Japanese and nazi-chic

[Cyclops]

Could you please stop routinely strawmanning me.

? I agree with much of your argument and I've picked out some points to toss around.

They did create the chance for Indonesia independence by fighting off the Dutch, and it was on behalf of Japanese Empire interests, as I said above. But by weakening their former Dutch colonial master, Indonesia could have a violent counter punch at weakened Netherlands.

I think that's a weak argument, Nazi Germany played a role in creating Israel and Napoleon helped create modern Germany but their role is not condoned. The US was the key driver in decolonising Africa and Asia when the UK wanted to Metternich the whole thing (ie pretend its still working). The Japanese were looking to be the Dutch as you mention with your pint about teachers.

Also it's a lose-lose game to attack Japanese Imperialism, given its model was based and partially copied off France/UK/Prussia/USA methods of power projection and Industrialization.

Its a good point that the Japanese imperial playbook was essentially the British one, but with specific reference to the middle of the 20th century there's a particular blot on the Japanese record that exceeds the British at their worst, at a period when the Japanese were associated with the Nazis somewhat tenuously.

Look, on Imperialism, the Japanese took Western Empires as its teacher/references. That's why it's lose-lose to enter your game. Lets be smart instead.

With regard to the OP its not smart to take a "well there's two sides to this story" this story as you correctly argue above is multifaceted. Its a gross oversimplification to vaguely state the IJN and IJA are owed for their liberation of colonies in the 1930's and 1940's when they were not. More to the point while you and I are constrained by reasons of space to somewhat simplify our arguments the Japanese education system is not, so there is no excuse for the whitewashing of their past. Western history is hotly contested in the Western system by SJWs UMCs (unemployed militia clowns that feature in Iron Brig's posts) DNC, RNC, commies and many others.

I'm very happy to pass my own judgement on Japanese Imperialism (and on Western Imperialisms).

I do find the point about cutification a very relevant one. Here your point largely holds good, as there are "cute" western representations that mock cultures. Once again there are fringe responses allowed "we are a culture not a costume and this is not OLK" memes etc. but the basic reality is people wil costume for fun without taking on board the implicit meanings other cultures associate. The little boy collection lollies dressed as a legionary is not condoning the massacres at Numantia or Masada.

Then Moderators, Staff, and Citizens should refrain from intentionally creating bigoted topics....

He is indicating the band are morons, how would it be best to describe them? Serious question, its fair enough if you feel like the thread conveys bigotry when he's making appoint about ignorance.

I do find Japan cops stick and is parodied in Western society, mostly as sick and deviant alternating with awe-struck admiration.

[Copperknickers II]

The lack of knowledge in Asia about Nazi Germany is rather scary. On the one hand, some people are always going to idolise the Nazis because people who have never experienced persecution or war always romanticise it and glorify historical leaders: after all few people today talk about the atrocities committed by Genghis Khan or Timur or the Crusaders or the Mughal emperors and already for my own generation Hitler is a mere historical figure whose direct relevance is fading quickly. On the other hand, the Greater Holocaust was absolutely incomparable to any other historical event, except perhaps the Khmer Rouge period and to a lesser extent the Rwandan genocide - it was an attempt to socially engineer society through genocide, history's only literal application of social Darwinism. For this reason, it is different to all other manmade famines and genocides and wars throughout history, and it should be learned by people everywhere in the world.

[fkizz]

? I agree with much of your argument and I've picked out some points to toss around.

Ok sorry I've noticed Australians do write in a different manner from British or Americans

Its a good point that the Japanese imperial playbook was essentially the British one, but with specific reference to the middle of the 20th century there's a particular blot on the Japanese record that exceeds the British at their worst, at a period when the Japanese were associated with the Nazis somewhat tenuously.

British were welcoming of Hitler before he started to annex Czechoslovaquia and going full "Round 2" mode. Even Royal family members practiced Roman Salute (now known as Nazi salute) for future diplomatic meetings. European Nations in General didn't care about Hitler until he started warmongering.

Also as Rubicon pointed out most of advisors to Japanese Imperial Court were Prussians, though I'd say to an Asian "these industrialized western imperialists all look the same".

More to the point while you and I are constrained by reasons of space to somewhat simplify our arguments the Japanese education system is not, so there is no excuse for the whitewashing of their past.

Well I agree. But you do know it was not Germans or Nazi Germany whom invented Concentration Camps, right?

I do find Japan cops stick and is parodied in Western society, mostly as sick and deviant alternating with awe-struck admiration.

