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Thread: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    As many players noticed, the provincial titles’ in the SSHIP need revamping. I’v played the game a bit and I can tell 7 types of errors in the current version:

    • For some settlements the titles do not exist at all (eg. Goroden title doesn't exist since the SS6.4 title is given now to Volodymyr – it means new title (with the relevant file and the entries) is needed).
    • The titles of some provinces cannot be acquired because the SSHIP changed the names of the settlements (eg. “Duke of Vilnius” requires a general to be in Vilnius, but in the game there’s Kernave, no Vilnius).
    • The in-game names of the titles are not historical for many factions (“Duke of …” for the Polish provinces).
    • The descriptions of the benefits are misleading, telling different benefits of the titles that they’re in-game (eg. description of the Kraków says {Tax Collection +5%, increased loyalty, inspiration to his troops, increased authority} whereas in reality it gives {5%Tax, 5%Trade, 1Loyalty, 1Authority, 1popularity}).
    • The descriptions are not related to history, they don’t create flavor of a historical game (Entitled as Lord of Turku, a good place to establish a kingdom...)
    • Sometimes there’re funny things in the descriptions (the description of Tbilisi title: it claims that the duke “seeks independence” while the title gives +1Loyalty).
    • The visual depictions of the titles are not always in line with what they should be, many are ahistorical (from 16-19th century or so), and many coat of arms are just blurry pics of something you cannot say what’s that (eg. Turku, Smolensk, Twangste etc., for blurry pics: Zara or Reval).


    The problems are numerous, but not serious. You can play the game and enjoy it without paying attention to them. I play M2TW for the gameplay, and the balance between money, costs of troops, diplomacy and AI behavior is in th SSHIP the is best of any mod I'd played. But I also play for the immersion and historicity – and SSHIP is equally good, with some minor issues, as for instance the provincial titles.
    Since I do optimize my playing and I would like to know if a title gives 10% Tax or 1 Law in the (in-game) reality, the titles are even more important. Therefore I’ve started to solve these problems on my own for my own – this is what this submod is about: fix of the titles’ issues. Given that I've played Poland, I’ve looked through the files and revamped the Polish titles, and also Lithuanian, Ruthenian and Hungarian ones. I came out with a set of principles for the provincial benefits. I would like to share it with you, they may be useful in future – it’s below in the next entry.

    On the basis of those principles, I made many changes to the two relevant files, and created new pics where it was needed.

    To be specific, I’ve made changes made concerning:

    • the benefits in EDA (export_desc_ancillaries.txt)
    • the descriptions of the titles/settlements/provinces in EA (export_ancillaries.txt)
    • the related descriptions of the benefits in EA (export_ancillaries.txt)

    for the following 30 settlements: Lubeck, Stettin, Wroclaw, Poznań, Gdańsk, Krakow, Plock, Twangste, Vilnius, Riga, Kolyvan, Turku, Polock, Pskov, Novgorod, Volodymyr, Halych, Turow, Kiev, Pereyaslav, Chernigov, Smolensk, Suzdal, Turov, Esztergom, Szekesfehervar, Varad, Gyulafehervar, Zagreb, Zara.
    I’ve also created a title for Goroden (through modification the existing entry for non-existing Kaunas).

    I’ve changed pictures (in the directory data/ui/ancillaries)

    • Erroneous or bad quality pictures replacement for: Vilnius-Kernave (well, I don’t think the CoA of Kernave existed in 12th century), Twangste (with 14th c. CoA of Konigsberg), Kolyvan-Reval (three lions appeared in the 13c. and they’re traditional), Turku, Novgorod, Smolensk (well, replacement is for sure not perfect, since it’s a gun, so even if it’s traditional, it’s a later tradition, I'd like to change it in future), Suzdal, Pereyaslav, Esztergom, Varad, Szekesfehervar, Rostov.
    • Slightly better quality pics for Volodymyr, Lubeck, Turov.
    • good pictures for cities replaced with the pictures right for whole provinces: Wroclaw and Poznan.

    Smaller fixes:

    • changed the names of the titles in EA for the six Polish provinces (Stettin, Wroclaw, Poznań, Gdańsk, Krakow, Plock) into “Comes …” – see entry below.
    • removed unused descriptions of Konigsberg from EA.
    • changed names in EA to adjust it to the map: Volodimir into Volodymyr, and Rustov into Rostov.
    • Put right reference in EDA in the triggers for acquiring the Kernave title (), change of the name of the title in EA accordingly.


    Version 2 changes:

    • simplified descriptions for Law and Popularity
    • fixed issues with descriptions for Comes Masoviae, Polonia Maior, Castellanus Cracoviensis, Novgorod
    • new names for the Hungarian, Balticum and Ruthenian titles according to the description in this post;
    • new pics: Smolensk (bear instead of a gun), Goroden and Halych (better quality),
    • not related to the provincial titles, but I use them so I share them: new pics for some ancillaries: Architect, Crown of Poland, Intrepid Explorer, Mercenary Captain, Librarian, Master Smith, Mathematician, Book of 1001 Nights, Shield Bearer, Tax Farmer, Master of Horse, Tutor, Warrior Berseker.

    Keep in mind that there're agents "priests" (bishops, cardinals), so ecclesiastical titles (Archbishop of something" cannot be used even if in many cases they'd be pertinent (like Archbishop of Estergom or Archbishop of Trier).

    Technical notes:
    * in EDA I haven’t changed anything related to the ancillary type, transferability.
    * in future the list is likely to get longer the more changes I make and new versions of files I attach.
    * I modified different files than ZoombieZleeping in his submod Authentic Faction Names & Character Titles 0.12 so there’s no conflict between the two.

    How to use it?
    * un-pack the zip files.
    * put the files into relevant folders: EDA into /data directory, EA into /data/text, images into data/ui/ancillaries (afaik, in this directory you should delete the related txt.strings.bin file before playing)
    * it think it’s save-compatible, at least it is how I’m using it.

    Current state of affairs (ie fixed provinces)
    [IMG][/IMG]
    ptf ver 2 files.zipptf ver 2 pics.zip
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 20, 2017 at 07:47 AM. Reason: Version 2 put online.

  2. #2
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (2)

    The benefits of the titles - current version (2)


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Principles

    • The titles’ benefits should reflect the “character” of a province, something it was famous for, or something people relate this province or the main city or an important place with. It should concern whole Middle Ages (not only 12th century).
    • At the same time the benefits should be useful for the gameplay: providing choice for the player and making him assigning the title to a particular general (eg. my Gdansk title gives 2Chivalry which is crucial for upgrading some cities – I was very happy to have it; another one for Pskow providing 10% Tax – I assigned it to the governor of a trade-rich province). Therefore many titles should have a “dominating” benefit (like 15% Trade or 2 Chivalry).
    • There should be a set of “normal” benefits linked to every title, and some benefits which make a title unique (for gameplay purposes).
    • After second thoughts during calibration of the titles’ values I came to the conclusions that negative benefits (any minus-something) are not fit for the purpose. Therefore all effects will be positive, but one: each of the titles will be related to lower personal security (-1). Given that the AI does not use assassins much, it should not create problems.
    • The titles – both individually and as a system - should not be “overpowered”, i.e. should not give too many benefits. Of course we the players coming from different parts of the world think that “our” provinces should have many benefits for we know ins-and-outs of history. But we should not exaggerate – in my case I’ll try not to make Central Europe filled with much more benefits compared to, say, Iran. Or England, even if we .

