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Thread: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

  1. #401
    boblikesoup's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2f - Updated 1st January)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    @boblikesoup

    What movement mod are you using? If you link it I can check it out in PFM, perhaps there's some undesired entries there that cause funky stuff to happen.
    On the other hand each region has a probability of having -% movement, due to "rough terrain" and the like. Perhaps that's what makes them march further than you? I'm also planning to add +% movement to each city/town tier representing how roads are improved in the region when you upgrade the city/town.

    No idea about sacking, we haven't touched any of those options so they should be more or less identical to DeI. As far as I remember this limitation is present in vanilla too... I think?

    The AI doesn't only look at relations when offering peace. The total amount of troops you have vs their amount matters too, if you are weaker than them they will be less likely to offer peace for example. I might lower the requirements in relations even further in the next patch but I think in your particular case it's the strength ratio or some other factor. I've gotten peace from factions on low green, yellow and even slightly red ones with the current relation-settings! The problem with lowering relation requirement even more is that factions you want to be at war with will spam you with peace every single turn. That's something I really hated in normal DeI before, so I upped the requirements a tad.

    You mean the "worn" layer on faction icons? Might do it in a future patch but it's not high on the priority list. To be honest I'd rather have them all without that layer as I'm sure they were quite adamant about having nice looking faction emblems back in ancient times
    The movement mod is http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eta-12-01-2017 on this page http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1-2017/&page=8
    The marches were on the southern half of Italian peninsula.


    Regarding the diplomacy, it is a war with Athens (2 regions) and Sparta (1 region) where I am Syracuse (3 regions). Maybe number of troops weight can be brought down a little and add in some relative number of regions or income weight? It just seems pretty weird that they are +84 diplomacy and fewer regions and won't make peace. They are even at war with Rome which is like 6 regions and I am a mutual enemy of.


    For the banners I also like the newer fresher ones, but it's more the contrast between the worn ones and shiny ones that seem out of place and unimmersive.

    Thanks for being so responsive and putting so much effort into this It's pretty cool too I tried playing without this mod and Carthage would never attack me in Syracuse, but then with this mod they sent in invasion that I was happy to see.

  2. #402

    Default Re: [Submod] Data Venia - Overhaul (for DeI 1.2 - Updated 24th june)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    For those who are trying to use this to play the grand campaign on Mac, for some reason this submod works for that. I have no idea why really, but it seems to at least. Here is a version for those who want to try it out that has only the startpos/script/character/faction changes in it - http://www.mediafire.com/file/trg6al...eI_submod.pack and no battle/unit/cai changes. The main idea here is to try to see whats causing it to work.

    Ygraine if this is stepping on your toes at all let me know and I will remove it. I am just curious as to what is allowing Mac users to play the grand campaign using the submod. It has to be something in the scripts or startpos.
    Hello, could you tell me please - does the mod work with the current steam mac TWR2 version?

    Following this instruction https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...et_impera_mac/, but if I edit user.script.txt game does not launch (crashes on loading)...

    Thank you for your help.

  3. #403
    Laetus
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Hello, your mod looks cool. I already test it because I like the new battles settings, supplies management,... but one thing bothered me : it's the AI aggression. I know this is the idea that the mod wants to introduce into the game. But here I find that the aggression is too important. In my Roman campaign, I had declarations of war on all sides (Venetii, Dalmatae, Ardiae, ...). So, the campaign was a real ordeal for me because I was invaded from all sides and I did not have the necessary armies to fight the invaders (which is for me also unrealistic because Venetii were at first "friends" of Rome).


    Therefore, what do you advise me to have a better gaming experience?

    Thanks in advance for your answers
    Therefore, what do you advise me to have a better gaming experience?

  4. #404

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by nackif View Post
    Hello, your mod looks cool. I already test it because I like the new battles settings, supplies management,... but one thing bothered me : it's the AI aggression. I know this is the idea that the mod wants to introduce into the game. But here I find that the aggression is too important. In my Roman campaign, I had declarations of war on all sides (Venetii, Dalmatae, Ardiae, ...). So, the campaign was a real ordeal for me because I was invaded from all sides and I did not have the necessary armies to fight the invaders (which is for me also unrealistic because Venetii were at first "friends" of Rome).


