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Thread: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

  1. #1

    Icon3 [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul



    1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Overview
    - Divide et Impera's building system has always been a hybrid of the basic vanilla structure with our own ideas woven in. With this overhaul, we look to further modify the effects and add our own unique underlying structures to the system that have not been seen before.
    - One of the primary reasons for this overhaul started as a simple desire to move income from a hidden bonus for all factions to in-game effects. This move allows for various ways to interact/interfere with that income and no longer has it as a phantom bonus simply added every turn. As we started working on this idea, it became apparent that we wanted to alter various other effects to make certain buildings more useful and the effects more rational.
    - Along with the basic changes to many building effects, we have also developed some very unique ideas for buildings. These include special capitals/ports and regional building chains that are restricted to certain regions on the map. These ideas add immersion, variety and a sense of place for the otherwise generic building system of vanilla.


    Building Income Changes
    - One of the main purposes of beginning to look at our building system was our concerns over the way income operates in DeI. Currently in vanilla and DeI 1.1, there is a phantom income bonus to all factions that exists outside of in-game systems like buildings and region production. This bonus is applied no matter the circumstances for every faction and is not impacted by sieging, raiding or any other in-game action.
    - Instead of having that huge invisible bonus in 1.2, we have moved most income to buildings and small bonuses at very low imperium levels. Overall building income has been increased and there is now a small bonus at the lowest imperium levels to help very small factions. With this change, you can directly impact the economy of a faction using raiding and/or sieging - especially at critical economic regions and capitals.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    - Since income is now lower in general, specifically in the early game, we have altered all starting treasuries to be significantly higher. This basically means the player can choose to focus on a certain path but those choices have consequences. Do you risk building up only your economy with a small defensive force while working the diplomacy angle? Or do you go all in on a full stack and try to secure yourself with early war? Perhaps you choose to have a mix of lower tier troops and some select elites to guard your borders while you develop your infrastructure. These various options provide choice and consequence in the early game, rather than just building up an elite stack as fast as possible and flinging them at the nearest small AI.
    - Speaking of the AI, they are also impacted by these changes. Since they have more money to work with at the beginning, they develop their barracks and economic infrastructure in a much better way. Also, it should be more apparent when you defeat a large force from a single region faction in the early game, since their resources have been spent on that force. Difficulty levels will still impact their bonuses, so higher difficulties will still have a more severe AI presence. Also, major historical AI factions have retained their bonuses - so Rome is still a very serious threat!


    Building Effects Changes
    - Another one of the main aspects of this overhaul is a large number of changes to various building effects. From temples to barracks and industry, many effects have been altered or removed with a few ideas in mind. First, we wanted to make various options have a purpose since many do not currently seem worth building. Second, various effects did not make sense when tied to some buildings, such as food usage for some temples or lack of effects for various industrial options. Lastly, we wanted to balance these effects to fit in with the overall gameplay of a campaign and remove some that were negatively impacting battle balance over the long haul.
    - There are quite a few changes, ranging from large to small, but I will overview a few of them.
    - As listed above, building income in general has been increased. Also, as I will detail later in the preview, resources and income from resources have been shifted a bit.
    - Temples have been modified to better reflect the god they represent. Food usage has been removed from many of these temples as it did not make much sense on them.
    - Building upkeep has been added for many buildings. We felt we needed something other than public order and food to have as negatives, so buildings that would normally require maintenance now have an upkeep effect associated with them.
    - Industrial buildings have been improved as a more viable option and farms have been rebalanced.
    - In general, we have removed many on recruitment bonuses for units like morale. These were negatively impacting battle balance over the course of a campaign (since there are so many campaign effects already that impact balance). To replace these, we have added small on recruitment experience bonuses to upper tier barracks for certain unit types.