    Value of a title

    • can be summarized with a number. For counting this number, each “normal” benefit gives 1, malus should be deducted, and good benefits stacked (eg. 2 Dread, 2Chivalry, 15%trade) add 1. (Examples: current Novgorod (5% tax, 5%Trade, 1 Loyal, 1 morale, 1Authority, 1Piety, 1Law, 1Chivalry) is worth 8, while Riga (5%Tax, 5%Trade, 1Loyal, 1Piety, -1popularity) is worth 3, and Vilnius (2Dread, -2Piety, 1 Loyal) is worth 2.
    • A title should be worth between 2 and 4, very rarely 5-6, in exceptional cases more.
    • As said, we should not “overpower” certain parts of the world. Of course, we’ve got much sources about England, but we should not assign 7-worth titles to every province. Keep the regions balanced. The rule of thumb should be: average of worth of provinces in a region should be around 4,0 (This is not objective criterion, it’s just my personal choice: I came out with this number empirically, after having assigned titles, and then nerfing them in a painful process).
    • Exceptional cases should be really exceptional, so that a player may appreciate a title. These should be holy cities or significant cities famous thoughout the Middle Ages. The tentative list of those exceptional titles: Constantinople, Rome, Bagdad, Jerusalem, to a lesser extent: London, Paris, Coelln, Seville- Isbiliyya or Corduba, Venice, Novgorod, Kiev, Krakow, Al-Quahira, Damascus, Isfahan). I think this list keeps the balance between different regions and different religions (but pagans, sorry).

    Standard benefits

    • Each title gives 4 benefits due to the very essence of any provincial title.
    • Gaining a title from a ruler means that this person is interested in the ruler’s reign -> every title gives +1 Loyalty
    • Gaining a title is related with the authority to keep order somewhere -> every title gives 1 Law or 1Popularity (depending on character of province according to a subjective view, it should vary for gameplay-flavor as well)
    • Gaining a title for a province means more money from management -> every title gives +5% Tax or +5% Trade (depending on character of province according to a subjective view, it should vary for gameplay-flavor as well)
    • Being a politically important person means that this person is likely to be the target of the foreign shady deals -> every title gives -1 Personal Security

    Further benefits related to the character of provinces:

    • provinces that were traditionally famous for trade (eg. Venice, Ragusa, Genoa, Pisa, Barcelona, London, Bergvin, Lubice, Gdansk, Visby, Pskov, Novgorod, Azaq, Sarkel, Thessalonica, Smyrna, Tunis, Alexandria, Rayy, Marv, Chersonesos) -> a title gives (additional) +5% Trade
    • provinces that were famous for other wealth from the mines or from agriculture (yes, I know it’s very hard to distinguish from trade, but still: eg. Lyon, Rheims, Frankfurt, Milan, Palermo, Napoli, Seville-Isbiliyya, Krakow, Prague, Gyulafehervar, Vrhbosna, Angora, Dumyat-NileDelta, Mosul, Urgench-AmuDaria, Shiraz, Nishapur) -> a title gives additional +5% Tax
    • provinces that were famous for religious sites/events/etc. (for instance: Coellen, Trier, Lund, Poznan, Esztergom, Kiev, Constantinople, Baghdad, Yazd, many others I skip mentioning here) -> a title gives +1Piety
    • provinces that were famous for sacred sites (Rome, Jerusalem, Mecca, Santiago de Compostella) -> a title gives +2Piety
    • provinces that were vast (much space requiring long voyages made them famous for long travels, eg. Novgorod, Smolensk, Rostov, Turov, Iasi, Aktobe, Tayma-Nefud, Makkah, Ray, Yazd) -> a title gives +3Movement points.
    • provinces that were famous for castles or commanders (eg. Ras, Sis, Konya, Valence-Balansiyya, Granada-Garnata, Toledo, Kayseri, Acre, Tripolis, Ani, Brandenburg, Plock, Goroden, Gyulafehervar, some other for sure) -> a title gives +1TroopMorale
    • provinces on the border of fierce conflicts, famous for warriors (eg. Kernave-Vilnius, Twangste-Konigsberg, Pereyaslav, Gyulafehervar, Dublin, Toledo, Ras, Tarnovgrad, Angora, Ascalon, Hamandan, some other) > a title gives +1 or +2 Dread
    • provinces famous to be centers of knowledge or culture (eg. Bologna, Florence, Paris, Dijon, Coellen, Krakow, Szekesfehervar-Buda, Kiev, Cordoba-Qurtuba, Fas, Al-Mahdia, Constantinople, AlQuahira, Damascus, Baghdad, Isfahan) -> a title gives +1 or +2 Chivalry with malus -5%tax
    • provinces that were essential for the authority of the ruler (eg. Roskilde, Rouen, Speyer, Szekesfehervar, Kraków, Kiev, Lisbon, Marrakesh, Konya, Al-Quahira, Jerusalem, Damascus, Tbilisi, Baghdad, Isfahan) -> a title gives +1Authority



    The Provincial titles - next version (3) - not yet online

    A guide to the provincial titles

    What is a PT

    A provincial title (PT) reflects the effects of awarding a noble title related to a province by the faction leader to any general. The benefits come from the rights related to the title, from the perception by the people, from having access to groups of people engaged in the management of the province, and from the land holdings and other money-providing entities in this province.

    There's always one title per province. It takes the form of an ancillary. It is gained when a general ends his move in the settlement of this province and doesn't have any other PT yet. Of course, it can happen only if there's no other general having that PT. A PT is transferable from one general to another. Due to this fact and due to the M2TW engine features it's technically it is possible that a general has more than one PT. However, the player should follow a house-rule: one FM - one PT. This is actually beneficial for the player: possession of a title impacts often on acquiring good traits by the generals. Many PTs on one general would be a wasted opportunity for the other generals who don't have any.

    If a general loses a PT (he starts with a PT, the player transfers it to another general and don't give any other PT in the same turn), then he gets a trait stripped of titles resulting in -2 Loyalty and lasting for 5 years. If later he gets another PT and loses is again, then the penalty is much harsher (Loyalty -2, Popularity -3, Tax -10%) and lasts till the death of the general.

    Benefits of the PTs

    Each and every PT brings two benefits for a general. Because it shows a honor from the ruler, the general gets +1 Loyalty as a reciprocity. Furthermore, because people around know that this general was chosen by the ruler and has authority on them, it provides +1 Law while the general fulfills the role of a governor of a city/castle, what helps to keep public order higher and corruption lower. However, this comes at a price. First, granting the money-making domains to that general lowers the faction tax income from the province he currently manages by 5%. Second, the public security of the general is also lower -1.