    Therefore, what do you advise me to have a better gaming experience?

    Thanks in advance for your answers
    Therefore, what do you advise me to have a better gaming experience?
    I think it's a question of personal taste. I find DV the most challenging precisely because you can't just leave your borders undefended and you have to work hard to keep your neighbours from invading you. The base DV mod is 24 TPY so you should be able to slowly build up as 100 turns is only 5 years!

    Allocate a high % of your income to diplomacy and see what happens. If you don't like the results, you can always load other submods like De AI Arbitriis first and see what that does for you.

    I have tried DeI Hardcore and it's still too easy to just wait for the AI to leave its settlements to attack their neighbours and then take their regions. The AI may be more aggressive in DV but that's better for a challenging 24 TPY mod. Good luck!

  5. #405

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Hey @Ygraine - I know you wanted to make the Arrow Towers more effective but it seems to me that the AI doesn't realise this and I am able to hold off a pretty big enemy army by sitting in my fort and letting Legolas and his boys rip the enemy army to pieces.

    Do you think you could tone them down a bit? I know to counter them with flaming arrows but the AI doesn't and gets entire units wiped out stupidly.

    Otherwise really enjoying the challenge!

  6. #406
    Laetus
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMerisi View Post
    I think it's a question of personal taste. I find DV the most challenging precisely because you can't just leave your borders undefended and you have to work hard to keep your neighbours from invading you. The base DV mod is 24 TPY so you should be able to slowly build up as 100 turns is only 5 years!

    Allocate a high % of your income to diplomacy and see what happens. If you don't like the results, you can always load other submods like De AI Arbitriis first and see what that does for you.

    I have tried DeI Hardcore and it's still too easy to just wait for the AI to leave its settlements to attack their neighbours and then take their regions. The AI may be more aggressive in DV but that's better for a challenging 24 TPY mod. Good luck!
    I'm playing 4 turns per year maybe that's why it's too difficult?
    Maybe you have another tips for me for the begin with Roma?

  7. #407

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by nackif View Post
    I'm playing 4 turns per year maybe that's why it's too difficult?
    Maybe you have another tips for me for the begin with Roma?
    I don't think that's why. In my current game, the Venetii have almost 100 units in 3 armies, all supported by 1 province. So there must be huge bonuses given to the AI either on income or upkeep or both. It's not unreasonable for a Barbarian tribe to have 30,000 men, however when they team up with Liguria who have 25,000 men, it does seem that all of this is a bit extreme.

    If it were not for the effectiveness of forts and the AI not attacking them properly by burning down the arrow towers, I would not be able to defend the northern border against their very frequent attacks.

    So my advice is to build up your economy and fortify your armies in strategic choke points so the AI is forced to attack you in your forts. The arrow towers will get half your kills, so just make sure you use the deployable barricades etc and proper defensive infantry at the entrances.

    Gradually you will defeat all the enemies, as long as you don't try to expand too quickly.

  8. #408
    Laetus
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMerisi View Post
    I don't think that's why. In my current game, the Venetii have almost 100 units in 3 armies, all supported by 1 province. So there must be huge bonuses given to the AI either on income or upkeep or both. It's not unreasonable for a Barbarian tribe to have 30,000 men, however when they team up with Liguria who have 25,000 men, it does seem that all of this is a bit extreme.

    If it were not for the effectiveness of forts and the AI not attacking them properly by burning down the arrow towers, I would not be able to defend the northern border against their very frequent attacks.

    So my advice is to build up your economy and fortify your armies in strategic choke points so the AI is forced to attack you in your forts. The arrow towers will get half your kills, so just make sure you use the deployable barricades etc and proper defensive infantry at the entrances.

    Gradually you will defeat all the enemies, as long as you don't try to expand too quickly.
    Ok i'll give it a try later. When you're saying build up economy, it's improve your income ?

  9. #409

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by nackif View Post
    Ok i'll give it a try later. When you're saying build up economy, it's improve your income ?
    Yes try to spend as little as possible on armies and instead invest in anything that increases wealth.

