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Thread: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (included in 097+)

  1. #61

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    talking about resources, in my IBERIAN PTF also have some notes about interesant resources that should be corrected for the next version in the iberian peninsula, just 3 cases:
    1. SLAVE RESOURCE near to the port of Lisboa,exist many historical resources that here there was a lot of "traffic" with the people called "saqalibas" that were Slavic mercenaries serving Muslims, the typical christian guard for muslims that a lot of them were tallest men of blonde hair(scandinavians and slavic people)
    2.FRUIT AND GRAIN RESOURCE near to Murcia city,maybe in the empty lands near to the settlement, Murcia was and is the orchard of Andalusia and Spain, also the region of Murcia should be more green colour,high fertility,simulating a lot of farming...Do not confuse Murcia with the region of Almeria (semi-desert) near Murcia.
    3.GOLD,SILVER AND COOPER near to Huelva region(between Sevilla and Silves)
    Mines of Tharsis, Huelva.

    The Tharsis (Huelva) deposits have attracted the attention of the miners since ancient times. Proof of this are the 3.5 million tonnes of tartésico-Roman slag, from which 170,000 t of copper and significant quantities of gold and silver could have been extracted. Tartessos and Romans exploited the gossanized and cemented upper areas of all the masses of the Tharsis area

    About IBERIAN PENINSULA PTF, when you can, i would like that give me some opinion, i have try to make the most historical possible with right coat of arms and descriptions...
    Also i will continue maybe with Italia or British islands...
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  2. #62
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    @ j.a.luna, take it easy. We can't be everywhere. 1 area at the time

    @ JoC, below what I've found so far. Note that it's subject to change as I'm not 100% sure about the regions' names and that the game can handle the special letters:
    Oslo (Eastern Norway) -Østlandet
    Bergen (Western Norway) - Veslandet
    Skara (Westro-Gothia) - Västergötland
    Sigtuna (Uplandia) - Uppland
    Kalmar (Smolandia) - Småland
    Visby - Gotland
    Lund - Scania
    Roskilde (Zealand) - Sjælland
    Ribe (Jutland) - Jylland

    To answer to your previous post, the actual names are more or less the english one where I put the native language one in my list above.
    I still need to check in these names are correct for the medieval period and also about the related titles
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  3. #63
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    @ JoC, below what I've found so far. Note that it's subject to change as I'm not 100% sure about the regions' names and that the game can handle the special letters:
    Oslo (Eastern Norway) -Østlandet
    Bergen (Western Norway) - Veslandet
    Skara (Westro-Gothia) - Västergötland
    Sigtuna (Uplandia) - Uppland
    Kalmar (Smolandia) - Småland
    Visby - Gotland
    Lund - Scania
    Roskilde (Zealand) - Sjælland
    Ribe (Jutland) - Jylland

    To answer to your previous post, the actual names are more or less the english one where I put the native language one in my list above.
    I still need to check in these names are correct for the medieval period and also about the related titles
    It's better to be roughly right than perfectly wrong - I think the proposals are way, way better than before.
    There's just a historical question left:why Sigtuna not Uppsala?
    Plus the proposals of the titles, of course. Actually, I've already started balancing benefits for the titles based on my knowledge of Scandinavia. I plan to give 2 Chivalry plus 1 Authority for Oslo and Roskilde, Dread for Bergen and Skara, trade benefits for Oslo, Visby, Ribe, less for Bergen and Kalmar, mining benefit for Sigtuna, religious for Lund.
    Pro memoria: here one may find some pics, perhaps not always 100% from our period of history, but they may look nice in the game.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 31, 2017 at 03:44 AM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Sigtuna was more important than Uppsala at that time

    Regarding the pics, all titles one so far are related to settlements rather to regions as far as I remember. The one you linked for Gotaland, is for the region, not for Visby. For Visby, there's one in the pdf doc I posted in the previous page from the 14th century (page #83 of the document) or there's also the following one (but don't know the period):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; March 31, 2017 at 03:51 AM. Reason: Typo
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  5. #65
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Sigtuna was more important than Uppsala at that time
    to be sure: "that time" - is 12 century, or 12,13,14,15 centuries?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Regarding the pics, all titles one so far are related to settlements rather to regions as far as I remember.
    Actually, if the titles will be "Jarl of -province-" then we should probably use the provinces' coats of arms? I don't know.