    Special Capitals and Ports
    - In 1.2, we have developed special regional capital and port buildings for various factions. These allow us to assign special effects for these buildings and add regional flair for the various important spots in the ancient world. These special effects can include basic effects (income, etc), recruitment entries, garrison entries, and other flavor.
    - These special capitals also retain only foreign garrisons for other cultures that take them over. That means they are harder to hold as an occupying force and easier to retake as the original owner. They also retain some of their looks in terms of the internal structure of the city on the campaign map.
    - The special capitals include Rome, Carthage, Syracuse, Athens, Alexandria, Pergamon, Antioch, Massilia, Sparta and Rhodes. The special ports include Carthage, Massilia, Alexandria and Rhodes.
    - Here are various tiers for some of the new buildings:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Regional Resource Chains/New Resource
    - One of the most unique additions to 1.2 will be special regional building chains that can only be built in certain areas. Currently, this concept is tied to the presence of specific resources for those building chains. This concept could later be expanded, however, for other building concepts.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    - In general, resource production has been lowered from the primary chains of minor resource towns. All resource regions will now have a special building chain that gives the player the option of further exploiting that local resource. That exploitation may come in the form of increased income, more of the resource, or other options. These other options include iron/copper equipment workshops and lead processing.
    - Speaking of lead processing, we have added a new resource altogether - silver. Since lead is actually a byproduct of other mining operations, we have changed the primary resource on those locations to be silver. However, silver regions also produce a small amount of lead. Alongside that production, both gold and silver specialized region chains also have the option of building a lead processing building that will further exploit that resource.
    - Here are various examples of the new resource chains:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Other Changes
    - In DeI, we have streamlined recruitment for some cultures already. Now, in 1.2, we have further streamlined these buildings. The woodworker building for the Barbarian factions has been combined into the basic infantry barracks. Also, the Eastern factions now have 2 stables rather than 3 - a basic and an exotic option.
    - We also have various other new buildings and changes, including a new temple system for our new culture being added - Caucasian. We felt that we needed something to accurately reflect that region since Persian and Nomadic didn't really fit. Now, that area has their own culture.
    Last edited by Dresden; December 22, 2016 at 04:15 PM.

  2. #2
    Irishmafia2020's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Very nice - I enjoy the economic aspect of the game, and I look forward to seeing these new capitals be recaptured by their original faction! Great work!

  3. #3

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Such great and thoughftul work overall! Especially I really liked the idea to make regions and capitals more unique, both of Other Changes are very good ones too!

  4. #4

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    The new econ changes are great. It changed the way I develop for sure. Athens in particular is super hot

    The only thing I don't like is the lack of base income. This synergizes with the POR mod in unfortunate ways. Your base income is pitiful, like 500 or so, so you run a massive deficit even using low quality troops. This means you must conquer quickly or die. Even after you conquer, you will be forced to disband your army to build in the new area. This means your precious nobles/warriors/etc people are used for a few turns, then forced to disband (losing them, not returned to pool), which can severely stunt your ability to grow a decent population of nonpeasants. This is further aggravated by the new areas you taking being full of slaves/foreigners, which makes your faction unhappy and hurts growth even more. Even genociding the natives doesn't help boost your civilizations fledgling morale. With some factions in particular, my CAPITAL city would bleed to less than 5k people total, almost all junk classes despite my best efforts to breed (see boii).

    I feel like a base income of ~1500 is a floor. At that point you can support a core of ~8-10 reasonably decent troops full time, which can be augmented for short bursts as needed and then disbanded. Say for example having 6 hoplites and 2 cheap cav you keep, then supplementing them with levies and slingers and the like before a war. This way you don't have to wreck your base population and can still support a decent army without hemorrhaging money each turn. POR is a great tool, but it shouldn't be so restricting that it completely prevents access to good troop types.

  5. #5

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Of course the income changes you are referring to are just now being tested, I am sure balancing will be in order. After all, thats what testing is for.

    Disbanding should give the troops back, it just doesnt show until the next turn. Perhaps its bugged.
    Last edited by Dresden; December 09, 2016 at 01:37 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post

    Disbanding should give the troops back, it just doesnt show until the next turn. Perhaps its bugged.
    I thought disbanding does not give you back those troops, do you suppose it's bugged that it's not showing those troops right away or it's not working?

    So hard to say anything about economy until you will test by yourself. But I like current balance in DEI.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    The disbanded troops should show back up in that region the next turn.

  8. #8
    Vardan the Great's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    I really appreciate the team's efforts to make more detailed and specialized map. This will make the campaign desicions be more strategic even in solo campaigns. Looking forward for my head to head MpC in DeI.
    Cheers guys.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Really nice changes, this should spice up the campaigns nicely, especially the special capitals. I'm also looking forward to the changes to the AI that it will bring.
    "Duty is the great business of a sea officer; all private considerations must give way to it, however painful it may be" - Horatio Nelson.

  10. #10

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    All I want for Christmas is......

    Really really good job guys.

    do you plan to implement a submod option similar concept to a certain existing submod (forgot its name ) which basically at lower imperium level you train troops at lower cost, but their upkeep is higher, and at higher imperium, the other way round?

    I can't wait to see all the new buildings and changes

    Keep up guys!