    The standard set of benefits of a PT make them beneficial for any general: he’d gain loyalty and be better at keeping public order and lowering corruption. However, the additional benefits enable specialization of the generals. They’re usually lumped together so that a particular PT is valuable either for a governor or for a leader of an army. Since they’re transferable, it is possible for the player to swap them between generals fulfilling particular tasks.

    A general governing a province can keep public order thanks to higher popularity provided by many PTs (in addition to the other factors impacting public order: law, chivalry, dread). They usually go with some benefits for income which offset the loss of tax income (due to -5% Tax standard effect attached to each PT). Some PTs give large buffs to trade (10%, 20% and even 30%) and should be given to the governors of the trade-making province. A few PTs give +20% mining (the exceptional ones even +40%) so a governor of a province with mines should have them, otherwise this benefit is entirely lost. The agriculture benefit is useful for any province and +2 farming usually means 100-140 florins more.

    The generals leading the armies can also benefit from a PT: some give +3 movement points, some +1 morale for all troops on the battlefield, some additional siege points and some +1 or +2 Dread or +1 or +2 Chivalry – very useful in battles. The fourth “war benefit” concerns Command while defending a settlement is, actually, more useful for the governors of the borderlands – therefore it usually goes with the “governor” type of benefits. One should also not forget that after conquering an enemy settlement it is needed to subdue it's population. To this end Chivalry and Dread (along law and popularity) are very useful.

    PTs may beef up the attributes needed by a general needed for other purposes. For instance, religious sites PTs give +1 Piety and those with sacred cities even +2 - so a general short of Piety will benefit greately. Many provinces (usually those with capital cities) provide Authority usuful for the faction leader or the heir. As mentione, + Chivalry is useful for governors who aim at speeding up growth of the settlements to upgrade them.

    For a satisfying and challenging game remember to follow the rule: one general – one PT. It means: do not stack many PTs on one general, even if it seems to be beneficial at a particular moment. To force the player behaving in this way, I'm thinking about transfering the basic benefits (+1 Loyalty, + 1 Law to the trait "titled". It will mean that irrespectivelly of the number of titles, these benefits will be granted just once.
    Additionally, since there's a relationship between features of a province and it's PT, it's often beneficial that a general carrying the title of a province is actually governing that province.



    Modding of the provincial titles

    Principles

    • The PTs’ benefits should reflect the “character” of a province, something it was famous for, or something people relate this province or the main city or an important place within. It should concern whole Middle Ages (not only 12th century).
    • At the same time the benefits should be useful for the gameplay: providing choice for the player and making him assigning the title to a particular general for a particular reason (eg. my Gdansk title gives 2Chivalry which is crucial for upgrading some cities – I was very happy to have it; another one for Pskow providing 10% Tax – I assigned it to the governor of a trade-rich province). Therefore many titles should have a “dominating” benefit (like 15% Trade or 2 Chivalry) or a set of benefits useful in similar situations.
    • There should be a set of “normal” benefits linked to every title, and some benefits which make a title unique (both for gameplay and role-playing purposes). The normal benefits are the same for each province and they are ambiguous: some positive, some negative. The additionall effects will only be positive and they vary a lot between the PTs. In some mods (e.g. Broken Crescent) all the benefits are the same but I find it an inferior choice for two reasons. First: it should be part of the gameplay for the player to decide which PT is given to which general so that the potential is realized in the best way. Second: since the game engine tends to equalize the number of characters with the number of provinces, it means each general has a chance to get one. Why then to bother of having the stuff which doesn't differentiate between generals?
    • The titles should not be “overpowered”, i.e. should not give too many benefits. This is to be reconed both individually (very few exceptional provinces, some good ones, most of them "normal"), but also regionally: PTs from a certain part of the world should provide more-or-less the same amount of benefits as the PTs from another part. Of course the SSHIP players come from different parts of the world and think that “our” provinces should have many benefits. This is understandable: we know ins-and-outs of history and each province is unique and great. But we should not “overpower” certain parts of the world. In my case I’ll try not to make Central Europe filled with much more benefits compared to, say, Iran. Of course, we’ve got much sources about England, but we should not assign 7-worth titles to every province there.

    Value of a title

    • can be summarized with a number. For counting this number, each “normal” benefit gives 1: Law 1, Popularity 1, Trade 10%, Mining 20%, Farming +2, Chivalry 1, Dread 1, Loyalty 1, Authority 1, Piety 1, Command while defending under siege 2, Morale 1, Siege Points (60, but may change in the future if a new Siege system would be developed).
    • A title should be worth between 2 and 4, very rarely 5-6, in few exceptional cases 7.
    • While modding I keep the regions balanced. The rule of thumb is: an average of worth of provinces in a region should be around 3,3 (This is not an objective criterion, it’s just my personal choice. I came out with this number empirically, after having assigned titles and adjusting them in a painful process).
    • The exceptional cases (7) should really be exceptional, so that a player may appreciate a title. These should be holy cities or significant cities famous thoughout the Middle Ages. The tentative list of those exceptional titles: Constantinople, Rome, Bagdad, Jerusalem, to a lesser extent: London, Paris, Seville- Isbiliyya or Corduba, Venice, Kiev, Al-Quahira, Damascus, Isfahan). However, this issue will not impact the inter-regional balance: exceptional case will come at a price of having more mediocre PTs in the region.

    Standard benefits

    • Each title gives 4 effects due to the very essence of any provincial title.
    • Gaining a title from a ruler means that this person is interested in the ruler’s reign -> every title gives +1 Loyalty
    • Gaining a title is related with the authority to keep order somewhere -> every title gives +1 Law
    • Holding a title for a province means money from the public domains goes now to the holder's pocket -> every title means -5% Tax
    • Being a politically important person means that this person is likely to be the target of the foreign shady deals -> every title gives -1 Personal Security

    Additional benefits related to the character or particular features of provinces:

    • provinces that were essential for the authority of the ruler (usually one will be assigned to the capital's PT of each factions, and also occassionally to the other PTs): +1 Authority
    • provinces that were famous for religious sites, monastic life, churches: +1 Piety (exceptionaly for sacred sites: Rome (thought it shouln't be useful in the game as the city should stay Papal), Constantinople, Mecca, maybe Santiago de Compostella): +2Piety
    • provinces famous to be centers of knowledge or culture: +1 or +2 Chivalry
    • provinces with popular lords: +1 Popularity
    • provinces that were centers of trade: +10 to 30% Trade income
    • provinces that were famous for the mines: +20% Mining income (exceptionally - perhaps up to 4 settlements on the whole map, Transsilvania, a region in Spain, Armenia, a region in Persia: +40%)
    • provinces that were famous for agriculture, melioration, feritile soils: +2 Farming income
    • provinces on the border of conflicts or famous for warriors: +1 or +2 Dread
    • provinces that were famous for commanders: a title gives +1 TroopMorale (exceptionaly: +2, eg. Smolensk)
    • provinces that were vast and famous of long travels: +3 Movement points (exceptionaly: +6, it will appear in the steppe provinces where knowledge of the horses, eg. Aktobe)
    • provinces that were famous for castles and siege expertise: a title gives + 30 Siege Points (possibly more if I develop a new siege system but it's the song of the far-away future)
    • provinces that were famous for strongholds: +2 Command while defending in siege


    Having benefits similar do the character of a province has a side effect: the generals having carrying those titles have incentive to be actually present in their respective provinces. (eg. a province famous for trade – a title give a lot of money from trade – the trade benefit of the title of this province has positive effects when managing that province).

