Fellow religionists. The non-affiliated and secular people mean our religions no harm. Why do you choose to kill them?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

It doesn't necessarily follow that there must have been an "original" Christianity. Christ himself might have had some ideas that we'd call original, but it probably does not rise to the level of a doctrine, certainly not given that he didn't write anything we can lay our hands on. The doctrinal expression of Christianity, even at its earliest sources, is open to multiple interpretations. I would strongly suspect, therefore, that the notion of a pure Christianity is an imaginary construct that bears virtually no relationship to historical Christianity. It's the illusion of age and/or originality that lends an aura of truth and/or purity to this notion of Christianity, but we have no reason to believe in any of that.

I agree with all of this but still maintain that if Christianity exists today, there had to be an original beginning to even have the name be recognized.

Whatever it looked like is not relevant to it's conception and birth, so to speak.

As to pure Christian notions and tenets, I know of none that are original to Christianity, save their Jesus sacrifice for us notion.

Regards
DL

[basics]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

So Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and Hitler and others of their creed who have killed more people than anyone else in history did so because they were good unbelievers?

[fkizz]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

So Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and Hitler and others of their creed who have killed more people than anyone else in history did so because they were good unbelievers?

I have been making this question for years without any reply. They (the listeners who think lack of religion means peace) simply shut down and reboot their system and the question goes repressed to their subconscious.

Then they go on as if those big historical pro-atheism characters never existed.

Albeit Hitler's beliefs are still fuzzy. He likely saw religion as an utilitarian tool to move the masses, on later more militaristic stages of Germany there's his talks of obvious repudiation of Christianity and wishing instead a religion that sees warrior sacrifice for the Fatherland as the greater good, like Shintoism or Islam.
Didn't stop him from using Christianity in his propaganda to get ~half a million of defectors from USSR.

[basics]

I agree with all of this but still maintain that if Christianity exists today, there had to be an original beginning to even have the name be recognized.

Whatever it looked like is not relevant to it's conception and birth, so to speak.

As to pure Christian notions and tenets, I know of none that are original to Christianity, save their Jesus sacrifice for us notion.

Regards
DL

Agnostic Christian Bishop,

Why you cannot see the connection in Genesis 1 and 2 to the Christian faith is beyond me because I can see it so clearly. When God put the garden onto the planet at the East of Eden what that showed was that there was more, much more to come, not only on the planet but from outside it. To begin with Genesis 1 concentrates on God bringing light into a dark creation making clear that He is the One who did it. Genesis 2 concentrates on the beings created and their vulnerability to outside influence and the ultimate consequence of that. From that point the mystery of the Godhead is revealed when God says that a " seed " of the woman, Eve, would arise to contend for the souls of fallen man as well as all other creation. So, from the moment God said, " Let there be light," the promise was obvious that greater was to follow and that greater thing was God coming into the world as a human to take away the sin that man had fallen into. Sadly though, you are not alone.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

So Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and Hitler and others of their creed who have killed more people than anyone else in history did so because they were good unbelievers?

Who said that? Not I.

But as a believer, your own creeds God is shown to be the worst of the worst by even using genocide on animals.

Now that is really satanic.

If you love a genocidal God for his work, you should also love those of his ilk, like those you mentioned.

You say that God said, let there be light. That would mean that where he was, all was dark and evil. Right?

You also say that he brought light to earth but ignore that he also gave us Satan and according to scripture, she is quite dark as well yet I do not see you praseing your genocidal God for that little gift.

Why not cheery picker?

Regards
DL

fkizz

Non-believers has been the minority forever.

Strange that you think the minority has manipulated the majority to have all those wars that have plagued mankind from the time religions dropped the Goddesses and voted in the Gods of war.

Rather a strange thing to intuit.

Regards
DL

[basics]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

When it comes to the phrase " genocide of animals, " what exactly are you trying to imply? I memory serves me correct the whole world's population has lived in some way off animals for food and sustenance and if any breed has become extinct there are many factors for that besides man. Animal husbandry has been a good thing for the human race.

