Is recognition that Jews have the best ideology of the Abrahamic cults the reason Muslims and Christians hate Jews?

[fkizz]

I see, an Atlas...would you mind to quote the Atlas?...it seems a very bad source,

So are you implying the Atlas of Jewish Civilization co-authored by Jewish Scholars is a bad Source on Jewish affairs? I expected a better move than this from you.
When discussing Jewish affairs are you implying subtly the Jews are lying to the Gentiles or something?

I mean if I want to learn about France I should give French sources a try assuming I can, and assume English ones during the Medieval period might not be very kind to the Frenchman.

If you want to make an e-peen competition of who can quote more history books on the internet, that's a rather low-self esteem activity, do I need to explain why?

Anyway issue was: Was Pope Alexander VI, enabler of Spanish Inquisition from Crypto-Judaism families or not?

Even According to Jewish Atlas, Yes he was. So no it wasn't "just" Italian merchants rambling gossip on the Pope as you implied.
Somescreen all you want, it's pretty much just damage control by this point.


What else is there to discuss. Both Jews and Gentiles agree on the matter. You haven't even consulted my source and say it's bad by default. Brings to mind the old detective joke.

[basics]

Dracula,

For the most they do not but there are those that are being converted by the Gospel and one can certainly see and hear their testimonies on youtube.

Yes but if the Patagonese occupied the land in strength one could then justify a claim. The point is that continuity is important here because for 6,000 odd years the land has been known as the Land that God gave to Israel and as I said at no time were all the Jews ejected from it plus wherever that people were taken there was always one who rose up inside the governments of the occupiers and who saw his people returned to the land.

[Dracula]

Yes but if the Patagonese occupied the land in strength one could then justify a claim. The point is that continuity is important here because for 6,000 odd years the land has been known as the Land that God gave to Israel and as I said at no time were all the Jews ejected from it plus wherever that people were taken there was always one who rose up inside the governments of the occupiers and who saw his people returned to the land.

On the contrary, for most of the time they hadn't been living there, that is - before and after the romans. Not that one cares for the dumbest land on earth god chose to give to such.

[Ludicus]

So are you implying the Atlas of Jewish Civilization co-authored by Jewish Scholars is a bad Source..?

...according to the book review.Follow the link provided.

Anyway issue was: Was Pope Alexander VI, enabler of Spanish Inquisition from Crypto-Judaism families or not?...According to Jewish Atlas, Yes he was

I just say, I'm waiting for your quote.

If you want to make an e-peen competition of who can quote more history books on the internet

You haven't quoted any sources to substantiate your claim.To support an argument, you need to provide expert opinions. That's exactly what I have done.
------
As I told you before,repeatedly-try to understand the historical context...according to the history books and historical sources- obviously!
In the occupied Italy, in France, and other countries of Europe, the anti-Spanish phobia attained its peak around 1590,
A splendid summary- just some brief excerpts,

It seems that in the sixteenth century, the century of of Spanish preponderance in Europe, public opinion, especially in the many countries dominated by Spain, suspected the people of the Iberian Peninsula of being more or less Jewish.This was particularly true in Italy, whose people had good cause to reach conclusions so wounding to the Spanish pride.
The Italian pamphleteers lamented the fate of the country.
As early as 1500 the epithet was applied to Pope Alexander VI, Rodrigo Borgia, who was of Spanish origin.
The people though that all Spaniards were Jews, just as in the nineteenth century they thought that all Britons were tourists.
But this was not true only for Italy, In the course of the century, Spain became the number-one enemy of France.Innumerable pamphlets appeared, vilifying the overpowerful neighbor.

L'Anti- Espagnol, one of the most popular, inveighed against against the Spaniards as follows; "...cads of Castile, bastard Catholics,half-Jews and half-Moors scarcely removed from the synagogue and the Koran"
As late as 1680 the French dictionary of Pierre Richelet contained the following definition: "Marrano; abusive term which we call the Spaniards"
According to the memoirs of Vincent Carloix, "The Spaniards were marranos before they were Christians!"
"I do not know", wrote Diego de Hermosilla, "why this misfortune has struck Spanish nobility, so highly qualified and held in such wretched esteem, because of the ignominious name of marranos which other nations persist in applying to the Spaniards"

Through the Europe, country by country, it would be easy to find many more examples.