    In modding the traits I'll insert posession of a title into the triggers for good traits. Therefore the players should indeed assing just one PT on one general - otherwise it would be a wasted opportunity.

    List of the benefits is closed - due to modding process it has to be decided at some point and then implemented.


    How the PTs impact the gameplay

    • PTs provide additional layer for role-playing / gameplay – until now a player was happy to get a title, kept it on the general who initially received it, perhaps appreciated „chrome”, but didn't pay much attention to its impact on the gameplay. A few players would swap the PTs between generals, but it was rarey worth the time and didn't make much difference for the game. This modification makes PTs important for the gameplay while providing also historical emotions for the gameplay. It makes the player carefully chosing a general for a certain PT since it pays off in the game. Furthermore, it sometimes (softly) prompts the player to keep the general holding the title of a province to also serve as a governor for this province (eg. when there's a +Mining bonus).
    • PTs increase specialisation between generals: the governor-types can have even more buffs for the income or public order, while the general leading the armies may enjoy much better field capabilities (this is reflected in the descriptions showing in-game: each PT has a suggestion what it should be used to).
    • PTs provide some flexibility for the player on the attributes like Piety or Authority: if a general need beefing up one of them, he can do it (admittedely, the change with the previous system is small in this respect). In particular a PT with +1 Authority will be within reach of each faction and it's usually of great use for the faction leader. However, it should be born in mind that Authority is important factor for acquiring some traits (like higher military education) and is deliberately included only in few PTs.
    • PTs create additional value for a player derived from taking specific settlment (eg. if he needs a good governor for mining then taking a settlement with a title a buffing up mining income is quite valuable).
    • The PTs impact on income is smaller in the first stage of the game since most of the income for a small faction comes from the taxes and every PT gives a malus -5% Tax. For instance, this means 100 fl less for a city providing 2000 fl. taxation income. However, this is balanced by buffs to the trade income (for many PTs it’s 10-30% which means that, eg. a city making 500 fl. trade income adds additional 50-150 fl.) and farming (rarer, but wold provide like 100+ fl.). Later in the game the higher-level trade buildings are built which means that the additional income from the trade increases. This effect is even more pronounced for mining since the benefit of is usually +20% (in utterly exceptional cases 40%). Provinces differ on mining income, but if we take a province which give 2000 fl. for the first level, and 3000 fl. for the second, then the additional income is 300 and 600 fl. respectively.
    • The overall PTs impact on the amount of money present in the game: roughly neutral, should the player use them rationally. This is because they already exist in the game, they usually give 5-10% tax plus other benefits (like 5-15% trade), what means that the additional money is already in-game.
    • Standard benefits of Loyalty and Law are likely to be more important for big empires. Ergo: there’ll be more impact of PTs later in the game. However, at the beginning of the game some PT can be potentially more important of income. All in all, the impact of PTs seems to evenly spread across the time of the game.
    • There're (more than before) PTs with + Chivalry benefits. Each faction should have acces to one +2 and perhaps one +1. This should make it easier for the players to upgrade their key settlements.
    • The impact on attack abilities for generals is perhaps more pronounced than before since there’re not so many war benefits in the current PTs. However, for some key attributes (eg. Command) there're no buffs. If a new siege system would be introduced, then the PTs providing siege points may become very valuable. Movement points benefits are limited in the well developed countries but more numerous in the steppe regions (like Cuman lands) to make the life of the factions there easier.
    • Depending on the further modding of the traits, the impact of PTs on acquiring certain traits may be quite big. Already now there're some traits taking them into account (see the GTCS)
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 31, 2018 at 10:37 AM.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (2)

    Current situation and the changes

    Based on the described principles I’ve made the modifications in the files (as described in the first posts of this thread). To plan for the modifications, I’ve made a spreadsheet with the current situation and the implemented or planned changes. Given that the TWC webpage doesn’t allow attaching such files to the posts, I present them here as the pictures.

    Current situation: benefits
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    Current situation: pics

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Changes made: new benefits and descriptions
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    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 07, 2016 at 10:40 AM.

  4. #4
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (4)

    Provincial titles’ names modifications

    Starting information:
    * read the FAQ in the next entry, please!
    * there are 3 PT ancillaries for every province: Christian, Orthodox, Muslim. The generic names are: "Duke", "Knyaz" and "Emir". It creates problems for Pagan factions and choices have to be made. For instance, Lithuanians use catholic names, but in history it depended on the period - in 14th century Orthodox titles would be more pertinent, 15th century increasingly Latin ones. For the moment, I don't deal with this issue.
    * the Coats of Arms (CoA - pics appearing in the game for the ancillaries) are the same for all three (Christian, Orthodox, Muslim), but technically it's possible to make different ones (what I'm not going to do).
    * for technical reasons (ie: to be able to have a ground for some arbitrary decisions) in this thread I'll artificially and arbitrarily put a geographical sticker on every province, eg. Brandenburg is attached to "Germany", Silesia to "Polonia", Chersonesos to "Cumania", Dalmatia to "Hungaria". In some cases, this can be disputable, of course, but this is useful for the purpose of this mod. This will help to determine which title should be used if two different standards from the same religion should be applied (eg. Herzog von Brandenburg but Comes Silesiae).
    * since titles of one religion will be used by many different factions there's a need to maintain a kind of coherence in naming. Therefore I'll avoid using the names which wouldn't be used in a kind of universal names. For instance, the Polish and Hungarian language versions will be replaced with the Latin ones (which were used, anyway). For Spain, all the names should be in Spanish, for Scandinavia in (Old) Norse, for Italy in Latin, British islands in English etc. For provinces which were beyond the horizon of conquest, I'll use the generic names, sometimes with pertinent adjustments (an Orthodox name for a lord of Calais? - Knyaz Kalaiskyi)
    * keep in mind that in the M2TW and SSHIP there're agents called "priests" (bishops, cardinals), so ecclesiastical titles ("Archbishop of something" cannot be used even if in many cases they'd be pertinent (like Archbishop of Estergom or Archbishop of Trier or Archbishop of Riga). Besides, it would be kind of funny having generals with a title "Archbishop" marrying princesses and having a bunch of children.
    * in this thread I'm also gathering information about provinces' and settlements' names for different eras, if seems right. These are just for the future use, they're not yet in the game, and also the high and late eras are not yet done in the SSHIP. If there should indeed be a different name in each era, then it's depicted as follows: Early/High/Late. If the current version has been analyzed and found correct then a name in bold-black will be used, if it has been found wrong, then a correct version is put in bold-red, if not analyzed thoroughly then it's not bold.