Meh. We accidentally make references offensive to Asians that we are not aware about. The center of the world isn't the West anymore. Two biggest GDP nations are in Far East.

[Garbarsardar]

Now the topic being the ignorance of history by Japanese teens and not only and the hilarious and potentially dangerous consequences of it, do you have anything to argue about?

[RubiconDecision]

Now the topic being the ignorance of history by Japanese teens and not only and the hilarious and potentially dangerous consequences of it, do you have anything to argue about?[/QUOTE]

Hell Garb, I have no issue with the topic of idiotic teens doing things like posting Che Guevara posters and wearing clothing without realizing the political history of Communism, so why would I care that you want to discuss the Japanese teens acting incredibly foolish and blithely ignorant of Nazi history?

My issue is this total lack of decorum with the title only. All you're going to do is pull out the same bigoted posts we have from the same folks who ALWAYS latch onto every Japanese Imperial topic for the last five years.

But go ahead for it's a historic biannual event on the forum. I guess it's typically worse like Japanese skulls taken in the Pacific Theatre or Nanking or the Comfort Women. All unbalanced and ironically just as blithely ignorant of the American culpability in all of those, like ignoring the American atrocities of not taking Japanese prisoners, bayoneting surrendering Japanese soldiers, killing Japanese wounded and medical staff in the Pacific islands, Americans and Australian servicemen using the same Comfort women as prostitutes and EVEN hiring more, grossly inflating the Chinese casualties of Nanking the documented numbers found by 50 Chinese historians in 2005 were documented to be 13,000 (a number that to this day remains the same in their many volume series). Ignoring that FDR started the Flying Tigers and they were in China before Pearl Harbor and he restricted Admiral Kimmel from knowing the attack was coming.

Just be freakin' balanced is all I am asking. Labeling the Japanese morons is beyond the Pale.

[Garbarsardar]

Hell Garb, I have no issue with the topic of idiotic teens doing things like posting Che Guevara posters and wearing clothing without realizing the political history of Communism, so why would I care that you want to discuss the Japanese teens acting incredibly foolish and blithely ignorant of Nazi history?

My issue is this total lack of decorum with the title only. All you're going to do is pull out the same bigoted posts we have from the same folks who ALWAYS latch onto every Japanese Imperial topic for the last five years.

But go ahead for it's a historic biannual event on the forum. I guess it's typically worse like Japanese skulls taken in the Pacific Theatre or Nanking or the Comfort Women. All unbalanced and ironically just as blithely ignorant of the American culpability in all of those, like ignoring the American atrocities of not taking Japanese prisoners, bayoneting surrendering Japanese soldiers, killing Japanese wounded and medical staff in the Pacific islands, Americans and Australian servicemen using the same Comfort women as prostitutes and EVEN hiring more, grossly inflating the Chinese casualties of Nanking the documented numbers found by 50 Chinese historians in 2005 were documented to be 13,000 (a number that to this day remains the same in their many volume series). Ignoring that FDR started the Flying Tigers and they were in China before Pearl Harbor and he restricted Admiral Kimmel from knowing the attack was coming.

Just be freakin' balanced is all I am asking. Labeling the Japanese morons is beyond the Pale.

First of all, I never labelled the Japanese as "morons". I labelled the specific Japanese, being the girl-group, their manager and their production company as morons.

Second, I care for Japanese views on history inasmuch as they intersect with the particular behaviors, and these are relevant.

And I made explicit that Japan is not the one that has such problems but my hypothesis is that the silence around WW2 in Japanese education, exacerbates this trend of stupidity.

Funny that you mention Che Guevara. I had a long discussion with one of my students when I saw her sporting a Che sticker on her folder. She had no idea, she thought he was a "rebel singer", I kid you not.

Now if you want to discuss the intersections of pop culture, ignorance and ideological bias, be my guest, but this is not about the Meiji restoration, by any stretch.

[pacifism]

When a moderator emeritus starts a topic called Japanese Moron, then I would think the entire TWCenter leadership would denounce it.

It would be offensive if anyone began any topic that way about any group of people.

Shut it down.

Liberal morons, homosexual morons, Chinese morons, American moron, etc. It's revolting. It has no place in debate. It's not that the subject matter isn't worthy of debate, it's the title which is so biased that it's impossible to have a discussion.

Are Muslims who wear burkhas morons too? Is a style of dress that offends you an indication that someone is a moron? Is a transgender person who is a man becoming a woman and dressing that way...a moron? Is an apparently white person who dressed in Native American garb a moron?

Pray tell, explain yourself buddy.