    I'm now far enough into my campaign in DV that I think the mod needs some re-balancing. Forts are far too strong and the AI gets too big of a bonus allowing it to raise huge armies very early on. In my most recent fort battle the Venetii deployed 13,000 men in 2 waves. I barricaded 2 entrances and put defensive troops at the 3rd. I ended up killing 9,000+ Venetii, but my troops only inflicted 2,500 of those. So the rest are coming from the arrow towers and friendly fire. The barricades are also much stronger in DV than in DeI so it takes a long time for enemy units to break them down. Again, they don't use their bowmen to burn anything.

    All in all it feels incoherent with the stated purpose of the mod to rely on forts against a very stupid AI and massive enemy numbers. Yes the Romans built forts all over their empire and they were the critical factor in defeating the Gauls at Alesia, however after 4 of these fort battles where the AI blobs its troops in a mass at one entrance and the arrow tower/machine guns rip them to pieces makes the mod unplayable for me.

    Yes I could just not fortify, however there comes a point where because everyone but Carthage declares war on you, no matter how much you gift to your neighbors to get a trade agreement, you have to rely on fortifications and the whole experience degenerates into one heroic victory after another versus the same stupid AI tactics. Once you see Phyrrus suicide his elephants into caltrops on repeated charges into the back of his elite Sarrissa troops stuffed in a blob in front of one fort entrance while heavy machinegun arrow towers obliterate them, you just don't want to continue.

    The modders have done a great job in making this mod challenging in so many aspects and I did enjoy the first 100 turns or so, however overpowered forts vs stupid AI and one barbarian region supporting 4 x 30+ unit armies after 50 turns is making DV formulaic.

    Rebalance the forts, don't give the barbarian factions such huge early bonuses allowing them to recruit enormous armies, and it will be a much better mod.

    BTW I use Cultural Tension and De AI Arbitriis and load those before DV. I may remove DAIA as it is possibly what causes the DOW from everyone but Carthage, but I won't go back to DV unless these imbalances are adjusted. Maybe I'm doing something wrong like not spending enough to get either the Venetii or Liguria to be friendly, however I have given 1k gifts 4 turns in a row and none of those gifts even show up in the diplomacy opinion score.

  10. #410
    Ygraine's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by nackif View Post
    Hello, your mod looks cool. I already test it because I like the new battles settings, supplies management,... but one thing bothered me : it's the AI aggression. I know this is the idea that the mod wants to introduce into the game. But here I find that the aggression is too important. In my Roman campaign, I had declarations of war on all sides (Venetii, Dalmatae, Ardiae, ...). So, the campaign was a real ordeal for me because I was invaded from all sides and I did not have the necessary armies to fight the invaders (which is for me also unrealistic because Venetii were at first "friends" of Rome).


    Therefore, what do you advise me to have a better gaming experience?

    Thanks in advance for your answers
    Therefore, what do you advise me to have a better gaming experience?
    Hi! Some factions are less liked than others, so naturally they will have a harder start. One suggestion is that you invite others to join your wars early on, before they declare on you. That way you'll both get help with your enemies and your other borders will be safe.
    For example I tried a Pontic campaign a few weeks ago, since Pontus has a hard start. I pretty much lost the campaign after around 100 turns due my few allies losing and my enemies gaining in strength. I started a new Pontic-campaign and it played out very differently due to me using diplomacy more early on. The key is the "join war"-diplomacy option.
    The AI generally wants to have at least one war at some point, and they do ask each other to join wars too. If you start with one enemy, they might ask their neighbours to attack you. So be sure to be the first one to ask


    Quote Originally Posted by boblikesoup View Post
    The movement mod is http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eta-12-01-2017 on this page http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1-2017/&page=8
    The marches were on the southern half of Italian peninsula.


    Regarding the diplomacy, it is a war with Athens (2 regions) and Sparta (1 region) where I am Syracuse (3 regions). Maybe number of troops weight can be brought down a little and add in some relative number of regions or income weight? It just seems pretty weird that they are +84 diplomacy and fewer regions and won't make peace. They are even at war with Rome which is like 6 regions and I am a mutual enemy of.


