Hello everyone, and welcome to our first release. This pack does not include any custom models, it is intended to be PURELY for feedback on the UI and stat balancing.
The Ecstasy of Potatoes
[Release] Public Battle Balancing (01/12/16)
Hello everyone, and welcome to our first release. This pack does not include any custom models, it is intended to be PURELY for feedback on the UI and stat balancing.
Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; July 03, 2017 at 07:07 AM.
Foederatus
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Amazing!Can't wait for the models!
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Omgperfect !!. I will download it as soon as possible. Thanks
Foederatus
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Feedback
I played Gondor and Isengard test:G vs G, G vs I。Those results came from a bunch of battle test.
Gondor:
1.Gondor pike infantry,both citidal and fountain guard are very weak,Gondor axe warrior and sword infantry can almost defeat them even attack in the front when they are in pike formation.When fontain guard fought alone,it also seems not good enough.They don’t act like elite infantry.
2.Though fountain guard own the best armor in Gondor according to its description,but they doesn’t seem to be tough or can hold longer than the other units.
3.Compare sword infantry to footmen of the Ringvale,sword infantry wear heavier armor but it got way more charge bonus while sword infantry are much more less defensive and less melee attack,this is funny...
4.Sword infantry were so equal to footmen of the Ringvale.
Isengard:
1.Orcs and Uruk infantry shouldn’t have shield wall,they are not skillful.
2.They are better than Gondor units leave alone 200 men of each unit.
3.Orcs and Uruks should get tire slower than human and run faster.
4.Extremely powerful Uruk-hai crossbow!
5.Archers and Crossbows are little bit overpower.
6.Berserker underpower.
Overhaul problem.
1.Shield wall adds 15 shield defense which increase so incridble.
2.Missile units are so power no matter against light or heavy armor units. I mean,those very heavy infantry seem so weak!!!!Look t my fountain guard!They starting to wave within 1 minute under one archer unit’s fire.In my opinion this happens because armor value is too low.
3.Where is HP????
4.This one is big,Why rating,morale and melee attack those stuff is very low?Which makes battle last for 22222 long.This is also the reason why missile units are op.
5.Pike infantry are weak and fight too close(weapon distant) to the enemy.
Love this mod.Make it better!
Last edited by Nikoline; November 28, 2016 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Wrong words
The Ecstasy of Potatoes
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Thanks a heap for the feedback Nikoline, next time it'd be nice to have a bit better format but meh thats ok.
Gondor 1 and 2: Ok so firstly, Pikes. There are kind of two different types of pikes, "longspears", and pikes themselves. I had a lot of trouble balancing these two types and I must've made a mistake somewhere. Pikes are meant to be really terrible in combat because their ability to protect from the front was meant to be really good, thats why Fountain Guard are really bad because in addition to their purposely bad stats, I broke the way they actually fight in pike formation. It seems I stuffed up the weapon length values, so could you tell me whether the "Vineland Watchmen" unit for Dale feels more like a pike should?
Gondor 3: With armour, I wanted to make it so armour makes you last longer in a fight but this is counteracted by less mobility and lower stats (but higher charge bonus). This idea was based off the Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egen fight from "Game of Thrones", where the lightly armour unit is very agile whilst the unit in armour can't move as much but has much more protection.
Isengard 1: I gave shield wall to all Tier 3 and 4 sword infantry I think, I guess orcs might have to lose it.
Isengard 2: Although all Isengard and Mordor units have +25% men, this is meant to be counteracted by having lower stats, do you think I should nerf them more?
Isengard 3: I can't make different races get tired faster, but I can make them run/walk faster.
Isengard 4: Uruk-Hai Crossbows have some pretty good armour piercing damage, I guess I need to make them a bit more inaccurate.
Isengard 5: I thought archers were balanced well, they're only good on units all by themselves since once a unit gets into melee the archer can rarely shoot them. What about archers do you think is overpowered?
Overhaul 1: The special ability stats were mostly taken from the "Ancient Empires" mod with permission, I did a bit of tweaking but hadn't overhauled each special ability, I guess I should.
Overhaul 3: All units have 5HP except for Trolls. Just a design choice.