(Source, The History of Anti-Semitism, Volume 2: From Mohammed to the Marranos, page 219)
---
I repeat- in conclusion, was Alexander VI a Jew? probably not.
--------
That said- without irony- I hope this is not your preferred "historical" source,
Aangirfan: THE BIG SECRET - THEY'RE ALL JEWS

[fkizz]

Ok I get it you will deny person X has judaism pracitioner family roots even when jews and gentiles themselves admit. And even if that person has, it doesn't matter because everyone is a crypto-jew anyway, relativism for everyone...

If for you the Jewish Atlas is a bunch of lies, or "bad source without even reading it", aka a watered down version of "fake news/source" and the non-Jewish sources that say the same are lies aswell because they don't play to your tune, then nothing can convince you..

Then not even a letter setling this issue from the Sahedrin signed by Netanyahu, Pope Francis and Guterres would settle your doubts on this matter, there would still be artificial doubt.

Your posts show more the phase 1, denial, rather than real debate.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

brings to mind "anti-semitism heroes" who still defend epic characters like Soros

The literal Jewish Atlas confirms Pope Alexander VI was a marrano, from crypto-jew families initially. So whatever else you want or need?
Is this Atlas a bunch of lies then? Is Martin Gilbert a Liar who writes lying books? It's either one or the other.

[basics]

So what is being said here is that some Jews converted to Christianity to escape persecution and despite that continued to practise Judaism secretly. That would mean that they secretly denied that Jesus was/is the Christ, something that would be uncovered the day they died and had to face God. Not a situation I would hope to encounter ever.

[Ludicus]

The literal Jewish Atlas confirms Pope Alexander VI was a marrano, from crypto-jew families initially

As I asked you before,please,quote your source.

Is Martin Gilbert a Liar who writes lying books?

Please, quote your source.Martin Gilbert is a very good historian.
Btw, Martin Gilbert is the editor, not the author. Martin Gilbert wrote a different,a better Atlas of Jewish Civilization- and also the Routledge Atlas of Jewish history.
According to Reference Sources in History: An Introductory Guide ( here, read the page 239), your source (??) doesn't have scholarly rigor.Quoting,

"...covering all of Jewish history, but not with the same detail and scholarly rigor are the Illustrated Atlas of Jewish Civilization: 4,000 years of Jewish History..."
------
In the Routledge Atlas by Martin Gilbert, there is no reference of a Jewish/marrano Pope Alexander VI, particularly in the chapter "Secret Jews from Portugal and Spain, 1492-1930". I just finished reading the Routledge Atlas.
-----
Josephine Bacon is the author of your source (?), and has mainly written popular food history books. She is not an historian. Take a look,
Book Gallery – Josephine Bacon

Again,quoting,

as a reliable history book , however, the book is not to be trusted...It is marred by repeated factual errors, superficial narratives, arbitrary interpretations, and periodic sermonizing... the salient feature pointing to her inadequate preparation in writing this text is that the only historian cited in the entire book is Max Diamond

So, it seems that the Atlas doesn't have bibliography. IF the author claims "Alexander VI was Marrano", that's not common knowledge. What/were are the bibliographic citations, secondary or primary sources?
I wrote IF, because I'm still waiting for your quote.

[fkizz]

I've done it several posts ago. Page 73 Portuguese Edition, go check it.

You're basically blaming me for giving credit to Martin Gilbert while saying the Atlas he co-authored is a bad source but at the same time Martin Gilbert is a good historian.. Double think.

This is more a personal Feud than a debate. What's the point then.
Let's not go offtopic.

-------

So what is being said here is that some Jews converted to Christianity to escape persecution and despite that continued to practise Judaism secretly. That would mean that they secretly denied that Jesus was/is the Christ, something that would be uncovered the day they died and had to face God. Not a situation I would hope to encounter ever.

There was also agreement to let them practice Judaism in their neighbourhoods as long as they didn't show off their religion it in public square. If they were discreet they could easily pass by. Then there were also decrees of right to (physical) self defense in some jewry neighbourhoods where the non-jew would basically be at his own risk to start trouble there.
This is one type of marrano. The other types were the ones who pretended conversion but didn't really convert, or converted but re-converted back to Judaism.

Then you had the number 3, Jews who did in fact convert to Christianism.
All of these 3 situations can fall under the "marrano" or crypto-jew definition.

So someone who came from a marrano family and converted without re-converting back is a de-facto Christian and no longer a Jew/Judaism practicioner, which from a religious metaphysical point has no controversy, but from a materialistic/racialistic one can create a soap opera.

