

  10. #50

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    There's a distinct effort by some to emphasize the material factors concerned in conflicts involving Christians, whilst at the same time deemphasizing the material factors concerned in conflicts involving Muslims.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

  11. #51

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    There's a distinct effort by some to emphasize the material factors concerned in conflicts involving Christians, whilst at the same time deemphasizing the material factors concerned in conflicts involving Muslims.
    Crusades involves Muslims, 30 years war involves Christians. Those can be said to be religious driven.

    Much of the rest can have parallels to the historical eternal recurrence of warlords plundering each other
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  12. #52

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Being I've never been really religious I can't say what I would feel religiously and try to figure out why I was so, but if I can extrapolate from myself and my family, I'd say what makes someone religious is the same thing that makes us non-religious and thats genetics.

    I was raised to be religious, I went to all the right schools, had a mother who wanted me to be so, and had nothing in my life that should steer me any other way. Despite this at a very young age I rejected it all as illogical. My son, who is very much like me in both genetic gifts and faults was not raised as I was. He was not raised religiously, nor was he raised an atheist, god simply wasn't an topic, though I happily answered questions when they came up. At around the same age I had my epiphany I asked him what he thought about the idea of god and his response was "I don't think so, it doesn't make any sense."

    I don't think there is anything outside of a verifiable miracle that could convince me of a higher power leading our lives, and even if there was I'd think of it more as a superior being than a god, a force of nature beyond our understanding but still natural.


    My feeling is for those willing to commit all to religion, even at the loss of their own life and the taking of others, their minds are such that they can believe these things totally despite a utter lack of evidence. I'd like to call it a genetic defect, but I'm sure its evolved for as part of our social animal natures.

    Now I could see a situation where a child is raised in isolation in such a way that they only know of their religion, have no outside influences and as such embrace it as truth as they know nothing else, but this can't be said of current terrorist types willing to blow themselves up and die for Allah.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  13. #53

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Being I've never been really religious I can't say what I would feel religiously and try to figure out why I was so, but if I can extrapolate from myself and my family, I'd say what makes someone religious is the same thing that makes us non-religious and thats genetics.
    For different reasons I've wondered the same. My elder family figures (great grand parents) were religious, but my parents and their generation are all atheists who give me the weird look for quoting Bible, taking such things seriously, etc.

    Basically I have constant pressure around me to be and act atheist/secular, but it just doesn't click. Feels like training to be an actor rather than organic reaction. If I said I didn't believe in God, I would be lying. And it's like there's a huge anchor on this. No getting out simply because it's how it is.
    For me, secular/atheist culture has a constant subliminal indoctrination: an injection of a pleasure stimulus everytime you agree with said train of thought, but not the obvious, more the 2^2=7/4 type. And a well introduced and structured response of emotional rejection of seeing religion as "life long enemy faction". That if you defeat then there's more pleasure type reward.

    Add the religious tendencies to genetics, and add that all religions encourage their followers to have children, and that in Darwinism having more children means higher genetic sucess (on passing the genes), and that in secular ones it's more individualist hedonist pleasure, therefore less genes passed, and there's second confirmation asides from our stories biases.

    So yea I wouldn't be minimally surprised if a strong genetic component would be involved, given the more sucessful religions literally command reproduction and the having of offspring. Now given some genes go recessive and dominant, as can be seen in people who were former blondes and then go brown hair, and yes, this can criss cross amongst generations.
    Who knows if you may end up with a believer out of his own volition grandson.
    Last edited by fkizz; December 16, 2016 at 03:22 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  14. #54

    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Basically I have constant pressure around me to be and act atheist/secular, but it just doesn't click. Feels like training to be an actor rather than organic reaction.
    This is an interesting take because I had the exact same feeling only from the reverse circumstance. For me as a child I just assumed it would click when I got older, and I had to follow the rules. In fact I was very annoyed with my parents because, it turns out my mothers desire to raise me religiously was due to her feeling she had to rather than deep religious feelings herself. As such as we got older my parents started to get bored with the every Sunday thing and I was mad they weren't going to Church, it was important after all, they kept telling me and now they weren't going regularly.

    For me my moment came in Church, alone (morning mass) and that was the last time I went to Church that wasn't a school for family function. For me, the curtain had been lifted and I finally "got it" but what it was wasn't what I thought it would be.