God said that He created all things, good and evil, so I don't see why that should limit my praise or worship for Him. Of course if one is looking to moan and groan at any opportunity as you appear to do then you'll always find something. If there was no good or evil, how would you know what is good and what is evil?

[fkizz]

fkizz

Non-believers has been the minority forever.

False. Many atheistic societies exist. For example in China PRC to join the Communist Party (and upper echelons of society) you have to swear loyalty to atheism.

And cyclicaly speaking, historians have noted that periods with decline of religion, where religion is no longer mainstream, do exist.
The implication is that such happens in the decline phase of the civilization.

Strange that you think the minority has manipulated the majority to have all those wars that have plagued mankind from the time religions dropped the Goddesses and voted in the Gods of war.

Rather a strange thing to intuit.

No I don't think that. Not sure I follow here. Are you playing around with Polytheism mixed with the "Illuminati" being Polytheistic Clerics?

I will ask again, despite no reply:
What were the religions of Pol Pot, Kim Ill Sung, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

When it comes to the phrase " genocide of animals, " what exactly are you trying to imply? I memory serves me correct the whole world's population has lived in some way off animals for food and sustenance and if any breed has become extinct there are many factors for that besides man. Animal husbandry has been a good thing for the human race.

God said that He created all things, good and evil, so I don't see why that should limit my praise or worship for Him. Of course if one is looking to moan and groan at any opportunity as you appear to do then you'll always find something. If there was no good or evil, how would you know what is good and what is evil?

The animal genocide in Noah's myth is what I was referring to. You do not seem to care that your God used genocide on people so I thought you might care that he also used genocide on animals.

But hey, if you think a genocidal God should be praised, have at it. That would just show us all how you cannot discern good from evil and adore evil.

I do have a question though. If God created us good and evil as you say, then why punish us for following the evil nature he put in us. We cannot go against our natures and that punishment for following our God given nature (to you) seems like a really evil thing to me.

False. Many atheistic societies exist. For example in China PRC to join the Communist Party (and upper echelons of society) you have to swear loyalty to atheism.

And cyclicaly speaking, historians have noted that periods with decline of religion, where religion is no longer mainstream, do exist.
The implication is that such happens in the decline phase of the civilization.



No I don't think that. Not sure I follow here. Are you playing around with Polytheism mixed with the "Illuminati" being Polytheistic Clerics?

I will ask again, despite no reply:
What were the religions of Pol Pot, Kim Ill Sung, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin?

I have no idea and do not really care as my statement was that you seem to think the minority controlled the majority.

I was looking at the world in total and the fact that the religious have always been the vast majority is a historical fact.

I do agree that Godless nations have started wars but not the vast majority of wars that religions are responsible for.

Regards
DL

[basics]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

When Adam fell all creation also fell that shown by the horrors of violence not only from man but creation itself. In other words the animals which had lived peaceably with other kinds turned on them in what was a free-for-all. Now if that had just been a result of evolution then chance must be to blame but, as it being a result of Adam and Eve disbelieving God and thus disobeying Him, God didn't leave it at that for He provided a Saviour with a get out clause to save many. The thing is though that they had to repent and turn to Him once more to receive the rebirth that would seal the deal.

God didn't put us in the evil at all as man, Adam and Eve, did that for us. Of course you will object to that because you are still on the outside believing what you believe yet you still have the opportunity to seek God rather than mock Him something perhaps you wouldn't afford Him were the roles reversed.

There are only two main religions that have killed many excluding Communism which is a religion in itself arguably but I would object that Rome and Islam have not killed as many as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and others combined have. For a start the populations then were much smaller so perhaps a percentage of these would be higher but that's all.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

When Adam fell all creation also fell that shown by the horrors of violence not only from man but creation itself. In other words the animals which had lived peaceably with other kinds turned on them in what was a free-for-all. Now if that had just been a result of evolution then chance must be to blame but, as it being a result of Adam and Eve disbelieving God and thus disobeying Him, God didn't leave it at that for He provided a Saviour with a get out clause to save many. The thing is though that they had to repent and turn to Him once more to receive the rebirth that would seal the deal.