[Ludicus]

I've done it several posts ago. Page 73 Portuguese Edition, go check it

NOT TRUE.
#136
You just said,

Feel free to buy the Source and check it yourself.

I've asked you repeatedly to quote the Atlas. I can't understand the reason for your reluctance to quote your presumed source.

[fkizz]

Hey there's a thing such as copyrights. I don't want to play with that especially on TWC. The Atlas is good for buying, if issues about jewish culture bother you that much, why not buy it?


No I'm not going to scan it and upload, for a reason like one thread where a user got upset at me saying the source is false crap but then asking for more.
Anyway you spent your "debate posts" complaining at a Source you don't even know what it says and now made it into a personal Feud de-railing everything.
I think you're older than me, so show that.
Now please stop de-railing, it's getting cringy.

[Ludicus]

there's a thing such as copyrights.

I have quoted several books. None of my posts were deleted. Do you know why?
Because if you’re only quoting a few lines from a full-length book, you are likely within fair use guidelines, and do not need to seek permission. As an example: 200-300 words from a book-length work in a educational context. It does not affect the likelihood that people will buy the original work.An example, a Peter Heather’s quote page 19: Quote: Peter Heather, migration is the great Satan · john hawks weblog
--------
Fair Use and Copyright and What Every Writer ... - The Book Designer
------

I'm waiting for your quote. Two or three short lines are enough. Remember what you wrote,

The source that Pope Alexander VI was a Marrano (Crypto-Jew in Portuguese/Spanish terms) is..

Page 73 of Atlas Ilustrado da Civilização Judaica. (Ilustrated Atlas of Jewish Civilization, Portuguese version)
Feel free to buy the Source and check it yourself

Edit, please report exactly what your source says. As I said before, repeatedly, the epithet "marrano" is an unsubstantiated claim that was started by many of the Borgias’ contemporaries. For those interested, a very detailed source,
The Borja Family: Historiography, Legend and Literature
CATALAN HISTORICAL REVIEW, 1: 63-79 (2008) Institut d’Estudis Catalans

[basics]

OK, let's assume that everyone who worships in the Jewish tradition, acts according to its Law and is circumcised is to all intents and purposes Jewish what is wrong with that? Are they not entitled to life just like anyone else? Why should they or anyone have to hide in another religion just so that they can survive? I know that it happens in all walks of life but why is it so prevalent to the Jews in particular?

[Ludicus]

why is it so prevalent to the Jews in particular?

Short, simplistic answer- probably because most people are willing to tolerate a minority if it lives in poverty.Who knows.

[fkizz]

Ludicus when every single of your posts is you saying you don't respect my sources as credible despite saying their authors being good Historians, how can there even be debate?

When you imply a priori that nothing on earth will convince you of the opposite and it's useless to even try to present you a different angle what's the point? You've made your choice what to believe already, regardless of what is shown.

A Zealous Believer that Papacy having a convert formerly from Jew families is basically impossible to have happened... Will remain a Zealous Believer of such. If there's pro-debate mindset shown rather than tantrum in the posts it may be re-discussed, but for now it's case closed to not waste time.

OK, let's assume that everyone who worships in the Jewish tradition, acts according to its Law and is circumcised is to all intents and purposes Jewish what is wrong with that? Are they not entitled to life just like anyone else? Why should they or anyone have to hide in another religion just so that they can survive? I know that it happens in all walks of life but why is it so prevalent to the Jews in particular?

Judaism as it was practiced 3000 years ago is dead, but they do carry ancient traditions that average materialist minded person can't or won't understand, project malice to it, which will add fuel to them being a minorities already.

Some of the jews will get embittered by such routine reactions and not act the best in return, and the cycle is born.

[Ludicus]

Ludicus when every single of your posts is you saying you don't respect my sources.

Why do you refuse to quote your presumed source?

fkizz

You've made your choice what to believe already

Indeed, but that's another question. Remember what you said - "was Pope Alexander VI a marrano or not? Even Atlas of Jewish Civilization says: Yes"

fkizz

... regardless of what is shown

It depends of what is shown.
Are you sure that the Atlas says that the Pope Alexander VI was a Marrano? it's a very simple question. Show us.

[fkizz]

You showed you had acess to a digital copy of the Atlas in English in your first post against me, from 1990 edition and in English. You do quotes all the time, what's stopping you now?

Now I don't mind doing favours, but obliging debate standards to someone who constantly and obviously shows no respect simply because I said a Jew converting to Christianism and reaching Papacy wouldn't be an Historical Impossibility, shows there is something else to assess here asides from debate.