  6. #66
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Sigtuna was founded during 970s to ensure new Swedish king power and new Catholic religion. Uppsala remain pagan until the end of the 11th century. The royal authority and administration moved from Uppsala to Sigtuna. From the 12th century, Sigtuna became also an important trading center. Anyway, here is a text I've found (don't know the author unfortunately):
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Sigtuna was founded not far from the older royal estate of Signhildsberg (Damell 1989, 1991, 1999; Tesch 1990) and it is believed that the town was a deliberate attempt to establish a site for the new religion (Selinge 1989). No signs of pre-Christian graves have been documented in Sigtuna. In the new town, the new religion and a strong royal power, first led by Erik Segersäll and later by his son Olov Skötkonung, could be united. Already from its foundation in the end of the 10th century, the town plots had a planned and regulated structure (Tesch 1990; Pettersson 1995) and Sigtuna displays an urban character from the beginning. In the centre of the town a lager town yard, probably the royal manor is placed (Tesch 1990, 2001). Along the main streets, long town plots were laid out together with ditches and wooden trackways. Within a plot the physical layout and function of the dwellings altered during the Middle Ages (Petterson 1990; Pettersson 1995). All houses except for the churches and some lager institutions such as a Dominican Friary, were made of wood. Even though the living conditions improved so that a switch was made from earth to wooden floors with time, the level of sanitation and hygiene were most likely low. No signs of proper latrines have been discovered and only wicker hurdles were used to keep manure and refuse away from the wall of the house. In addition, finds of gnawed animal bones and ancient dung show that smaller animals such as pigs, dogs and chickens were allowed to stroll around freely. Yet, the excavations of the black earth have reviled none or few finds of agrarian character, such as ploughs, stables or barns (Högrell 1990; Pettersson 1990). The main function of the town seems in the beginning to have been as a centre of administration both for Christianity and for the royal power (Tesch 1989, 1996a). In the 12th century signs of craft and trade from a variety of professions increase. This implies that the function of the town was changing cf. Hed Jacobsson 2003: 217). Extensive contacts are indicated through finds produced in Slavic areas, northern Germany, Denmark, England, Holland, France, Belgium, Germany, Byzantium and Kiev (Karlsson 1989; Larsson 1990; Roslund 1990, 2001).

    Since the role of Sigtuna changed over the centuries, the organisation and topography of the town was affected. In the period of AD 1000-1150 six or seven stone churches were erected. In the 11th-12th century the town was an Episcopal seat and in AD 1120 it was acknowledge as a diocese centre (Tesch 1996b, Bonnier 1989). No later than a century after being built, three of the stone churches were demolished, probably as a result from a religious and political reorganization (Tesch 2001). All but one (St Nicholas’) of the remaining churches went from being private churches to, accommodate the townspeople (St Laurence’s), or became parish churches (St Olaf’s and St Peter’s). Nevertheless, Sigtuna had a strong religious status. In AD 1237 a Dominican friary with the church of St Mary’s was erected (Redelius 1989). This was the one of the first brick buildings in the region. In the 13th century a hospital was founded in the outskirts of the town (Kjellström, Tesch & Wikström 2005). Stockholm had however, started to replace Sigtuna as the centre of political power. The decline that had started already at the end of the 13th century continued during the 14th and 15th century. After the reformation in AD 1527, several churches were left to decay and the friary was completely demolished. Only St Mary’s was left untouched.

    The socioeconomic variety of the inhabitants for the first centuries in the town is scarcely known. It has been suggested that the king gave or lended plots in the town to loyal subjects (Tesch 1990, 2000, 2001; Zachrisson 1998: 162f; Kjellström, Tesch & Wikström 2003). This suggests that except for the royal family a large amount of households connected to the upper class were situated in the town. However, the noblemen most likely also had farms in the surrounding countryside providing extended support to the urban community (Tesch 1990, 2000, 2001, Andersson 2004). The archaeological record and comparisons with contemporary historical sources elsewhere, demonstrate a highly hierarchal society, though the proportion of different classes is unknown.