God didn't put us in the evil at all as man, Adam and Eve, did that for us. Of course you will object to that because you are still on the outside believing what you believe yet you still have the opportunity to seek God rather than mock Him something perhaps you wouldn't afford Him were the roles reversed.

There are only two main religions that have killed many excluding Communism which is a religion in itself arguably but I would object that Rome and Islam have not killed as many as Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and others combined have. For a start the populations then were much smaller so perhaps a percentage of these would be higher but that's all.

Two things come to mind that you might clear up.

Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.”

That, in effect, is man developing a moral sense.

Do you see that as a negative for us and a fall?

You might remember that the Jews interpreted their myth as man's elevation. Only later did Christians dub it a fall.

The other think pertains to you using Jesus as your scapegoat savior to get into heaven.

Please tell me what you think of the following.


Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs youhave done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them,--- is immoral.

As Ingersoll said; 'no man wouldbe fit for heaven who would consent that an innocent person should suffer forhis sin.'
Regards
DL

[fkizz]

One last try then:
What were the religions of Pol Pot, Kim Ill Sung, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin?

@GCB
Yes there has always existed a ruling class and lower classes. Does not imply ability though, you can have dumb wasteful people at ruling class and skilled efficient people at lower ones.

[basics]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

Man did not fall because he realised he had a moral sense. Man fell because he was persuaded not to believe what God said. But once he did fall did that bring him back to repentence? No, it didn't because now knowing he had sinned he couldn't get himself out of that, why? Because he was locked into it meaning that all his offspring inherited his fallen nature. Now you say that man then developed a moral nature but how can that be when Cain went on to kill his brother out of jealousy? and we read from that point on only violence was seen on the surface of the earth. Oh man might have become aware of good and evil but of the two evil was the most predominant feature of his nature. Of course it didn't mean that man went around killing everyone but violence comes in many approaches and the tendancy with that is mostly revenge of some sort. So yes, the fall was a negative for all mankind and it still is.

Concerning what the Jews thought and what God thinks were and are two different things. From creation and the fall God made possible through Jesus Christ redemption from sin, Abel being the first to be accounted righteous before God followed by many others whose names are all in the book to the Hebrews. These were people saved by the blood of Jesus Christ in advance of His coming but not in ignorance of His coming. They believed in the "seed" saving them from their sin and that "seed" is Jesus. So, Christianity began with that event with Abel because no man can be saved, made righteous before God but by the blood of Jesus Christ. So, God coming into the world as a man to die for the sins of many is immoral? How can it be immoral if He still lives? My friend, what's immoral is you trying to persuade others that it is not true.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

Man did not fall because he realised he had a moral sense. Man fell because he was persuaded not to believe what God said.

Indeed. By an entity that God put right there in Eden beside Eve with his own God given power of deception working theough Satan or the talking serpent. A power that God knew Eve could not resist.

That is a set up.

Regards
DL

[basics]

Indeed. By an entity that God put right there in Eden beside Eve with his own God given power of deception working theough Satan or the talking serpent. A power that God knew Eve could not resist.

That is a set up.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

We are part and parcel of a story about the Lord Jesus Christ. Are we important? To God yes we are because we were made in His image so that He could enjoy communion with us and us who believe on Him with Him. It's our sin that separates us from God and that decision was not God's but Adam and Eve's who could have by using their will rejected what the serpent said to them. But like you they were easily persuaded that God didn't mean what He said and they paid the price. Where was the deception on God's part? So, if you are going to continue trying to make an argument about God's character then please follow the evidence rather than pour out poorly built assessments on what is written.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

We are part and parcel of a story about the Lord Jesus Christ. Are we important? To God yes we are because we were made in His image so that He could enjoy communion with us and us who believe on Him with Him. It's our sin that separates us from God and that decision was not God's but Adam and Eve's who could have by using their will rejected what the serpent said to them. But like you they were easily persuaded that God didn't mean what He said and they paid the price. Where was the deception on God's part? So, if you are going to continue trying to make an argument about God's character then please follow the evidence rather than pour out poorly built assessments on what is written.