Is this a Spam Feud or a Debate? What's the point of "convincing" someone Proudly Zealous of the other point of view?

Again, Sources are page 73 and 64 of Jewish Atlas Portuguese version.
This is a buy-able Atlas and you showed to have acess to a 1990s English version for free using some University acess code, so what's the fuss all about? Obviously it's a (personal?) feud, not a debate.

[Ludicus]

You showed you had acess to a digital copy of the Atlas in English

Not true. I just provided a link to the book review, by Benny Kraut, University of Cincinnati
The Illustrated Atlas of Jewish Civilization: 4000 Years of Jewish History
----
fkizz

Sources are page 73 and 64 of Jewish Atlas Portuguese version

You've already said that before.
After patiently asking (repeatedly) you to quote the Atlas, I can only come to the logical conclusion that you may have misunderstood your source (I'm not going to say that you are lying).
Show us that I'm wrong. Page 73/64 did you say? where it says that Alexander VI was a marrano?

[fkizz]

Show us that I'm wrong. Page 73/64 did you say? where it says that Alexander VI was a marrano?

You showed no patience or self restraint whatsoever, when being challenged with a different point of view, neither respect to debate opponent, neither calm of mind, making it closer to a feud than a debate..

Regardless there is something more spicy than Pope Alexander VI there, but keeping it focused; it does say that "Pope Alexander VI was of Marrano descent, aswell as a St. Francis of Borgia").
This for page 73.
Page 64-65, is about Jews fleeing Spain to go to Portugal under D.João II, but the refugee displayed ending with D Manuel I enacting clausules to expell all jews from Portugal in coin of exchange to marry Infanta Isabel from Spain. (this add not in Atlas, but said woman was set to be his son D.João III bride. He took away his son's wife while enacting bigger inquisition decrees at the same time what a "King")

Well after you convert technically you can't be a Marrano anymore, given you're no longer a Jew. Pope Alexander VI thought otherwise and that's the whole point when discussing persecutions of New-Christians, which I tried to expand upon before the butthurt borderline spam.

Why the heck is Pope Alexander VI Ethnicity/Religion of origin that important to you? And if it is, why haven't you bought yet the Atlas?
After reading all those books you claim you do, haven't you figured out yet history has plenty of odd curiosities?

[basics]

I can visualise across the ancient world trade being carried on meaning that possibly hundreds of thousands from all over settled in lands that they were but business tourists and many Jews were just like that. What I fail to understand is that history does not reflect the antagonism that this nation's peoples encountered and is still encountering today just because they are Jews. Am I wrong here?

[Ludicus]

[QUOTE=fkizz;15236611]Y
Regardless there is something more spicy than Pope Alexander VI there, but keeping it focused; it does say that "Pope Alexander VI was of Marrano descent, aswell as a St. Francis of Borgia").
This for page 73./QUOTE]
Finally...thank you.
I would like to add that (it's a question of intellectual honesty) that my friend Iskar has sent me a message saying the same.Quoting,

I followed your discussion with fkizz about Alexander VI. The book does not seem to be available online, but google books does yield a snippet on page 73 saying "The Borgias, who produced, among other notables, Pope Alexander VI and St. Francis Borgia, were descended from Spanish marranos"

-----
-----
Anyway, as I said before, all of this is factually incorrect, an unsubstantiated claim made by his enemies,according to numerous sources- already cited- namely
The Borja Family: Historiography, Legend and Literature
CATALAN HISTORICAL REVIEW, 1: 63-79 (2008) Institut d’Estudis Catalans
Page 73/74,
The Legend

So far I have dealt with facts. But their interpretation isanother matter and can give rise to a parallel history,based on imagination and fantasy, which seeks to explainevents that are out of the ordinary or difficult to believe.

....Towards 1600 Alexander VI’s deal with the Devil becamepart of the second version of the legend of Faust,which appeared in a volume by the Lutheran Georg RudolfWidman, published in Hamburg in 1599. Faust,Widman claimed, was impressed by the wickedness of AlexanderVI, who had first invoked the Devil during hisstudent days in Bologna, and he further insulted the popeby branding him as a ‘Marrano’, a baptized Jew who believedin nothing. The epithet had been applied to Alexanderand his son Cèsar as early as 1493

.

And here, there is not a single mention to a Jewish origin.
La família Borja: historiografia, llegenda, tema literari-Eulàlia Duran i Grau* Institut d’estudis Catalans
(It's written in Catalan)