    For the banners I also like the newer fresher ones, but it's more the contrast between the worn ones and shiny ones that seem out of place and unimmersive.

    Thanks for being so responsive and putting so much effort into this It's pretty cool too I tried playing without this mod and Carthage would never attack me in Syracuse, but then with this mod they sent in invasion that I was happy to see.

    I checked the mod and the table has an identical name to the one used in DV, so it will overwrite all settings there unfortunately. The table name should preferably be custom and only include the movement-changes (right now it includes all other stuff too). And the difference between movement is only 5%, so you will barely notice it. I'll poke the author about this, perhaps he'll change it so it'll be more compatible to most other mods.

    I will have to play a few more hours to take note of diplomacy again before making any changes! But I suspect that changing how the AI weights in military power can be tweaked for better (or worse)!

    Thank you! I originally made this to fit my own preferences, but I'm happy others also like it!


    @MrMerisi

    You'll have to blame CA for that. Fort-towers and barbarian city-towers use the same table - that means if I nerf one then both get nerfed. I want towers in sieges to dish out lots of damage, to make the attacker lose a lot of troops unless they use siege engines or wait them out.

    I recently nerfed forts so they now always cost 100% movement points. Before that they costed between 25% to 75% movement (depending on what culture you were playing), and before that they used normal DeI values.
    Another nerf was that I increased ignition damage on towers so they burn their own fort-walls a lot faster when firing into the "blob melee", thus opening the walls more for the attacker. Unfortunately there's some "AoE"-effect when walls collapse killing units all around them. I have no idea where to even find this in the database (if it even exists there) and how to turn it off. The possibilities for editing forts is very limited due to how CA programmed them.

    One way I could nerf them more is to give a stance-penalty when you activate it (for example increased upkeep for the army or something similar). But other than that there's really not much else to do here. I simply suggest not to use it all the time, because yes.. Forts are OP, they were always OP - including in both vanilla and DeI. If you have any idea other than nerfing towers (since I don't want barbarian city-towers to be useless in sieges) I'm all ears.

    I personally rarely use forts, only when the odds are really stacked against me and I'm not standing in a region where I'm starving/about to starve due to cut supply lines. But most of my battles are on open ground.


    Barbarian AI got the same bonus as all others, nothing special there. All AIs get +2 base recruitment bonus per turn over the player in DV (it used to be +3, but I've nerfed it down one step). If I remember correctly in Very Hard Vanilla and/or DeI the AI gets +1 base recruitment bonus.
    (2nd position - Gameplay Mods-category - 2016 Modding Awards.)

  11. #411

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    @MrMerisi

    You'll have to blame CA for that. Fort-towers and barbarian city-towers use the same table - that means if I nerf one then both get nerfed. I want towers in sieges to dish out lots of damage, to make the attacker lose a lot of troops unless they use siege engines or wait them out.

    I recently nerfed forts so they now always cost 100% movement points. Before that they costed between 25% to 75% movement (depending on what culture you were playing), and before that they used normal DeI values.
    Another nerf was that I increased ignition damage on towers so they burn their own fort-walls a lot faster when firing into the "blob melee", thus opening the walls more for the attacker. Unfortunately there's some "AoE"-effect when walls collapse killing units all around them. I have no idea where to even find this in the database (if it even exists there) and how to turn it off. The possibilities for editing forts is very limited due to how CA programmed them.

    One way I could nerf them more is to give a stance-penalty when you activate it (for example increased upkeep for the army or something similar). But other than that there's really not much else to do here. I simply suggest not to use it all the time, because yes.. Forts are OP, they were always OP - including in both vanilla and DeI. If you have any idea other than nerfing towers (since I don't want barbarian city-towers to be useless in sieges) I'm all ears.

    I personally rarely use forts, only when the odds are really stacked against me and I'm not standing in a region where I'm starving/about to starve due to cut supply lines. But most of my battles are on open ground.


