Did the Romans Invade Ireland? Where did Agricola Invade?

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

In the title really. I was reading about the Empire during the reign of Domitian; as you know, his reign was marked by a few military ventures, notably the attempted conquest of Scotland under Julius Agricola. However Tacitus mentions (Tac. Ag. 24) that "Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown".

Now this is my question; did the Romans perhaps send a brief expeditionary force to Ireland? If not, where is Tacitus referring to when he notes the brief foray into lands/tribes unknown?

We have lots of evidence for Roman presence i.e. coins along the Bru na Boinne area, and Tacitus mentioning it ("We know most of its/Hibernias harbours and approaches, and that through the intercourse of commerce"), but everything found suggests little in the nature of anything other than traders or visitors in a "non military context". Moreover, the rest of Tacitus Ag. 24 mentions that Agricola supposedly garrisoned troops along the coast in anticipation of a potential invasion, with an exiled Irish prince being the pretext (much in the same manner as the Claudian invasion of mainland Britain with Verica). Also he notes that Ireland could have been conquered with as little as 1 legion (and a few auxiliary cohorts). Therefore it seems to refute the candidacy of Ireland as the invaded lands mentioned in Ag. 24.

My initial thoughts are either the Isle of Man or perhaps the Isle of Arran, but with the lack of any real material evidence these are merely conjectural.

Any thoughts lads?

[IrishBlood]

I recall seeing a documentary awhile back about the Roman Empires links/interactions with Ireland stretching from when they first took over Britain to when they left and the onset of the dark ages.

Because of the fairly vast time frame they had to cover a lot and didn't go into too much detail, but I do remember them discussing a relatively recent discovery in Leinster (could have been Wexford or Waterford, not sure) where they seem to have found the remains of a Castra/Castrum, the fortified camps used by the Roman Legions/Cohorts when on campaign.

The layout of it combined with Roman coins and other such things have put forward the theory that at least a cohort was sent to Ireland and made a semi-permanent fortified camp near the coast. The theory is that they were either sent on a punitive exhibition to punish Irish raiders or they did so to aid a friendly/allied Irish Chief against his neighbors.

EDIT: I think this might be what they were referring to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumanagh

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/irel...-legionnaires/

EDIT EDIT: The more I look into this the more contentious a topic it seems to be! Some historians seem adamant that the fort was built by Romans for Romans, while others are certain it was merely the fort of a wealthy Irish chief who regularly traded with Roman Briton.

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/ro...raders-1.24593

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/exper...-claim-1.23995


There was also a discovery of a mass grave full of the battered bodies of possible Roman Legionaries or at least lads who had a fondness for wearing their gear!

http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/irel...-legionnaires/

This guy also makes some reasonable arguments in favor of the invasion theory;

http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba14/BA14FEAT.HTML

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

Thanks for replying. Aye I've heard of Drumanagh Fort, but the issue is that all Roman forts tended to adhere to a strict layout (consistent across the Empire), if I'm not mistaken. Therefore if this is indeed a Roman fort then shouldn't it adhere to that stereotype?

The mass grave is much more compelling, however alternative hypotheses could be given; they could have been locals equipped in Roman garb (as we know trade was commonplace between the two peoples):- alternatively the gear could have been stolen, as Ireland was notorious for its raiding and piracy at the time (St. Patrick, cough cough).

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

Also - the fact that Tacitus specifically mentions the preparation for an invasion of Ireland immediately after the "crossing" kind of refutes the argument that Agricola invaded Ireland. After all, why would he mention "lands hitherto unknown" then literally mention Hibernia specifically in the next sentence? It doesn't make sense....

[Roma_Victrix]

There's no solid evidence that Agricola or even one of his underling officers ever stepped foot in Ireland, but that doesn't negate the fact that we have found Roman style graves in eastern parts of Ireland, probably representing small trade communities. And as you've said, we've certainly discovered plenty of Roman coins, indicating at the very least a regular trade relationship with the Roman Empire.

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

^The fact that Rome traded with Hibernian peoples is not questioned (in fact the evidence for such is overwhelming) but whether or not the Romans actually had a solid military presence in Ireland, either via a brief foray or expedition (kinda like the Neronian expedition up the Nile) or something more significant (involving several cohorts, a vexillation and/or a legion).

[Cyclops]

I think OP is a bit of a Dorothy Dix, very unlikely the Romans invaded Ireland. If they had there'd be a Caesar or Augustus called "Hibernius" for sure

I saw an Irish Archaeology journal a while ago with an article that posed the question "what have the Romans ever done for us?". The answer was enormous, IIRC it included the mode of dress, imported goods (more and better wine) weapon types, metal work tech and uses, animals, crops, architecture and a heap of other things. Ireland was strongly affected by its Roman neighbour across the sea.