    After that all of my Church experiences were that of an actor, going through the motions of a play or LARP.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    God doesn't live in churces or temples, if God exists He is hidden inside your mind (sorry I'm atheist, so, I don't like to use the word "soul"), you can meet Him in any moment of your life, or you can never meet Him. It depends on how much you are strong in your materialism or in your faith, there are moments in life when doubt can be very strong either for atheists than for theists, usually they are never good moments, if you're lucky you may define them as "very complex situations, involving you or your beloved ones, extremely difficult to bear or to accept using just your rational intellect", in any case they are moments that you should not wish on anyone, friend or foe no matter .. there, you may meet the doubt and if you're very, very lucky also an answer.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,
    So when emperors made themselves gods what propelled them to make such audacious claims?
    I'm not sure what you are asking the East Roman Emperor was styled the 13th apostle and governor of his church, a claim repeated by some minor European monarchs later. He was supreme in church discipline and governance, and while he could not officially rule on doctrine he could exert influence on the councils that did.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I can understand groups appointing leaders, the cream, good or bad cream, always ascending to the top but surely religion in that sphere must have been around before such claims could be made?
    I think religions began as simple belief systems and vague guesses, and grew as the complexity of society and human thought grew.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    If so, how did it get into the nature of man in the first place?
    Well as I say humans have an inquisitive nature and create explanations as templates for behaviour.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  17. #57
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Cyclops,

    Yes that is quite true after Constantine made Christianity the religion of the empire. The thing is that we know before then Roman Emperors assumed the mantle of gods thus trying to ensure the total commitment of their subjects by religion.

    As to your second point I'm not sure that this was the case because of my own bias towards Jesus Christ being my own Saviour and Lord. But let's assume that man did evolve from lesser beings in the struggle for survival, where did the very thought of reaching to the skies for answers come from?

    It's true that man has a very inquisitive nature because he has shown it through all the advances he has made down through the centuries but all of these have had something to show for it. Where did the idea of gods come from when the generalised feeling is that these don't exist and never have?

  18. #58
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    God doesn't live in churces or temples, if God exists He is hidden inside your mind (sorry I'm atheist, so, I don't like to use the word "soul"), you can meet Him in any moment of your life, or you can never meet Him..
    Agnostic, unless you are firmly convinced that your brain is your God...

    fkizz

    Doesn't give best impression to say the conception of your country was dirty
    False. I haven't said that.Think twice before posting. I said that the religious fanaticism played a central role in the conflict between Europe and the Moslem world.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #59
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Agnostic, unless you are firmly convinced that your brain is your God...
    Atheist, for I try being not so coward to refuse taking a choice.

    ___________________________________________________


    Nobody in fact can be sure about anything in this matter, this is the meaning of faith and moral choices and this is their actual value. As he wrote Pascal:

    .Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false?
    If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists.

    .
    Then I take my risk, I gamble on .. the non-existence of God. I can't prove God doesn't exist, 'cause this is the value of gambling, so, in this age of demented idiots, you can even call me a 'theist-atheist'.

  20. #60
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: what makes man religious

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Atheist,
    Agnostic. Find the mistake and rewrite the sentence correctly.
    if God exists He is hidden inside your mind
    .....
    Edit,
    Diocle
    in this age of demented idiots, you can even call me a 'theist-atheist'.
    In this age of demented idiots, you are free to define yourself as you wish.
    -----
    Diocle
    for I try being not so coward to refuse taking a choice
    Ah, coward. Well, in my opinion, science can't prove or disprove God's existence. (well, not you, my dear "atheist-theist")

    Diocle
    As he wrote Pascal..
    It's a "safe bet" - well, unless God (if he exists) doesn't accept it.There are two sides. God can refuse your bet.
    I tend to agree with Moore and Nicholls, it's "absolutely wicked" for us to base any belief on decision-theoretic self-interest.

    But keep in mind that Pascal firmly believed in a Christian God,
    ... le Dieu d'Abraham, le Dieu d'Isaac, le Dieu de Jacob, le Dieu des chrétiens, est un Dieu d'amour et de consolation; c'est un Dieu qui remplit l'âme et le coeur de ceux qu'il possède; c'est un Dieu qui leur fait sentir intérieurement leur misère et sa miséricorde infinie; qui s'unit au fond de leur âme; qui la remplit d'humilité, de joie, de confiance, d'amour; qui les rend incapables d'autre fin que de lui-même.
    ---------
    (But the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of Christians, is a God of love and of comfort, a God who fills the soul and heart of those whom He possesses, a God who makes them conscious of their inward wretchedness, and His infinite mercy, who unites Himself to their inmost soul, who fills it with humility and joy, with confidence and love, who renders them incapable of any other end than Himself.)
    Last edited by Garbarsardar; December 17, 2016 at 07:29 PM. Reason: removed off topic comment, added translation.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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