    0. France - is dealt with in this entry.

    There’s a province “Eastern Normandy”, but no “Western “. Why not call it simply “Normandy”?
    “Norwich” province – why not East Anglia?

    I. Polonia

    The title “Duke” is English, so not historical for Poland in the Middle Ages. If SSHIP wants to be historical, then in Polish “Książę” should be used. It’s something between a duke and a prince. Anyway, in the context of the game, it would also be un-historical. Another term used in the game now is “Szlachta” (pol. nobility, the nobles) – it’s in the name “Szlachta of Krakow”. It is fancy and I like it, but I don’t think it’s in the SSHIP spirit. And nobody but the Poles know what “Szlachta” is.

    Catholic: If we say that the provincial title should reflect somebody entrusted with care of the province, then the Polish title used in the Middle Ages would be the Latin term “Comes”. It's ok also for the other catholics.
    Orthodox, Muslim: generic "Knyaz" and "Emir".
    Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible.

    Names of provinces: should be in Latin, so some adjustments are still needed: Polonia Maior and Polonia Minor.


    Kraków (Lesser Poland)
    PT: Castellanus Cracoviensis - "castellanus" indeed appears in the sources and later it grew up to the most important title in the Commonwealth. Furthermore, using the name "Polonia Minor" could provide sometimes misunderstanding with Polonia Maior.
    CoA:
    Settlement name
    : Kraków. (this is perfectly right, even if different spellings existed)
    Province name: should be changed to Polonia Minor (introduced to name the region in 15th century, in the wake of the introduction of the Polonia Maior).
    If you want to learn more about Cracow, read this article.

    Poznań (Greater Poland)
    PT: Comes Poloniae Maior. I hope genetivus here is indeed Maior.
    Settlement name: Poznań. (this is perfectly right, even if different spellings existed)
    CoA:
    Province name
    : should be changed to Polonia Maior ("Maior" in this case meant "Older". This name was first time recorded in 13th but perhaps used already earlier to distinguish from the other Poland - that one around Kraków).

    Wroclaw (Silesia)
    PT: Comes Silesiae
    CoA:
    Settlement name
    : Wrocław. (many different forms existed, starting with Wrotizlaensem and Wortizlava, and 1133: Vuartizlau, and many, many others. Perhaps it's best to leave Wrocław).
    Province name: Silesia. (this is perfectly right)

    Plock (Masovia)
    PT: Comes Masoviae
    CoA:
    Settlement name
    : Płock.
    Province name: Masovia. (this is perfectly right, appeared in 12c.)

    Szczecin (Pomerania)
    PT: Comes Pomeraniae
    CoA: currently is that of Stetin city (I don't know when it was created, but I'd suspect 19 or 20 century), It should be changed into the Griffiths dynasty CoA, which ruled the province throughout the whole period (ca. 1120-1637): red griffin in the white field.
    Settlement name
    : should be changed to Stetin (no change of either settlement or dominating language: Slavic dynasty - House of Griffins, and the different versions in the sources are actually not so different. Name appears in the sources as: 1123, 1140 Stetin, 1188 Stetyn, 1251 Stitin, also Stitinum, Stitin, Stetina, Stittin. Note that the Polish name Szczecin should not be used because it was created in 19 c.)
    Province name:
    Pomerania (this is perfectly right)

    Gdansk (Pomerelia)
    PT: Comes Gedanensis (to signify the importance of Gdańsk, the biggest port on this coast from 15 century onwards. Actually, the city dominated politically the whole area).
    CoA:
    fixed in PTF: two white crosses in the red field.
    Settlement name: Gdansk. The name appears in various sources, starting with urbs Gyddanyzc in 997, Kdanzk in 1148, Gdanzc in 1188, Danceke in 1228, Gdansk in 1236, Danzc in 1263, Danczk in 1311, Danczik in 1399, Danczig in 1414, Gdąnsk in 1656. The core always stays and I think the most common is Gdansk. Only in the late Middle Ages we may use somehow germanised name, but it's not necessary.
    Province name: Pomerelia (it think it should be changed into Pomerania Gedanensis given that - to my knowledge - Pomerellen was artificially created in the 2nd part o 15th century to depict a small region, then it was mistaken in a few later atlases, notably Ortelius. However, more research is needed)


    II. Balticum

    Catholic: "Comes" with Latin names of the provinces, modified if historically justified.
    Orthodox: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi". If somebody would collect the historical names, please drop an entry in this thread.
    Muslim: generic "Emir".

    Names of provinces: I think some adjustments are needed.
    Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible.

    Twangste (Prussia)
    PT: Dux Borussiae (dux - given the importance of the province in the late Middle Ages)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Twangste/Twangste/Kunigsberg. (In the Peter von Dusburg chronicle: 1326 „edicaverunt castri Kunigsberg … (apud Pruthenus dicitur) Tuwangste).
    Province name: Borussia (the name in Latin seems indeed right)

    Riga (Livonia)
    PT: Comes Livoniae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Riga (also Ikšķile might be considered in the early era, but this might be confusing)
    Province name: Livonia (the name in Latin seems indeed right)

    Kernave (Lithuania)
    PT: Dux Lithuaniae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Kernavė/Kernavė/Vilnius(actually, in the early era we know nothing of any central settlement in this province, in the High era it's usually supposed to be Kernave - especially for Traidenis, and in 14 century finally the capital emerged in Vilnius (competing with Trakai). Kernave is close to Vilnius, so on the map no changes would be needed.
    Province name: Lithuania (the name in Latin seems ok, although I'd be in favor of version "Lituania").

    Kolyvan (Estonia)
    PT: Comes Aestoniae (it may be a good compromise since in 12c. this was a Livonian/Estonian province, then it fell to the the Danish and German influences so one also may consider Jarl and Herzog, however, most of the part was under ecclesiastical rule (a few bishops). For the Orthodox it'll be Knayz Kolyvanskyi)
    CoA: Settlement name: Kolyvan/Reval/Reval (after the Danish conquest in 1219, the town became known as Reval, the name comes actually from an Estonian word)
    Province name: Estonia (the name in Latin seems indeed right)

    Turku (Finland)
    PT: Jarl í Austrland (starting in 13 century it was the sphere of the influence of the Scandinavians for 400 years so this is legitimate).
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Turku/Turku/Ĺbo. (after the Scandinavian conquest of 2nd part of 13th century Abo's been a correct name).
    Province name: Finland (It's to be assessed but Austrland would be more historical given that Finland was a name given to a small area, and perhaps only in 15th century became the name of the current province. However, since this region will be in the Ruthenian/Lithuanian hands, perhaps one can leave Finland).
    Some interesting information might be found here.