Overhaul 4: I figured it'd be better than one unit maybe having 1 attack and 1 defence whilst another has 80 attack and 50 defence or something.
Melee attack makes battles last long, I was actually worried that battles WOULDN'T last long enough so I'll see what other people have to say as well.
Any other feedback is very appreciated, I'm glad you like the mod.
Reading this response it makes it seem as though the balancing is a bit amateur-ish, but the whole point of the public release is to fix this stuff
Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; November 28, 2016 at 05:59 AM.
Civis
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
I'm probably the one which is completely mad about this mod. I'm checking moddb every minute for new update! Today is snowy day in my country. When I first time went into Middle Earth (Third Age Total War) that was winter few years ago. Ofc RoM isn't TA, it's better. I got nostalgia today, many times. Personally I don't dig in statistics and other stuff, I just love to watch the show. So my opinion about this balance will be quite general, I have never done something like this before so please, don't be angry:
- I have never seen before too many finishers...it's simply perfect...gore and blood, I wrote a post about it when I saw video previews. That was strange how did you get that but...oh God.
- Maybe it's only me but I have FPS buff (?) Pretty smooth feeling in menu. (Didn't have that before (?))
- UI in menu...stunning. Gondorian UI...I'm dying. Dalian UI...kill me.
- Words from books in battle loading screen (big surprise)...shock.
- I knew that your units are great, models in HD but I'm really surprised about rest. The rest for that I didn't pay attention to. Love new unit cards.
- Good balance, orcs, uruks and uruk-hai are not so weak but also gondorians and dalians are not so op.
I have noticed some little things which are bad. To be honest, they don't disturbing but probably I need to write something bad, right? I know that all of them are little things and I don't want to pick holes.
- Some elite units like Fountain Guards are really week in combat, I know that they fight with pikes but they should be more buff because they are elite. Elite is elite in all ways.
- There are a lot of units which should have changed tier.
- Citadel guards are pinned unit.
- Gondorian photo in background of loading screen should be in HD, or another.
- All units have only advantages.
This balance is good (ONLY MY OPINION) for me. I mean, there are a lot of things which I love to watch so I can enjoy every battle. I have noticed that archers are really important. They can kill by one shot! That's what I'm talking about! It's realistic for me. I'm trying to imagine that with models etc. Really, really good job guys. ♥ Hail RoM Team.
P.S The second balance will probably be better for people which want to play more tactical etc.
Tiro
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Don't worry too much on balancing guys. It is a long and difficult process and I know Caligula made from neigh-scratch. The second system that is on its way will be tested thoroughly far more than this one has had a chance for that. Also many tweaks havent be looked into. stuff like shieldwalls, ammunition, etc.
We are elated to hear the UI makes everyone jizz in his pants xD!
The quotes were a discussion point. I gathered them very strictly and am glad to hear they are recieved well.
Last edited by Maestro1; November 28, 2016 at 10:18 AM.
Rise of Mordor: a total overhaul mod for Total War: Atilla
Writer, rosterer, lore-master and battle balancer for Rise of Mordor
'So do I, and so do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.'
Citizen
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Ok, played one test battle (Dale vs Isengard). Here's the after battle screen:
The battle length felt okay to me. As you can see, it was just 11 min, and probably something like 5 minutes of those were just marching into battle. Also, the Vineland pikemen seemed to hold the line pretty well, though a lot of those 200+ kills on one of the pike units were snaga.
One weird thing I noticed:
- All units have 0 Missile Block chance, except the Pikemen, who get +15 Missile Block from the Pike Wall ability. Not sure if this is intentional, but it seems weird that the only dudes who have a missile block chance are the ones that actually lack a shield!
Other than that, I think my cheap militias performed too well for their price overall (only the unit that went into the red routed). They were able to hold the line against the much heavier Uruk Hai units, and cause heavy casualties. I would suggest decreasing the morale of low quality units, as imo militias should be really cost-effective if you can keep them from routing, but low morale and suspectibility to mass routs should be their major weakness.
Edit:
Also, Uruk Hai crossbows didn't seem too effective in this test. Maybe because the computer barely used them. In any case, I wouldn't nerf them just yet.