Your assessment is based on the supernatural and your own delusional thinking.

There is no evidence for God so what evidence are you following?

Regards
DL

[basics]

Your assessment is based on the supernatural and your own delusional thinking.

There is no evidence for God so what evidence are you following?

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

Well I think if one looks at Israel one can see the evidence for God never mind all the people who have been born again as well as those that just carry the name, but not forgetting all your own words about how evil God is is a sure reminder that you too believe there is a God. In a funny sort of way you are obsessed with Him so evidence or not you just can't leave Him alone.

Now as for my so-called delusional state let me state once more that having fallen from a building head first and only receiving a broken collar bone, having been almost run over by a railway train but not, having set out to murder someone but beaten too it by God, having lived through four major car crashes with no more than four stitches to my knee, having come through three mini strokes, six cancer ops on my bladder, four hernia ops, an aortic valve replacement and by-pass, an open gall bladder op, I know that there is a God Who has been protecting and sustaining me all through my life and still is. Now that's experience from both sides of the equation something you haven't had. It's the reason that I am still here speaking up for Him despite the increasing hostility that is trying hard to shut me up.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Gnostic Christian Bishop,

Well I think if one looks at Israel one can see the evidence for God never mind all the people who have been born again as well as those that just carry the name, but not forgetting all your own words about how evil God is is a sure reminder that you too believe there is a God. In a funny sort of way you are obsessed with Him so evidence or not you just can't leave Him alone.

I am obsesses with why intelligent people will go into intellectual and moral dissonance by belief in a supernatural God when he has shown himself, via the myth of Christianity to be such a satanic prick.

Tell us please, why would you even accept a genocidal son murderer as your God?

Now as for my so-called delusional state let me state once more that having fallen from a building head first and only receiving a broken collar bone, having been almost run over by a railway train but not, having set out to murder someone but beaten too it by God, having lived through four major car crashes with no more than four stitches to my knee, having come through three mini strokes, six cancer ops on my bladder, four hernia ops, an aortic valve replacement and by-pass, an open gall bladder op, I know that there is a God Who has been protecting and sustaining me all through my life and still is. Now that's experience from both sides of the equation something you haven't had. It's the reason that I am still here speaking up for Him despite the increasing hostility that is trying hard to shut me up.

Let me speak as if I believe your story.

Wow. If God was that busy with you and you little boo boos, it is no wonder that he did not have the time for the 10 millions of children under 10 that starve and die of other preventable cause yearly.

If you accepted all that good fortune and did not indicate to God that he has better things to do with his time, you are not even following his Golden Rule as you would have told him to go save those who really needed it.

Regards
DL

[chriscase]

Hi basics,
If your good fortune in avoiding early death and/or incarceration is evidence for the existence of God, what does that make all the cases where individuals are not so fortunate? Do they not count? Or does God not exist for them?

[basics]

Hi basics,
If your good fortune in avoiding early death and/or incarceration is evidence for the existence of God, what does that make all the cases where individuals are not so fortunate? Do they not count? Or does God not exist for them?

chriscase,

If there is one man on the planet who does not deserve to be here it is me. I cannot answer why He chose me nor can I answer why death is so prevalent even among little children. I can only speak for the fact that I am still here knowing that Christ Jesus died for my sin in my place and that one day He will return to finalise all things. If I go first then I will be with Him when He does return and that has to be much better than anything else on offer that you guys seem to hold.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

chriscase, I can only speak for the fact that I am still here knowing that Christ Jesus died for my sin in my place .

Are you saying that Jesus would go against his own bible and Jewish tradition?


Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The sonshall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear theiniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, andthe wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put todeath because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because oftheir fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.



Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The sonshall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for theiniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself,and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs youhave done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them,--- is immoral.

Basics.

If you want to convert us, stop following the poor moral tenets that you obviously know are wrong, --- thanks to those quotes, --- and follow the wisdom that they preach instead of your immoral tenet.

Regards
DL