    Barbarian AI got the same bonus as all others, nothing special there. All AIs get +2 base recruitment bonus per turn over the player in DV (it used to be +3, but I've nerfed it down one step). If I remember correctly in Very Hard Vanilla and/or DeI the AI gets +1 base recruitment bonus.
    Thanks for your reply bud. I didn't know settlement towers and fort towers were based on the same lethality. I try not to use them unless it's exactly where I would station a frontier fort with a garrison type composition.

    How are the Venetii able to maintain 100+ units with 1 province?

    A couple of requests:

    1) Make some of the building upgrades take a bit longer (like upgrading Rome to Rome II) like DeI hardcore does
    2) Make the ZOC a bit larger. It's very frustrating to watch the AI with long campaign movement bonuses go right around your superior forces who would IRL move to cut them off.
    3) Reduce some of the ridiculously long campaign movement bonus that Pyrrhos seems to have. Literally he can land from a fleet and can march from Taras to Beneventum in the same turn using the coast and not the road.

  12. #412

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    In the new version is there any way to play with only the lord/general skills for DEI and or disable the data venia ones that make the tree stick off screen?

  13. #413
    Ygraine's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMerisi View Post
    Thanks for your reply bud. I didn't know settlement towers and fort towers were based on the same lethality. I try not to use them unless it's exactly where I would station a frontier fort with a garrison type composition.

    How are the Venetii able to maintain 100+ units with 1 province?

    A couple of requests:

    1) Make some of the building upgrades take a bit longer (like upgrading Rome to Rome II) like DeI hardcore does
    2) Make the ZOC a bit larger. It's very frustrating to watch the AI with long campaign movement bonuses go right around your superior forces who would IRL move to cut them off.
    3) Reduce some of the ridiculously long campaign movement bonus that Pyrrhos seems to have. Literally he can land from a fleet and can march from Taras to Beneventum in the same turn using the coast and not the road.
    Army caps are increased in DV since I hated the artificial cap. Your economy, population classes and supply status should be the deciding factors for how many troops you can field. It also allows you to have city governor-generals in many cities and towns.

    I can give you instructions on how to increase building-times if you want, it's a fairly easy fix with PFM. Right now there are no plans on a separate version with that since I lack time.

    The ZoC was decreased because it annoyed me how cities could block your army from marching past it. Sometimes it blocked half the region, due to mountains/rivers nearby. When I lowered ZoC, I increased reinforcement range to compensate. There's not much here to do either - if I increase ZoC more then cities and towns will have a stupidly large block-zone since they don't have separate values for armies and towns/cities. Thanks CA...

    The movement is the same for everyone. In the case you describe, they use the special naval double fleet stance and the way the game works is that the movement from naval double-stance isn't restricted once they step on land. The AI will sometimes "abuse" this and be able to move quite a bit on land too, but only on the turn they make the naval landing. But if I remember correctly, they always end up in "patrol stance" once they are at land - so it means you can ambush them on that turn. The only solution to this that I'm aware of is to disable naval double stance completely.


    Quote Originally Posted by moffe View Post
    In the new version is there any way to play with only the lord/general skills for DEI and or disable the data venia ones that make the tree stick off screen?
    There will be a big update soon with properly working skill-trees!
    Last edited by Ygraine; January 14, 2018 at 04:30 PM.
    (2nd position - Gameplay Mods-category - 2016 Modding Awards.)

  14. #414

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    Army caps are increased in DV since I hated the artificial cap. Your economy, population classes and supply status should be the deciding factors for how many troops you can field. It also allows you to have city governor-generals in many cities and towns.

    I can give you instructions on how to increase building-times if you want, it's a fairly easy fix with PFM. Right now there are no plans on a separate version with that since I lack time.

    The ZoC was decreased because it annoyed me how cities could block your army from marching past it. Sometimes it blocked half the region, due to mountains/rivers nearby. When I lowered ZoC, I increased reinforcement range to compensate. There's not much here to do either - if I increase ZoC more then cities and towns will have a stupidly large block-zone since they don't have separate values for armies and towns/cities. Thanks CA...