Btw, just noticed that Snaga were the most effective Isengard units! They need a nerf immediately! Snaga OP (just kidding
Edit2:
I played a second test battle, this time as Isengard myself:
The result basically mirrors the first battle. Even leading Isengard myself, I was only barely able to scrape a win! The archer/militia spam combo is definitely too strong. Basically those Gondorian Spear Militias almost tore my Uruk Hai into pieces. I have mixed opinions on the Berserkers: when I first threw them into battle on a counter-charge against the Gondorian Cav (which the computer basically suicided straight into my lines), they whiffed really badly. Basically, they got maybe 20 kills, were completely massacred and routed. But then, they eventually came back, and I threw them into the spearmen vs uruk hai blob where my Uruks were getting torn up by those crappy militias. Basically, the about 50 surviving Berserkers went berserk and got 100+ killls, turning the tide of the battle and allowing me to barely scrape a pyrrhic victory out of that. So they really feel like a glass cannon, but overall probably too weak. Also, I feel that Berserkers aren't really a good choice for a general unit. Imo you should make a separate "Uruk Hai Bogyguard" similar to what they had in Third Age (or something along those lines), since Berserkers would hardly be deployed as a bodyguard unit. As to the Fountain Guard....yeah, they suck all right. The most expensive Gondorian unit, and one with the worst performance by far.
So, some general remarks:
- Archers appear too strong indeed, largely because no one has a Missile Block chance. Even heavily armoured troops feel like paper soldiers since their armour isn't enough to shield them against arrows and their shields don't count at all.
- Cheap militia infantry are basically a match for heavily armoured elite troops. They have too strong morale, and probably too strong attack as well (some of those Gondorian militias slaughtered close to 200 heavy Uruk Hai). These types of troops should mostly be a holding force, not a damage dealer.
Last edited by Charerg; November 28, 2016 at 03:40 PM.
Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader
Laetus
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
i cant seem to play a test battle i select custom game and mod crashes. deleted everything in attila folder re-installed game and the same thing happens.wtf
Citizen
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Probably happens because you have some custom battle preset left from another mod that causes the game to crash (since it tries to load up something that no longer exists, as that mod isn't active). Try this:Originally Posted by Empire_tw281
- Go to: C/Users/YOUR USER NAME/AppData/Roaming/The Creative Assembly/Attila/battle_preferences
- Delete .sp_battle_setup_preferences.
Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader
Laetus
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
That worked great. Thanks.Woah
The Ecstasy of Potatoes
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
1: I didn't change anything related to Blood and Gore, so I guess that's just good luck.
2: No idea why FPS boost, if you want an even bigger boost this post might help you out https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co..._with/d6skbfl/
4: Hopefully the quotes were a good surprise.
5: All models are just placeholders and obviously aren't going to be in the actual version.
7: What other elite units are weak besides the pike ones?
9: What do you mean about Citadel Guards being pinned?
3 and 10: I'll pass on that feedback to the UI guy
11: What do you mean? Archers are pretty terrible in melee, heavily armoured units have lower stats but better armour.
1: Yeah the stats of special abilities such as shield wall is broken, I forgot to edit them.
2: Perhaps the problem with doing low number stats like I am is morale is hard to balance, I find if you flank the low tier units they crumble way too quickly.
3: Archers being too OP - Do you reckon they need less ammo, longer reload time, more inaccuracy or less damage done? Or combination of em all?
4: The militia units were kinda made around the idea that if you're lightly armoured you're way more agile, whilst if you're covered in heavy armour you can barely move.
Thanks to both of you for the feedback.
Does anyone have any thoughts on trolls or very heavy cavalry such as Swan Knights, Rhovanion Regents or Servants of the Eye?
Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; November 28, 2016 at 05:28 PM.
Citizen
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
2. Well, low tier units should crumble really quickly. They're not supposed to be a unit that you can rely on to hold the line. At the moment, there's no need to take any heavier/more expensive troops, as you can form a solid line out of basic militias.