    Regardless of the urban character of Sigtuna, in general, each household was to a large degree self-supporting, i.e. most of the food and tools were produced in the household, in town or in the near region. A variety of plants were cultivated not far from Sigtuna. Generally, barley was the most important cereal during late iron and Middle Ages (Myrdal 1985: 64; 1999: 38). Fossil plant remains of cereals in the region have been analysed (Hansson 1997: 24). Besides the most basic crops various vegetables, fruits and herbs were cultivated. Province laws and contemporary Scandinavian literature mention peas, beans, turnips, hemp, onions, apples, cabbage, peas, beans and flax and a variety of other plants (cf. Myrdal 1985: 68, 1985: 118; KL 1965: 81-86; KL 1961: 265). From the cultural layers in nearby Viking settlements, plant remains of non-cultivated species such as nuts and berries have been identified (Hansson 1997: 24). In the cultural layers the bone debris indicates that the most commonly slaughtered animals were cattle, sheep, goat and pig (Hårding 1990). The osteological analysis shows that beef dominate in general. According to comparisons with bone materials of other urban and rural settings, Sigtuna reflect an urban composition and slaughter pattern (Vretemark 1997: 85ff). Hunted animals constituted an important complement, though not necessarily to the diet (Vretemark 1997: 145), but also as fur animals (Jonsson 1989; Hårding 1990). The closeness to the archipelago is reflected among particularly the bird bones. Sigtuna displays a remarkable frequency of bones from wild birds in comparison with other medieval animal assemblages. In contrast to later developed towns the amount of wild fowl exceeds the frequency of domesticated birds (Jonsson 1989; Vretemark I997: 152).

    The Christian rules regarding the fasts were strict and regulated the mammalian meat consumption. The importance of fish is reflected in the large quantities of fish bones in the Sigtuna layers. Even though the extent of fishing in the Baltic Sea was moderate, bones from herring and cod have been identified (e.g. Hårding, unpublished manuscript). The local fish from the lake Mälaren such as pike and carp were in majority (Ericsson 1989). Fishing was foremost a local business, but some organised import of dried cod and pike may have occurred (Ericsson 1989; Hårding 1990, Hårding unpublished manuscript).

    The mixed diet as suggested by historical records and osteological remains in large concur with the results of the analysis of stable isotopes (Kjellström 2005: V). The dietary pattern of 80 adult individuals showed that the protein intake was mainly terrestrial and that a variety in vegetable intake between groups was discernable.

    The graves

    More than 900 graves have been excavated from different parts of the cemeteries of the town. The first burial sites are small, without an attached church, and the graves lack burial offerings and have an east–west orientation. One of these early cemeteries, the block Nunnan, have been excavated. No true archaeological confirmation of wooden churches exist, however, the orientation of the graves indicate that at least five stone churches in Sigtuna, built during the period c. 1080–1200, had predecessors (Tesch 2000, 2001).

    Of the 900 graves about 755 had a firm archaeological context. A relative chronology for the graves was developed based on a combination of stratigraphic analysis, grave fillings, grave goods and arm positions (Kjellström, Tesch & Wikström 2003). The relative chronology of the graves has subsequently been confirmed by 106 (14% of the total skeletal material) radio carbon-dated individuals (Ua17743-17750, Ua 21858-21869, Ua 22702-22741, Ua 23198-23237, Ua-34909-34918). Based on this, the material was subdivided into three rough burial phases, Phase 1 (c. 900-1100, Phase 2 (c. 1100-1300) and Phase 3 (c. 1300-1530). The three phases represent three successive periods of development of the town, i.e. its establishment, its peak of prosperity, and its decline.

    In Sigtuna as well as in other medieval churchyards in Europe, the burial regulations were strictly controlled by the Christian ideology. However, according to medieval Norwegian laws, the Borgarthings Ecclesiastical Law and the Eidsivathings Ecclesiastical Law, a social topography may be distinguished in the churchyard (Gejvall 1960: 121). These laws state that clergy, the proprietor of the church and other overlords were buried close to the church walls on the southeastern side, followed by a zone of farmers and other free men. In the outer zones, thralls (slaves) and possibly newly baptized babies were buried. In addition to social segregation, the Eidsivathings Ecclesiastical Law recommended that men and women should be separated, with men buried to the south and women to the north of the church (Gejvall 1960; Nilsson 1994: 46). Looking at investigations from other medieval churchyards in Scandinavia it is clear that this strict subdivision of burials in to social groups or sexes never was fully carried out. The same “law breaking” order goes most likely for the graves in Sigtuna, since women and men are found both north and south of the church (though a clear male dominance is found in the south).

    With few exceptions, the individual were buried in an extended supine position, with, at most, some single personal objects such as a buckle, knife or tweezers. There is, however, a great variety both within and between churchyards in how the dead were treated. The diseased could be buried in their ordinary clothes or a shroud with or without a wooden coffin, and in rare occasions, stone or brick coffins.

    So all in all, from the end of the 10th century and onward, Sigtuna became more important than Uppsala

    About the titles, most of the references in documents and sagas refer to the Jarls + their name, not to a settlement nor a region. I honestly don't mind to use the regional coat of arms instead the settlement one. The only issue could be that the regions in SSHIP don't necessarely correspond to the real one
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  7. #67
    Eldgrimr's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    I can help out some more about Scandinavia if you guys want. Just ask, and I'll find some good stuff. I understand Swedish sources after all!