Don't assume that there's that level collaboration and agreement between any and everyone with a badge on this site that they would bother individual denounce threads they don't like. I had all kinds of badges once, and I don't even like most people on this site. Or agree with them very much.

The title of thread is a bit provocative and can be taken the wrong way. But the topic of thread is very clearly about history classes in East Asia. It's not about the title of the thread, it's about its content. The title isn't a big deal - it can be easily changed and improved - so we don't need to "shut it down" just because it isn't good enough for your sensibilities. The title is not the topic of this thread. Exactly how many people died under the Japanese occupation of Nanking isn't the topic of this thread. Colonialism and Communism are barely related to the topic of this thread. It's only sort of about the Empire of Japan.

Now can you please stop this off-topic tangent before it derails any further? Some people want to actually talk about the subject matter at hand.

[Garbarsardar]

Meh, if the title hurts feeling, I will change that, especially If that buys me a respite from Meiji Restoration.

[RubiconDecision]

First of all, I never labelled the Japanese as "morons". I labelled the specific Japanese, being the girl-group, their manager and their production company as morons.

Second, I care for Japanese views on history inasmuch as they intersect with the particular behaviors, and these are relevant.

And I made explicit that Japan is not the one that has such problems but my hypothesis is that the silence around WW2 in Japanese education, exacerbates this trend of stupidity.

Funny that you mention Che Guevara. I had a long discussion with one of my students when I saw her sporting a Che sticker on her folder. She had no idea, she thought he was a "rebel singer", I kid you not.

Now if you want to discuss the intersections of pop culture, ignorance and ideological bias, be my guest, but this is not about the Meiji restoration, by any stretch.

Then change the title and call the specific JPop girls band morons for all I care. But that's not what it says. It says "Japanese morons and Nazi-chic".

We would never allow "Muslim morons and Jihad-chic" to be a topic. And it certainly doesn't belong here but in the Thema Devia.

And WRONG, the roots of Western Adoration specifically German culture goes specifically to Meiji and the tossing out of traditional Japanese culture. That is the genesis of adopting a fascination with Germany.

If you want to start a specific topic on this JPop band, then do so. The origin of that fascination of culture is precisely unfolded in Japan from 1868 and why I brought it up.

[Harith]

Meh, if the title hurts feeling, I will change that, especially If that buys me a respite from Meiji Restoration.

Anything that would stop the barrage of wall texts will be appreciated.

[Gigantus]

The title has been adjusted.

And this is the line now after which continued off topic is going to hurt, badly.

[Garbarsardar]

Well, I think that both the producers of 30Rock and Mel Brooks was pretty much aware of the associations and connotations of the attires they chose. Given the precedent in East Asia, I'm quite certain that neither the members of the group nor their inspired wardrobe designer had an idea about the implications of their clothes. And how could they? They are ignorant of their own history, much more so of world history. And the trend of young girls being sexualized at any cost for the pleasure of the nuclear-castrated Japanese male, knows no limits.

The second half of the equation (the first being institutionalised ignorance) has to be understood within the Japanese obsession with pedophilia (and some torture), and I'm half joking when calling them nuclear-castrated. Japanese men suffered two unprecedented defeats. First the one in WW2 which gave them the dubious honor of being the only country that was nuked and then by the Lost Decade (and the continuing economic malaise). It is conceivable that bearing the shame of these failures they felt threatened by adult women and were reduced to the pleasures of the impotent.

So, we have ignorance, sexualised teenage girls, a ravenous audience and the entertainment industry. What could possibly go wrong?

[RubiconDecision]

Well, I think that both the producers of 30Rock and Mel Brooks was pretty much aware of the associations and connotations of the attires they chose. Given the precedent in East Asia, I'm quite certain that neither the members of the group nor their inspired wardrobe designer had an idea about the implications of their clothes. And how could they? They are ignorant of their own history, much more so of world history. And the trend of young girls being sexualized at any cost for the pleasure of the nuclear-castrated Japanese male, knows no limits.

The second half of the equation (the first being institutionalised ignorance) has to be understood within the Japanese obsession with pedophilia (and some torture), and I'm half joking when calling them nuclear-castrated. Japanese men suffered two unprecedented defeats. First the one in WW2 which gave them the dubious honor of being the only country that was nuked and then by the Lost Decade (and the continuing economic malaise). It is conceivable that bearing the shame of these failures they felt threatened by adult women and were reduced to the pleasures of the impotent.

So, we have ignorance, sexualised teenage girls, a ravenous audience and the entertainment industry. What could possibly go wrong?