3. Hard to say. The answer may not necessarily be to nerf the archers, they're supposed to be effective against some units, after all. Thing is, the heavily armoured line infantry suffer massive casualties against them as well. I would just re-introduce missile block, so those shields actually have an effect. Also, I would recommend giving most troops testudo/shieldwall style abilities, so you have the option to deploy them in a more defensive manner, at the cost of mobility and the loss of charge bonus.
4. I think that idea isn't very realistic. GoT fights in general are pretty "hollywoody", they're not realistic representations. The main downside of armour is that an armoured unit would tire faster and move slower (or rather, run slower, I should say, armour doesn't generally really hinder walking speed). By this I refer to movement speed. In my opinion it shouldn't apply to attack stats, because first of all, armour was designed to allow dexterity for the wearers, especially the full ability to move their arms. Secondly, these are more highly trained troops who know how to work as a unit and support each other (or have inhuman brutality/strength so the extra weight doesn't matter, in case of the Uruk Hai), and this would make them far more effective than some bunch of levied dudes with just basic training and little experience of operating as a unit. Remember that a battle is a very different thing from a duel. In a tightly packed formation you don't have any mobility in any case, it all comes down to stamina and brute force basically (as well as skill, but more in the form of discipline and ability to work as a unit than individual skill). In formation combat, an armoured unit would and should have a major advantage over an unarmoured one.
Last edited by Charerg; November 28, 2016 at 05:50 PM.
Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader
Decanus
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Also, armor should stop missiles more. I agree that if 1 or 2 missiles bypass armor, the unit should be dead. But the armor itself should stop a lot of the weaker missiles from average bow units. Of course heavy longbows or crossbows should have no problem piercing most armor, but have weaknesses of their own. For longbows, rarity of trained men to operate them and time required to train (as well as quickly tiring the arms), and for crossbows time to reload them and accuracy at extreme ranges (crossbows can launch the bolt a far greater distance). Historically, archers would have a vast supply of arrows in baggage trains but I can think of no way to represent that in-game.
The Ecstasy of Potatoes
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
The whole point of 5HP system was so arrows always get kills on each volley, rather than just degrading the units armour.
Also, there is a special ability that allows units to replenish their ammunition when they run out, I think they walk slower whilst doing it and it takes a few minutes. I could give that to units I guess, with harsher restrictions to it.
What do you think of the "Focus Fire" ability missile troops have that allows them to bombard on a specific area?
Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; November 28, 2016 at 11:42 PM.
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Great work, I will report feedback as soon as possible!
Last edited by SmithErik; November 29, 2016 at 01:08 AM.
Foederatus
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
According to fountain guard description,they are well-trained elite soldiers.I suggest they fight like pike when they stay formation.At the mean time,each soldier can also fight alone under different situation.They can fight like halberdiers in 1212ad mod I suggest.They can attack,fight alone the horse and soldiers,or they form pike formation to defend.
I also noticed that pike formation decrease melee attack,this d-buff can put on fountain guard but not the citidal pike.In my opinion Citidal trained for pike formation,they fight better in formation.
Citizen
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Ok, I've taken a bit closer look at the unit stats, and I'd suggest something similar to what Age of Charlemagne has for the differences between an unarmoured unit (of lower quality) and an armoured one:
So, let's compare the difference between an AoC Swordsman and an Armoured Swordsman (I feel the comparison is valid, because AoC uses a mod-inspired balancing system where all inf have 100 HP, and all cav have 150, similar to other systems like the 1 HP and 5 HP):
Name: Swordsmen, Armoured Swordsmen
Price: 350, 700
Melee Attack: 29, 34
Melee Damage: 40, 40
Charge Bonus: 14, 17
Melee Defence: 54, 62
Armour: 10, 46
Missile Block: 40, 40
- In addition to base missile block, shield/spear wall gives +25 missile block chance, giving the option of holding a solid defensive formation. This makes a feeling of a far more realistic battle, where armies don't simply rush at each other, but advance more steadily in tightly packed ranks (at least for the player, the AI rarely uses this ofc). In general, base Attila suffered from poor gameplay that was centered around madly charging at the enemy with little tactical thinking (as the high charge bonuses were far more effective than any formations like shield/spear wall, and even the cheapest missile units could kill hundreds of men with relative ease), which is both unimmersive for the player and not very enjoyable gameplay from a tactical standpoint.