We see a strong "cultural shadow" in places like the Crimea and Dacia where merely by being adjacent to or just across the sea from a Roman province deeply influences local cultures.

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

What a weird term (just Googled it). I assure you that I haven't researched this beforehand (although the reason I'm asking is because I was reading about it in the first place =P).

So you'd argue that Ireland went through a form of acculturation? For that to occur then surely there must have been a significant Roman presence (either a lot of traders or a military garrison). Sure didn't the Gauls and such keep their own cultures up until their conquest, and weren't they were markedly different from the Romans?

[sumskilz]

What a weird term (just Googled it).

Australian, which is weird because Dorothy Dix herself was American. They also have a specific term for the matted dirty hair on sheep's ass and a rather colorful term for what we call outhouses. But despite his cryptic vernacular, he makes a strong argument in the lack of there being a famous conqueror known as Hibernius. The places I'm most familiar with archaeologically were all eventually incorporated within the empire, but certainly evidence of Romanization predated that. Ireland had much longer to be just beyond the frontier, so it would actually be surprising if it wasn't heavily influenced considering the disparities in power and development.

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

Gotta love that Aussie vernacular - Norn Irish is just as colourful

Doubtless Ireland was influenced by Roman culture - I mean we even have evidence for Byzantine coinage (the hyperperon I think?) in Ireland and Scandinavia, so I find it implausible to believe otherwise.

However, allow me to go back to what Tacitus said at the start of Ag. 24; "Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown".

Where then do you think he means when he refers to these unknown tribes and peoples?

[sumskilz]

However, allow me to go back to what Tacitus said at the start of Ag. 24; "Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown".

I think the theory is that Clota is the river Clyde. It was Clut or Clud in Cumbric.

[IrishBlood]

Gotta love that Aussie vernacular - Norn Irish is just as colourful

Doubtless Ireland was influenced by Roman culture - I mean we even have evidence for Byzantine coinage (the hyperperon I think?) in Ireland and Scandinavia, so I find it implausible to believe otherwise.

However, allow me to go back to what Tacitus said at the start of Ag. 24; "Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown".

Where then do you think he means when he refers to these unknown tribes and peoples?

Perhaps the Isle of Man? Is there any specific archaeological evidence from the Isle of Man that depicts its relationship with the Romans?

[Ludicus]

t Tacitus specifically mentions the preparation for an invasion of Ireland

Juvenal,
"Indeed, we have advanced arms beyond the shores
of Inverna and the recently captured Orkneys
and the mighty Britons with their short nights..."

Well, the campaigns in the Orkneys and Britain are both historically attested actions.It was perhaps a Roman expedition into Ireland.

[Garbarsardar]

You could read this article by Warner. It argues for a Roman military presence in Ireland which may (or may not) coincide with your definition of "invasion".

[Cyclops]

A lot of our vernacular is London slum or Irish (Catholic and Presbyterian) as these people were exported as convicts. We have a term for cheering your footballers "barracking" (to boastfully cheer on, cf the Gaelic word Barraigh= boast) quite different to the English "barracking" (which means to yell at like a seargent in the barracks)

I think the theory is that Clota is the river Clyde. It was Clut or Clud in Cumbric.

As in "Alt Clut"?

[IrishBlood]

You could read this article by Warner. It argues for a Roman military presence in Ireland which may (or may not) coincide with your definition of "invasion".

I already linked that But yes, some good argument's are put forth in it.

[sumskilz]

As in "Alt Clut"?

Yeah, the "alt" part is (or is hypothesized to be) "rock" or "hill" based on proposed cognates. I don't know how linguistically solid that is because I don't remember exactly where I read it, but visually it makes sense:

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

Ah, I never considered the River Clyde; thanks for that.

It may well be that the "tribes hitherto unknown" are neighbouring tribes of the Caledonii then.

[Cyclops]

... a specific term for the matted dirty hair on sheep's ass ...

A dag. Strangely is also a term for an unfashionable person or thing "being in the school band is a bit daggy" but also for someone one familiar and fondly thought of "come here you big dag".

... and a rather colorful term for what we call outhouses...

Well also spell colourful "colourful", not having fought a revolutionary war I guess. I always though the term ****house came from German via prisoners of war and "shizenhausen" is a part of our vernacular too but the OED says its been a Pom word for ages.

Oh and we call the English (not British) Poms. No one knows why (maybe they called English migrants "Pomegranates" 'cause the words are similar or they turned red? Sounds unlikely to me) but they hate it so we keep doing it.

[IrishBlood]

Oh and we call the English (not British) Poms. No one knows why (maybe they called English migrants "Pomegranates" 'cause the words are similar or they turned red? Sounds unlikely to me) but they hate it so we keep doing it.

I always found that hilariously entertaining when my Australian cousins came to visit and complained about 'them in pom tourists' taking over Ozzie beaches