  8. #68
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Thanks Mate.
    Can you confirm that the regions' names I posted above are correct?
    Can you give your input about how we should name the title for the one who conquiers the whole Scandinavia? There's no such title really and I proposed King of the Norsemen (Medieval English reference to Norses leaders). Though, I'm open to any suggestion
    About the king title itself, should we keep Kong or update it to Konungr?
    For Noble titles, Jarl seems the best choice. However, if you have info,feel free to share
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; March 31, 2017 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Typos
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Sure thing, I'll start doing all of that when I've eaten.

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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    No rush. We don't want to loose you because of the starvation
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    A few more imputs:
    - I confirm that if we use Jarl, it should be Jarl of + region's name unless we use the old Norse words and grammar (subject to game limitations).
    - I found also the following references:
    1. Hersier - a chieftain and military commander who was subordinate to either a Jarl or a King
    2. Sysselmann - an administrator (still in use in the Faroe Islands as a mix of policeman and local administrator)
    3. Lendsmann/Lensmand (lendr maðr) only subject to the king or Jarl. The title was temporary replaced in Norway with the title Baron (abolished in 1308 by Haakon V).
    4. Årmann/Årmenn were administrators at the king's castle - castellan, stewart or similar.

    Looks like beside Jarl, Lendsmann can also be used. The others seems for lesser ranks but might be useful for the ancillaries.

    Edit: I should have started by this one: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=1#post7631929
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; March 31, 2017 at 06:43 AM.
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Considering the types of administrative regions have changed over time, should I use the medieval names for the regions of the cities? For example, the eastern half of Norway in the game was not called Østlandet back then, it was called Borgarþingslǫg.
    Last edited by Eldgrimr; March 31, 2017 at 07:48 AM.

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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to find. Well done Mate
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  14. #74
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldgrimr View Post
    Considering the types of administrative regions have changed over time, should I use the medieval names for the regions of the cities? For example, the eastern half of Norway in the game was not called Østlandet back then, it was called Borgarþingslǫg.
    This name "Østlandet" is the 20 century name?
    I actually wonder how much should we come back with the names... eg. Gdansk in Poland was called in one source (997) Gydannyzc. However, it probably somehow changed over the centuries, and many names were probably used. Gdansk is 20 century Polish, (perhaps 19, maybe earlier), but I wouldn't get back to Gydannyzc, actually.
    How it is the namer for the German cities in HRR? Was Regensburg spelled in such a way? Or it was in Latin

  15. #75
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    No, the names I've found are not only the modern names but also the modern administrative counties. That's why I'm trying to find the one used during the medieval period, at least for the titles.
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  16. #76
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Regions
    Oslo - Borgarþingslǫg
    Bergen - Gulaþingslǫg
    Skara - Vestrgautland
    Sigtuna - Uppland (Uppland didn't exist as a region until the late 13th century, so I'm not sure what to do)
    Kalmar - Smáland
    Visby - Gutland
    Lund - Skáney
    Roskilde - Sjáland
    Ribe - Jótland

    Too bad CA didn't add Sweden to the game. Now there's nobody to use the Swedish cities (except if you conquer it).
    What next, Lifth?

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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    For Sigtuna, I've seen references mentionning Svealand. It might be more appropriate
    Also what's the difference between Jylland and Jótland? Just the language or is there anything more?

    Next, I guess that's the titles. Should we stick to Jarl or make a mix between Jarl and Lendsmann? Others? I still have to go in detail through the post I've linked in post #75. Meanwhile, if we give "title + of + region's name" like f.e. Jarl of Borgarþingslǫg, is that correct?
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Svealand is basically a collection of several regions, Uppland included. Back in the middle ages, Svealand (Svíþjóð) had a jarl, so maybe you could pick that, to make it more accurate.
    Jylland is the modern Danish/Norwegian/Swedish name for it, while Jótland is the old Norse name for it.

    While we know of several regions that had Jarls, we don't exactly know which regions had Lendsmenn, so it might be safest to stick to Jarl.
    If you're gonna use English, Jarl of .... would be best in my opinion.

    Also, don't mind the avatar change
    Last edited by Eldgrimr; March 31, 2017 at 10:11 AM.

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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    That's my feeling too.
    Just by curiosity, what would be Jarl of... in old Norse?
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    In the Scandinavian languages, we usually don't use the word 'of', so when it comes to for example 'Jarl of Svealand', it would most often be 'Jarl in Svealand/Jarl í Svíþjóð'.

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