- Note that the differences between the two units are fairly marginal, except the armour value. There you get a massive over 300% difference. This gives the player a very enjoyable experience in my opinion, since there's a big difference between how the two units perform on the battlefield. The armoured swordsmen feel much more "beefy" and reliable, although the offensive potential of both units is quite similar.
- The standard swordsmen have the "Resistant to fatigue" trait, representing the fact that they wouldn't tire so quickly, owing to their lighter equipment.
Now, let's compare two units with a similar role from battle balance beta (I'll shorten this to BBB from now on):
Name: Gondor Sword Militia, Gondor Sword Infantry
Price: 500 , 850
Melee Attack: 15, 11
Melee Damage: 3, 3
Charge Bonus: 9, 22
Melee Defence: 5, 4
Armour: 8, 12
Missile Block: 0, 0
- As you can see, the difference in armour values is really minuscule, just +50%.
- Also, note the complete lack of missile block chance. Although the Sword Infantry can get +10% from Shield Wall, this is so marginal that you're much better off doing the classical YOLO-charge that was the "bread and butter" tactic back in vanilla Attila. Even more so, since this is the only way to really take advantage of the large charge bonus.
- Speaking of the charge bonus, can't say I agree with it. For some units who have more of a "shock infantry" role, this could make sense, but generally you'd expect a lightly equipped infantry unit to have a stronger charge bonus, precisely because they can run faster and get more momentum behind the charge. An armoured unit would probably either walk or trot, even when charging, since they're more suspectible to getting tired.
- Also, regarding damage values, it makes no sense to give archers 5 dmg and melee troops 3 dmg in a 5 HP system. If someone skewers you with a sword, it's just as deadly as an arrow. In fact, most of the time melee combat would cause the vast majority of casualties in Medieval battles. I would suggest either bringing the melee dmg up to 5, or dropping the arrows down to 3 (this would ofc require other changes to compensate).
- Neither unit has "Resistant to fatigue", so they would seem to tire at the same rate, as far as I can tell.
Edit:
Forgot the damn tables don't actually work. Really annoying, but at least the values should be visible now.
Last edited by Charerg; November 29, 2016 at 06:37 AM.
Under the patronage of Finlander, of the Imperial House of Hader
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Have you guys requested a front page announcement? It'll help get more people seeing this and hopefully give you even more feedback.
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The Ecstasy of Potatoes
Re: [Release] Public Battle Balancing
Ooh fancy, thanks for the heads up! I'll ask MrJ or Vikus if they want to.Have you guys requested a front page announcement? It'll help get more people seeing this and hopefully give you even more feedback.
So in AoC the price doubles for effectively better armour, 360% better for the difference between those two units
All the stats for formations/abilities such as shield wall are absolutelyfor my balance system, I knew from the start that they definitely had to be worked on.
I'll play around with resistant to fatigue for lightly armoured troops.
I don't really want to change my system of stats, I think armoured troops SHOULD have lower combat stats but last longer.
Also, this quote from a while ago I forgot to respond to. I don't want low tier units to be useless/rubbish like plebs are in Rome 2 or zombies are in Warhammer, where you're actually shooting yourself in the foot by bringing them. I'm fairly sure each Dale units took something like 24 to 60 hours of model. All that work is wasted if players never bring specific units.
So basically so far this is what the feedback is pointing towards?
- Make arrows do less damage, and slower reload time perhaps.
- Make the difference between longbows and short/composite bows much more noticeable.
- Check out how "Refill Ammunition" works and perhaps implement it but with big debuffs eg slower walking speed and takes longer
- Fix all the stats that are assigned to formations such as shield wall
- Make orcs/goblins faster than humans
- Fix pikes so they're not OP but not UP either
- Make crossbows more inaccurate/slower reload time
- Make elite units actually elite and noticeably better
- Balance lower tier units, they're a bit too powerful compared to their cost
Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; November 29, 2016 at 06:28 AM.
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