How is anything you posted relevant to the discussion? You've expanded upon your thesis statement in a monumental way. Show how what you originally wrote has one bit to do with a JPop band's apparel.

SO some people can wear Nazi regalia, but other's cannot, and you are the one to decide which is allowed?

Explain how your stereotypical observations on Japanese sexuality is in any way relevant to this discussion. They seem to be an entirely different subject. Provide proof that 100% of Japanese people have this predilection to pedophilia but only if you can bring it back to the wearing of Nazi apparel.

[Garbarsardar]

How is anything you posted relevant to the discussion? You've expanded upon your thesis statement in a monumental way. Show how what you originally wrote has one bit to do with a JPop band's apparel.

SO some people can wear Nazi regalia, but other's cannot, and you are the one to decide which is allowed?

Explain how your stereotypical observations on Japanese sexuality is in any way relevant to this discussion. They seem to be an entirely different subject. Provide proof that 100% of Japanese people have this predilection to pedophilia but only if you can bring it back to the wearing of Nazi apparel.

As I said, why one is donning nazi regalia is more important than he/she is donning those. Someone made a choice for what these girls should be wearing, a choice borne out of a combination of ignorance, greed and of course a choice considered appealing to the audience, an audience that craves for sexualised teens, for the reasons I referred to in my previous post. You don't need 100% to hypothesize a narrative.

Oh, and BTW, a duck:

[RubiconDecision]

You didn't answer my questions but are deflecting. How are 100% of Japanese pedophiles and how is that relevant to your original post and how does that relate to this JPop band's wearing Nazi apparel?

Why is it offensive for them, but allowed BY YOU of course, by others? Why are you the one who decides? What makes you the arbiter? What are your qualifications for judging an entire nation?

How is this topic not the worst example of stereotyping an entire nation too?

BTW I can think of any number of artists who depict women in similar ways. So is that style of art pedophilia?

[Garbarsardar]

It's a forum. People have opinions. If you don't like the opinions, argue. If you cannot argue, keep asking why people have opinions.

As for the topic, let me clarify:

[RubiconDecision]

Margaret Keane uses a similar style and yet I cannot think of any art critics who have made similar totally illogical leaps. Explain how pedophilia is relevant to a discussion of this topic. You're still deflecting and you have provided zero evidence of your assertions. It's so far it's one massive stereotype opinion piece after another and so broad that I cannot see how it can reasonably be discussed.

Even if you can produce artistic items which you deem pedophilia, then explain how that is indicative of your original thesis or proof that all Japanese are pedophiles or Nazi afficianados, or ignorant of WW2 Japanese Imperial history.

You have made monumental claims and I expect you must have volumes of evidence to support declarations of such acts against millions of people.

[Tiberios]

Let's try again. Please keep it civil.

[fkizz]

Hard to not come across as at best very clueless (at worst showing laziness to not bother doing minimal research) on depicting "Girls und Panzer" as "proof of nazism" given that:


1) there is a pro-USSR tank team who sings their anthem in Russian (Pravda team)

2) the picture quoted use Wehrmacht symbology, (is it still needed to explain difference between Wehrmacht and the SS? Wehrmacht had 150.000 soldiers who were Jews just for starters)

Following this type of cultural police hyper sensibility, Chuck Testa is also very very Nazi (to not mention the sinister pepe the frog)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJP1DphOWPs

I mean look at this Nazi Hat

PS -
3) The skirt was created not for sexual fetishim reasons, but to enhace the difference between genders.

This is why even "sexually repressed" (as claimed by the left) Fascist regimes encouraged the use of skirts in female uniforms. Even puritanesque schools will encourage young females to use skirts, and so on.
Females routinely using trousers for non-physical work reasons is a fairly modern thing, ironically.

4) Goes a Yuge difference in showing pretty girls as pretty and sexualizing them. The latter would be closer to Miley Cyrus

[Inhuman One]

And how many europeans and americans know much about asian history? the parts that did not involve their own country directly?

Sorry but this is a two way street. Generally speaking non japanese people are as ignorant about japanese history as they are of ours.

There's also this thing that here in the west we seem quite fond of ninja's, samurai, katana's and such.. But few people really know much truth behind those things either. They are also terribly ignorant about the things they claim to love so much.
Japan has the distinction of being deemed an iconic and cool nation when it comes to history. Same like the romans, the greeks, the french under napoleon, etc. So because of that non asians do tend to know a little more about Japan than about other "less cool" asian nations.

But the point is, theres some serious ignorance going both ways.