    The movement is the same for everyone. In the case you describe, they use the special naval double fleet stance and the way the game works is that the movement from naval double-stance isn't restricted once they step on land. The AI will sometimes "abuse" this and be able to move quite a bit on land too, but only on the turn they make the naval landing. But if I remember correctly, they always end up in "patrol stance" once they are at land - so it means you can ambush them on that turn. The only solution to this that I'm aware of is to disable naval double stance completely.




    There will be a big update soon with properly working skill-trees!
    Cheers buddy.

    1) I'm not concerned about the unit cap I just would like to know how they can "afford" to pay the recruitment and upkeep of so many units so early in the game. Venetii have 1 province and 100 units. Doesn't add up. Does the AI not have to pay for units? EDIT: I see they pay between 10% and 30% of Human Player unit upkeep. I reduced their per turn income boost from 3k to 2k and they still produce decent sized armies but not the 100 units within 20 turns spam that forces me as the Rome player to use OP forts.

    2) Please let me know which tables - I know how to do a little bit with PFM. EDIT: found them.

    3) I already changed the ZoC from your default 1.5 to 2 and it seems like a good balance.

    4) AI units landing in port and getting a marching boost are able to attack settlements on the same turn. It would be nice if they couldn't as you end up with these lightning strikes. EDIT: this is a real problem as the AI is landing and marching very far in one turn and also attacking.

    5) Can you also tell me in PFM where I can tone down the arrow towers? I don't want to nerf them just make them a little less potent so I can get the benefit of fortifications without using it as a cheat. EDIT: found them. I toned down the arrow towers in the projectiles_tables and it feels pretty balanced now and forts are no longer getting 90% of the kills. Do you know what the difference is between arrow_tower and arrow_tower_upgraded?

    6) Is there any way to toggle on/off the phalanx formation? They get left behind when moving formations if this is locked "on."

    Overall it's a great challenge. As soon as I had to fight 3 tough battles to conquer Etruria it was going to be a lot of fun! Keep up the good work.

    EDIT: The Venetii seem scripted/predisposed to declare war within 20 turns no matter what. I experimented and gave them 1k gold 10 times over the course of 20 turns and built the relationship to +80, offered to join war vs Daorsi plus 1k gold for no demand in return, and they declared war on me the very next turn. I am running DAIA and Cultural Tensio but I don't see these as causing the issue.
    Last edited by MrMerisi; January 15, 2018 at 03:20 PM.

  15. #415
    Greek strategos's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    There will be a big update soon with properly working skill-trees!
    You got us intrigued. Any hints for the big changes ?

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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMerisi View Post
    Cheers buddy.

    1) I'm not concerned about the unit cap I just would like to know how they can "afford" to pay the recruitment and upkeep of so many units so early in the game. Venetii have 1 province and 100 units. Doesn't add up. Does the AI not have to pay for units? EDIT: I see they pay between 10% and 30% of Human Player unit upkeep. I reduced their per turn income boost from 3k to 2k and they still produce decent sized armies but not the 100 units within 20 turns spam that forces me as the Rome player to use OP forts.

    2) Please let me know which tables - I know how to do a little bit with PFM. EDIT: found them.

    3) I already changed the ZoC from your default 1.5 to 2 and it seems like a good balance.

    4) AI units landing in port and getting a marching boost are able to attack settlements on the same turn. It would be nice if they couldn't as you end up with these lightning strikes. EDIT: this is a real problem as the AI is landing and marching very far in one turn and also attacking.

    5) Can you also tell me in PFM where I can tone down the arrow towers? I don't want to nerf them just make them a little less potent so I can get the benefit of fortifications without using it as a cheat. EDIT: found them. I toned down the arrow towers in the projectiles_tables and it feels pretty balanced now and forts are no longer getting 90% of the kills. Do you know what the difference is between arrow_tower and arrow_tower_upgraded?

    6) Is there any way to toggle on/off the phalanx formation? They get left behind when moving formations if this is locked "on."

    Overall it's a great challenge. As soon as I had to fight 3 tough battles to conquer Etruria it was going to be a lot of fun! Keep up the good work.