    III. Rus

    Catholic: "Comes" with Latin names of the provinces, modified if historically justified.
    Orthodox: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi". If somebody would collect the historical names, please drop an entry in this thread.
    Muslim: generic "Emir".


    Names of provinces: I haven't reviewed the names of the provinces at all. I think some adjustments are needed. The Latin names of the titels are also created with limited knowledge, except of the three Rutheniae and Volhynie (well, I consulted the Latin version of Wikipedia).
    Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible (but Ryazan).

    Volodymyr (Volhynia)
    PT: Comes Volhyniae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Volodymyr.
    Province name: Volhynia.

    Goroden (Goroden)
    PT: Comes Rutheniae Nigrae
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Halych (Galicia)
    PT: Comes Rutheniae Rubrae
    CoA: ok - I've fixed it to be the right one.
    Settlement name: Halych - I think it's ok.
    Province name: Galicia.

    Turov (Turov)
    PT: Comes Turoviae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Turov.
    Province name: Turov.

    Polotsk (Polotsk)
    PT: Comes Rutheniae Albae
    CoA: I've got major doubts if the current CoA (a ship) is right.
    Settlement name: Polotsk.
    Province name:

    Novgorod (Novgorod)
    PT: Dux Novogardiensis
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Pskov (Pskov)
    PT: Comes Pscoviae
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Chernigov (Chernigov)
    PT: Comes Czernihoviae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Chernigov
    Province name: Chernigov

    Kyev (Kyev)
    PT: Dux Kioviensis
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Pereyaslav (Pereyaslav)
    PT: Comes Pereaslaviae
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Smolensk (Smolensk)
    PT: Dux Smolenscensis
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Rustov (Rustov)
    PT: Comes Rostoviae
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Murom (Murom)
    PT: Comes Muromiensis
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:

    Ryazan (Ryazan)
    PT: Comes Resaniae
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:


    IV. Cumania

    Catholic: "Comes" or "Dux". However, I hesitate if the Greek names shouldn't be used in some cases (Chersonezos, Tmutarakan, Azaq). Please comment, if you know.
    Orthodox
    : generic English: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi". The exceptions: Chersonezos and perhaps Azaq and Tmutarakan - with the Greek names.
    Muslim: generic "Emir".

    I obviously admit having little knowledge of the Cumans so if somebody has better ideas, I'm open to advice and proposals. I haven't reviewed the names of the provinces at all.
    Coats of arms: haven't been reviewed: I'd welcome a volunteer doing it.


    Iasi (Moldavia)
    PT: Dux Moldaviae - it was a province under strong influence from the west. Given the importance and ambitions of the rulers in the late Middle Ages upgraded to Dux. However, if somebody would find an alternative name in the sources, I'd be willing to change it (but not rex).
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Iasi
    Province name: Moldavia (I think it's ok)

    Sharukan (Chazaria)
    PT: Comes Chazariae - due to to the name of the province.
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Sharukan
    Province name: Chazaria (I think it's ok)

    Azaq (Lower Dnieper)
    PT: Comes Tanais - the name for Azaq used by the Italian merchants from 13c. onwards was Tanais, as it was in the ancient times. (I hope the case in Latin is ok: -is, -is)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Azaq
    Province name: Lower Dnieper

    Sarkel (Don Basin)
    PT: Comes Scythiae - there's a tradition of the Latin and Greek medieval authors calling this part of the world Scythia.
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Sarkel
    Province name: Don Basin (I'd call it "Don Lowlands", sounds better)

    Tmutarakan (Kuban)
    PT: Comes Bosphoris - according to the ancient tradition.
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Tmutarakan
    Province name: Kuban (I've got no idea if it was used in the Middle Ages...)

    Saqsin (Volga Delta)
    PT: Comes Saqsinis - following the name of the settlement.
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Saqsin
    Province name: Volga Delta (sounds ok)

    Aktobe (Aktobe)
    PT: Comes Actobae - following the name of the province (I hope the case is ok).
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Aktobe
    Province name: Aktobe

    Bulgar (Volga Bulgaria)
    PT: Dux Bolgharis - following the name of the province, but upgraded to Dux since this was the land of a powerful, well-established folk and their state. However, If somebody would find an alternative name in the sources, I'd be willing to change it.
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Bulgar (I think it should be Bolghar)
    Province name: Volga Bulgaria


    V. Scandinavia

    Catholic: "Jarl i" + name of the province. That's pretty simple once you've got the proper names of the provinces.
    Orthodox: generic English: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi"
    Muslim: generic "Emir".


    Names of provinces: in old Norse, have been scrutinized by experts in this (PTF) thread - look around entry #100.
    Coats of arms: haven't been reviewed yet, but in the thread - yes.

    Old Norse letters are used in the titles. You should read them as follows:
    Ţ/ţ = hard '"th" sound like in "thin"
    Đ/đ = soft "th" sound like in "then"
    Ó/ó = "o" sound like in "tool"
    Ǫ/ǫ = "o" sound like in "coffee"
    Í/í = "e" sound like in "feet"

    Jarl í Borgarţingslǫg
    Jarl í Gulaţingslǫg
    Jarl í Vestrgautland
    Jarl í Svíţjóđ
    Jarl í Smáland
    Jarl í Gutland
    Jarl í Skáney
    Jarl í Sjáland
    Jarl í Jótland


    VI. Germania

    Catholic: Graf/Markgraf/Herzog - depending on the historical observations, discussion done in this thread.
    Orthodox: generic English: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi"
    Muslim: generic "Emir".


    Names of provinces: thoroughly discussed in the same thread (link). The results are as follows.

    Brandenburg (Brandenburg)
    PT: Markgraf von Brandenburg
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Brandenburg. (since SSHIP starts 1132 the name should be Branibor at the beginning - it's a Slavic one pertinent at that time, exactly like Liubice. However, later it should indeed become Brandenburg, while in the Late Era perhaps Cölln or Berlin).
    Province
    name: Brandenburg (I'd use this name despite a large Slavic presence at the beginning to be historical later on during the MA).
    Initial number of citizens: ?? (I haven't checked, but should be very low)

    Liubice (Holstein)
    PT: Markgraf von Meklemburg
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Liubice/Lübeck/Lübeck (at the beginning it’s correct, but in High and Late era this should be changed.
    Province name: should be changed to Meklemburg (or Holstein-Meklemburg?) The bigger part of the current province is comprised of Meklemburg which developed over centuries. Holstein was just a small part of the current SSHIP province territory and half of it is actually in the Hamburg province. Furthermore, Lubice is on the map to provide for a city important for the Baltic trade and it was Meklemburg as a province (many cities there engaged in this trade).