  11. #11
    Caius Bingerus's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Seems like the backbone of DeI is getting a very deep, strategical overhaul with very good reasons, thoughts and developments, this is what it makes DeI so interesting, thank you again!
    ...the duty of a soldier ends only with his death...


  12. #12

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    At this point CA might as well give up on Rome III.



    "Duty is the great business of a sea officer; all private considerations must give way to it, however painful it may be" - Horatio Nelson.

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    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    - Building upkeep has been added for many buildings. We felt we needed something other than public order and food to have as negatives, so buildings that would normally require maintenance now have an upkeep effect associated with them.
    Is the monetary upkeep cost to buildings, going to effect the player with a flat or percentage value? Both? When we play a campaign, it's only a matter of time before we swim in money.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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    FlashHeart07's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    The building upkeep will effect the overall gdp with a percetage decrease. So if you earn 500 in a province, building a barracks would decrease this income value by something like 10%, so it will cost you 50.
    We tried doing flat values but encountered problems and crashes. Atm values are still being tested and balanced.
    With this we hope to add to the difficulty of smaller factions, without making it impossible, aswell as having people need to think about the placing of different beneficial buildings.
    And the AI will be effected by raiding more than before due to the removal of the hidden income bonus.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    I'm so excited about DEI 1.2!!Great work that brings back the feeling of rome 1 in a game that was utterly destroyed by the developers.Thanks guys again and again,much respect for what you do The money we spend for games go to the wrong people...

  16. #16

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    All of this looks good.

    However, I am afraid how this will affect the AI. As it is, the AI already struggles with keeping up any kind of a sensible economy. If you take away the "baked in" income, this will, imo, make it even harder for the AI, especially early game.

    The larger treasuries probably won`t really make up for it, because the AI will squander it all on low quality troops, and then either:
    a) Blob, which is not that bad, or;
    b) Get crushed (by the faction that is blobbing), which means less factions, earlier on. Which is not good, imo.

    Overall, not bad ideas, however, I would consider giving a fixed income bonus to the AI (and AI only); and not tied to imperium level.

    Oh yeah, and the raiding thing: I believe this is also a bad idea considering the AI. The AI is already woefully inapt to deal with strategic troop placement.

    For instance, it is extremely easy to take (and for instance sack) Carthage as Rome. Or Rome while playing Carthage.
    Now you will make it even more important to protect certain regions and provinces, while the AI tends to just blob, and locate all it`s forces in it`s most recent area of conquest.

    IMO, this is a tricky path.

    Take note, I am not saying that this is surely to fail as a feature, however I am worried how it will work out.
    Did you guys test this? How did it look in test campaigns?
    Last edited by popovic; December 09, 2016 at 01:29 PM.

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    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    It acutally works much better for the AI. Since buildings are giving AI much more income, then later on AI has more cash, before it was mostly working on that hidden bonus but as the faction grew larger, that bonus was not enough and we had large brain dead factions. Plus AI gets bonuses from difficulty level.

    Believe it or not, but we actually test stuff before we put it in a preview

  18. #18

    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    It acutally works much better for the AI. Since buildings are giving AI much more income, then later on AI has more cash, before it was mostly working on that hidden bonus but as the faction grew larger, that bonus was not enough and we had large brain dead factions. Plus AI gets bonuses from difficulty level.
    What about early/mid game? How much do the buildings help there? Will we see even less factions surviving into late game?

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    Believe it or not, but we actually test stuff before we put it in a preview
    Responses like this make me think that some of you guys don`t really want any discussion here. Just appraisal.

  19. #19
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    You must be fun at parties If I would be serious I would not put emoji at the end. Entire mod is built on ideas and comments from users.

    Early on AI goes just fine, haven't seen any factions being taken down super fast. Best way to describe the experience with new changes is that it just plays out as it should. Everything seems so natural and easy to understand why something happens.

  20. #20
    Mepper's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: [PREVIEW] 1.2 Buildings and Income Overhaul

    Looks amazing. This mod as it is already makes the game A LOT better and 1.2 seems to take the awesomeness to a new level

    But I do share at least a bit popovic's concern. Although the old bonus was kinda weird, highly unhistorical, and made adding provinces and buildings of small significance in the early game, it did give smaller AI factions a better chance to fend off bigger nations. To me at first hearing it sounds as if the removal of the bonus would be a huge buff to larger factions. Especially small factions that spent their starting money unwisely would be extremely vulnerable and nations with a relatively high number of starting provinces would blob more easily (given that they don't have a crazy number of enemies since turn one ala the Seleucids).
    But well I didn't test the game and you guys did, and if the results so far are just fine then my concern is apparently unnecessary. Keep up the good work

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