    EDIT: The Venetii seem scripted/predisposed to declare war within 20 turns no matter what. I experimented and gave them 1k gold 10 times over the course of 20 turns and built the relationship to +80, offered to join war vs Daorsi plus 1k gold for no demand in return, and they declared war on me the very next turn. I am running DAIA and Cultural Tensio but I don't see these as causing the issue.
    Hello,


    I tested the mod and I have the same observations as you. I was forced to use forts with good defensive units and AI sometimes lose 4000-5000 men while I only lost a few hundred (on a total of 1000-1500 soldiers). I have only tested the gameplay of Rome, which is already quite difficult at the start even with DeI "Vanilla".
    Perhaps with Carthage or the Ptolemaic dynasty there will be a "more bearable" challenge because they already have strong empires and fewer potential enemies compared to Rome who is seeking to expand.

    I find it really a pity to use this kind of mechanics to counter an AI that I find "stupidly" too aggressive (with too numerous armies) in this case.


    In addition, I think that as MrMerisi said, bonuses given to factions are far too high. Even me who is a frequent player (attention, I'm really not a pro-gamer) Total War, I can not start a good campaign, because the bonuses (especially the reduced upkeep and financial benefits) to the AI are huge. Spamming armies is also disturbing. So I really can not compete, even when i'm first building a stronger economy.

    Finally,
    I would like to know if there is a way to "soften" the campaign and reduce aggressiveness and AI bonuses quite well without compromising the other changes you have made.

    However, I find your mod very good and we feel the hard work that is behind to provide a better gaming experience. I particularly love the changes in buildings (squalor, public order, ...), battle mechanics, chnages to the agents,...

  17. #417

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by nackif View Post
    Hello,


    I tested the mod and I have the same observations as you. I was forced to use forts with good defensive units and AI sometimes lose 4000-5000 men while I only lost a few hundred (on a total of 1000-1500 soldiers). I have only tested the gameplay of Rome, which is already quite difficult at the start even with DeI "Vanilla".
    Perhaps with Carthage or the Ptolemaic dynasty there will be a "more bearable" challenge because they already have strong empires and fewer potential enemies compared to Rome who is seeking to expand.

    I find it really a pity to use this kind of mechanics to counter an AI that I find "stupidly" too aggressive (with too numerous armies) in this case.


    In addition, I think that as MrMerisi said, bonuses given to factions are far too high. Even me who is a frequent player (attention, I'm really not a pro-gamer) Total War, I can not start a good campaign, because the bonuses (especially the reduced upkeep and financial benefits) to the AI are huge. Spamming armies is also disturbing. So I really can not compete, even when i'm first building a stronger economy.

    Finally,
    I would like to know if there is a way to "soften" the campaign and reduce aggressiveness and AI bonuses quite well without compromising the other changes you have made.

    However, I find your mod very good and we feel the hard work that is behind to provide a better gaming experience. I particularly love the changes in buildings (squalor, public order, ...), battle mechanics, chnages to the agents,...
    Hey Nackif,

    I modded some of the DV tables to balance out what I think is an unbalanced starting position for Rome.

    Changes (cc @Ygraine FYI):

    - Reduced AI bonus from 3k per turn gold to 2k per turn. That's roughly 40 less units (1 full stack on 41 unit armies setting) they can maintain, so early game I will leave it like that then after 50 turns I will add 500 and after 100 turns I will add another 500. Otherwise the Rome player is either forced to do silly things like pay the Venetii 1k per turn every turn and risk them attacking anyway even when +100 Friendly, or use forts which is silly. Often the gift payments don't even register (probably a bug) positive points with them.

    - Reduced the effectiveness of Arrow Towers enough to reduce the average fort kills by arrows from 4k to 2k. Hopefully this won't make Barbarian settlements too easy to capture - but since I burn down towers with archers this isn't an issue for me. Will see what happens with the "upgraded" arrow towers in stone cities, which I did not change any stats for.

    - Reduced the durability of Barricades so attackers can break through in half the time, which means they can actually get into the fort before being destroyed by arrows from the towers. After 3-4 mins they are through the barricades and fighting your guys, and lose around 30% of their men from the arrows, so you still need several really good defensive units to hold a fort plus roaming cavalry to hit their ranged troops or those will destroy your defenders (8 x skirmishers can kill 3 full units given enough time).