    Hamburg (Nord Sachsen)
    PT: Herzog von Sachsen
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Hamburg
    Province name:
    should be changed to Sachsen.
    From the gameplay perspective, the problem is that three cities (Bremen, Hamburg, Liubice) are too close to one another.
    The result is a huge empty land south up to Nuremberg and west up to Coellen. Due to my knowledge, Hamburg hasn't been for a long time a big city given the Abodriten raids lasting till 12c. The for some time (till 16c?) it was still smaller than Magdeburg. Both for gameplay and for historicity, I'd be in favor of moving the settlement from Hamburg to Magdeburg.

    Bremen
    (Saxony)
    PT: Herzog von Westfalen
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Bremen (or Slavic: Brema)
    Province name:
    should be changed to Westfalen (as we stick to the names of the provinces with the German-speaking population to be in German).

    Coellen (Lower Lorraine)
    PT:
    Herzog von Lothringen (you cannot give a title "Erzbischof" which would fit here).
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Coellen
    Province name:
    should be changed to Niederlothringen (as we stick to the names of the provinces with the German-speaking population to be in German).

    Trier
    (Upper Lorraine)
    PT: Herzog von Luxemburg (to give some flavor to the title, and taking into account that you cannot give a title "Erzbischof" which would fit here).
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Trier.
    Province name:
    should be changed to Oberlothringen (as we stick to the names of the provinces with the German-speaking population to be in German).

    Frankfurt (Franconia)
    PT: Herzog von Franken? Landgraf von Hessen?
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Frankfurt.
    Province name:
    should be changed to Franken (in the wake of renaming Rhein; Hessen seems to be too small part of the province)

    Speyer (Rhein)
    PT:
    Pfalzgraf bei Rhein (seems historical)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Speyer
    Province name:
    should be changed to Rheinfranken (the name Rhein sounds very ahistorical indeed)

    Basel (Lower Swabia)
    PT: Herzog von Habsburg or something else.
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Basel.
    Province name:
    Hochburgund (it seems it's not possible to find a proper medieval name for the whole province, it's in Latin as it's on the linguistic border. However, is it not historical to have both Alamannia and Schwaben, while Helvetia is a Renaissance concept, and most of the territory is outside the medieval Swabia. Admitedely, Hochburgund was also somewhat south of the present territory. I maybe Helvetia?).

    Ulm (Upper Swabia)
    PT: Herzog von Schwaben or Herzog von Staufen
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Ulm (MWY says it was the most important city of Swabia, more than Augsburg).
    Province name:
    may be changed to Schwaben if the Lower Swabia is changed.

    Nuoremberc
    (Nordgau)
    PT:
    Markgraf von Nordgau
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Nuoremberc (perhaps for High and Late eras it should be changed to Nürnberg)
    Province name:
    Nordgau (seems to be a good choice, especially for the beginning of the game. The alternative would be to call Franken - Westfranken and Nordgau - Ostfranken. However, I haven't got a thinnest idea if Nordgau was used in the MA, or not...).

    Regensburg
    (Bavaria)
    PT: Herzog von Bayern (Pfalzgraf was phased out in 13c by the domination of Herzog von Bayern)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Regensburg (this was the most important and populous city in the region throughout the MA, surpassing Salzburg and other)
    Province name:
    Bayern (as we stick to the names of the provinces with the German-speaking population to be in German).

    Wien
    (Austria)

    PT:
    Markgraf von Österreich (Grossherzog is an own 14c creation, legalized also on its own in 15c)
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:
    Österreich (as we stick to the names of the provinces with the German-speaking population to be in German).

    Friesach (Kärnten)
    PT:
    Herzog von Kärnten
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Friesach (it was the most important city in 13th century, but then it collapsed. For the late era another (Villach? any other idea?) should be chosen).
    Province name:
    Carinthia (the province was still inhabited in large part by the Slavs, so I think the Latin name is a compromise for this border province)

    Utrecht (Friesland)
    PT:
    Herzog von Utrecht (or somehow different?)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Utrecht
    Province name:
    Friesland (this is a compromise for most of the Middle Ages, especially the early one. Holland, Utrecht were distinct entities, while term Friesland encompassed the whole region only in 7-8th century)

    Loven (Brabant)
    PT: Herzog von Brabant
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Loven. (Loven was the capital of the Duchy and perhaps most important city 11-14 centuries, only then overshadowed by Antwerp, and also by Brussels. Liege was an important ecclesiastic center, but economically played a lower role, I think)
    Province name:
    Brabant.

    Praha
    (Bohemia)

    PT:
    Rex Boemorum (well, since there's no Kingdom of Bohemia, you may use it for a PT)
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Province name:
    Bohemia.

    Olomóc (Moravia)
    PT:
    Marchio Olomuciensis (from 1182 Moravia was technically a march)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Olomóc. (that's right. A few medieval versions: Olomuc, Olomucz, Olomuz)
    Province name:
    Moravia.


    VII. Hungaria

    Catholic: I considered the use of the Hungarian term “Ispán”. However, because the title will be used also by other catholic factions, I've decided to use the Latin term "Comes".
    Orthodox, Muslim: generic "Knyaz" and "Emir".

    Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible.
    Names of provinces: should be in Latin, so some adjustments are still needed - tbd.


    Esztergom (Upper Hungary): Dux Stringoniensis (difficult choice since the lord of Esztergom was an archbishop and I don't want to use ecclesiastical titles. However, to underscore the importance of this title "Dux" will be used - unless somebody proves me wrong)

    Szekesfehervar (Lower Hungary): Comes Albae Regiae (no idea if it existed in history, but it sounds immersive)

    Varad (Pannonian Plain) : Comes Varadiensis (as above)

    Gyulafehervar (Transilvania): Voivoda Transsylvaniae (easy choice, he was very important throughout Middle Ages - it's a Latin version)

    Zagreb (Croatia): Banus Croatiae (obvious historical choice)

    Zara (Dalmatia): Comes Dalmatiae (we have to artificially create it since Banus Croatie was in charge of both Dalmatia and Croatia. It has the advantage over "Banus" to be useful also for the Italian faction, which might also have interests in Dalmatie)
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 14, 2018 at 02:23 AM.

  5. #5
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (5)

    Frequently asked questions:

    How do you choose the effects for each PT?
    Criteria for the effects of each settlement are well described in the second entry to the PTF thread. Character of the province is a starting point, then the effects are chosen from the list of the potential benefits, then gameplay is taken into consideration (eg. stacking effects good for a governor on one PT, and stacking effects for a good general on another PT - with majority (60-70%) being "good governor" sets), and lastly the regions are balanced so that one is not overpowered to another. The idea is to have an average value of 3.3 for each region (with some exceptions, like the steppe factions having more due to more movement benefits). Of course, I don't deny some level of subjectivity on my part, but hard choices must be made and if a player is not happy for a particular PT, then it's easy to change it by himself (I hope everything is well-described).

    City ABC was famous of xyx - you should add more effects!
    Yes, but at the price of lowering benefits of another region in the area. Which region do you propose to downgrade? Furthermore, I will not overpowered PTs, so the value of 7 is the highest possible.