    - Increased Zone of Control from 1.5 to 2.5. This makes it possible to go around cities but also possible to stop the AI from running around you and exploiting the fleet movement bonus to land and march and attack over an entire province in the same turn.

    ---

    So the way I look at it, I'm not a "pro" TW player either but I can easily beat the AI on DeI Hardcore, which isn't saying much, but it's enough ability that I believe that Rome is in an ahistorically precarious situation early game in this mod. The math is very simple:

    Venetii: 3k bonus per turn = +100 units. 6 recruitment slots x 12 turns = 72 new units, or nearly 2 full stacks.
    Ligurae: same

    So as Rome you can get maybe 60 units total by 12 turns on 24 TPY, without spending gold on diplomacy or cities, and you start with 2 x 4-unit armies vs Epirus who has at least 2 x 11-unit armies which they quickly build up to 3 x 20+ unit armies.

    That means once you have beaten Etruria and the rebellions that follow, you face anywhere from 120 to 170 units on two main fronts, plus Syracuse who sometimes invade Cosentia.

    If there is a Rome player who can beat all those armies without using the uberforts, I would really appreciate knowing how you do it!
    Last edited by MrMerisi; January 16, 2018 at 12:07 PM.

  18. #418

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    hi. is it just for me that scythed chariots causing ctd when loading a custom battle. did not try in campaign. in dei they work fine. if it is problem with dv, could you tell me how to fix it with pfm. and i see you guys making some changes, could someone upload it so i could use it as well
    btw, amazing submod. to difficult for my taste, but trying to adjust. it does make the game much more fun, just trying to survive the onslaught oh, i do get occasional ctd on campaign, but after loading last save it goes on. just sometimes after a few turns its ctd again on loading turns
    Last edited by trenktas; January 16, 2018 at 01:03 PM.

  19. #419
    Laetus
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    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Hey bro,
    I appreciate your feedback. Did you use Pack File Manager and modify the Data Venia.pack file?


    In any case, with your little adjustments the beginning of the Roman campaign will be less hardcore. In the state, Rome was beaten and invaded after a while or could not expand adequately because, as you said, the precarious ahistoric situation early game and the insane bonuses given to AI.

    Thanks for your tweaks, i will try this

  20. #420

    Default Re: [Overhaul Submod] "Data Venia" (for DeI 1.2.2g - Updated 11th January)

    Quote Originally Posted by nackif View Post
    Hey bro,
    I appreciate your feedback. Did you use Pack File Manager and modify the Data Venia.pack file?


    In any case, with your little adjustments the beginning of the Roman campaign will be less hardcore. In the state, Rome was beaten and invaded after a while or could not expand adequately because, as you said, the precarious ahistoric situation early game and the insane bonuses given to AI.

    Thanks for your tweaks, i will try this
    Avec plaisir!

    I modded the DV pack file.

    One thing I didn't mention is that I doubled all of the build times for every building. It didn't make sense to me that on 24TPY you could expand Roma in 6 turns )

    Perhaps Ygraine would be OK with me sharing my modded version with you - send him a PM?

    The main thing is to make sure you exit the game and mod back in the increases in base income (GDP) for the AI so they can continue to present a challenge to you. 1k gold at 25 Gold per unit is 40 units, so giving them 3k vs 2k in the beginning gives them a free stack of 40 units. Do you play with 41 units enabled?

    My only concern with DV is that the new combat work being done by KAM will be so good that DV battles will be 2 generations behind. They are still challenging for sure, but from what I am seeing with KAM's latest work, we will be missing out on a lot of innovative stuff if we stay with DV.

    So...I am considering sending Ygraine a PM to see if he will allow a Campaign AI only submod so we can have the BAI of KAM and the CAI of DV, best of both worlds!

    I also use Cultural Tensio and De AI Arbitriis loaded before DV, and that makes things even harder I think.

    I am considering modding things further to give Rome a slightly larger starting army (with some Levy troops) and better relations with the Venetii which they had historically.

    I seriously would love to know how anyone can play DV as Rome without changing anything and make it past 50 turns without using any forts.

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