    The coat of arms / pic for a PT is clearly wrong!
    Many times there's a problem of the historical period. Some CoAs were crafted in the modern times, while in the past they're quite different (an example is that of Smolensk: a bear in the middle ages, while a big gun in the modern times). I'm trying to find those historical for 12-15 centuries. Somtimes I cannot find a proper depiction which would be visualy pleasant in the game (33x41 pixels).
    In any case, if you've got some knowlege, please share and advise on the other solutions.

    This region X has been created only in SSHIP - in history it was actually a number of smaller regions A,B,C. The title didn't exist in history - so you're ahistorical here?
    Yes, but for the gameplay a title is needed and the title name was created in such a way to give a historical feel for the player.

    There was no such "X" title in history.
    Yes, but see above. It's to give some immersion for a player. It's better to be roughly right than perfectly wrong.

    Other considerations:
    I'm reconsidering the issue of possibility for the generals to have more than one PT. Actually, why to advise players not to stack PTs? They may weigh pros and cons. If there'll be significant advantages of having at least one, then - given that the number of PTs is limited - they will spread them, not stack. However, there might be situations when a player really want to give two or more to one general... why not?

    Some discussion on the names etc. happened here:
    - Byzantine Balkans
    - names of the Byzantine cities.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 25, 2017 at 04:10 AM.

  6. #6
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2 (6)

    I would like you, fellow players and history fans, to provide me your opinions, information and proposals for:

    • opinions on the system used, principles, names etc.
    • opinions on the descriptions of the provinces and proposals for changes (but keep in mind: these should be related to the additional benefits, it’s why in some cases there’s just “in charge or the land of forests and towns’, even if there’s much these provinces are proud with).
    • provincial titles’ names proposals for the other regions (Hungarian, Scandinavian, Czech, Spanish etc.)

    I will probably not change all the things in future, but some things I may implement.
    You may also make the same work for the other regions in SSHIP, and we can merge it together.

  7. #7

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    In my opinion Jurand, you are a machine! , i like so much your work and ideas for improve sship, these are little things amd improves but are great and historical and logical, for lovers of history and sship gameplay i give ypu my congratulations!
    I hope that Lifth and MWY see your work and implemented in next release, is a great improvement and also you save much work for them
    Also i would like see as you continue improve the titles for rest of provinces and factions, i like the idea of put the titles according to the historical province, their customs, importance in the middle age...
    I guess that i could support for spanish provinces and moors(iberians) and for other importants cities as Rome, constantinopolis,bagdad,london...
    Continue with your fabulous work friend, i will add for my sship!
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  8. #8

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Jurand this is going to be great! We should rep this guys

  9. #9

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Jurand any news about new tittles for other importants cities?i would like see tittles for the most important cities in middle age...constantinople,roma,baghdad,el cairo,paris,toledo,london,cordoba,merv,kiev... for make uniques cities and more realistic the game, for example make a important target conquest baghdad for its importance in trade silk, medicine,taxes...things that make uniques and logical every important settlement...
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  10. #10
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Jurand any news about new tittles for other importants cities?i would like see tittles for the most important cities in middle age...constantinople,roma,baghdad,el cairo,paris,toledo,london,cordoba,merv,kiev... for make uniques cities and more realistic the game, for example make a important target conquest baghdad for its importance in trade silk, medicine,taxes...things that make uniques and logical every important settlement...
    For the moment I don't have much plans for going in this directions. For three reasons:
    - I want to make historical modifications, giving flavor and immersion - to this end I'd need to know much more about the provinces. Futhermore, there should be a balance for the regions, so modifications for whole regions are needed. You may see at the the pictures I've provided that for Ruthenia, Poland, Lithuania, Hungary I kept the average worth of titles of 4, and only for Novgorod 4,25. But not more. So a comprehensive conceptual work is needed.
    - I would like to make something useful either directly for me, or for more people. I'm still playing Poland and I have interests in the provinces around. Other parts perhaps in future (well, I'm likely to have less interest in Spain and Causasus, given that I played long games with Aragon and Georgia in the other mods. Or maybe the other way round - I know the regions so maybe I'll make the modifications... I don't know).
    - I prefer to spend time on improving the EOG minisubmod.

    What's likely:
    - some fixes of the text in my modifications (spelling, bad English - I've already spotted a few)
    - maybe titles for the provinces related to the factions I know (Hungarian: ispan or ban, Ruthenian - probably Knyaz, but not everywhere)
    - maybe some fixes to Praque and Olomuc - although there's a mess in the file, much work to get your bearings what's going on code-wise.
    - maybe some innovations to benefits (for instance, I find the +1 Command while defending pretty useless in my games - I think human players always attack, defending very rarely. Since I think the provincial titles should be meaningful for the gameplay, I skipped this benefit. But now I have a second thoughts: for a border province it might be useful for a player to have such a benefit, but it should be massive. So maybe for one or two provinces +3Command while defending would make sense for a player to give that title to a general sitting in the settlement. I have such a situation in Krakow, which is constantly under threat from the Hungarians (while I don't want to take Hungarian cities on the other side of the Tatra mountains). If I had a title with that "+3 Command while defending" I could have choose between this title and a title giving +15% Tax. A game should always be a matter of weighting trade-offs and making choices...

    BTW - you've mentioned Kiev, but it's already been modified. Other modified great cities are Novgorod, and to better cities: Krakow, Kernave and Szekesfehervar. But the most unique ones are missing, I agree.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 13, 2016 at 04:30 AM.

  11. #11
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Just note that I'll rename Russian titles to make them more accurate (Novgorod and Kevian Rus)
    Possibly, Scandinavian ones too, depending on how fast I can finish my researches.

    Edit: About Russian Titles, check this thread. If you use proposals from there, please give credit to Alejandro Sanchez
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 13, 2016 at 04:04 AM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Just note that I'll rename Russian titles to make them more accurate (Novgorod and Kevian Rus)
    Possibly, Scandinavian ones too, depending on how fast I can finish my researches.

    Edit: About Russian Titles, check this thread. If you use proposals from there, please give credit to Alejandro Sanchez
    Yes interesting thread about russians...i give him reputation! I hope that this mod will be the most historical game in the world hahaha
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  13. #13

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    in this thread we were suggesting a title for the Lord of Ancona. as we stated, the city during its indipendence was an oligarchy. as we can't translate such a thing in M2TW, I suggest the Imperial title "Marquis of Ancona": before it reached full indipendence, Ancona was a Mark of the HRE

  14. #14
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by kaiser29 View Post
    in this thread we were suggesting a title for the Lord of Ancona. as we stated, the city during its indipendence was an oligarchy. as we can't translate such a thing in M2TW, I suggest the Imperial title "Marquis of Ancona": before it reached full indipendence, Ancona was a Mark of the HRE
    Hmm, I don't know old French, but a look at the French wikipedia suggests also marchensis or Markgraf or Margrave. Which one was/would be used then in Ancona?

  15. #15

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    hmm I'm not really sure because I can't find really much, but it should be something like

    Old German: Markgraf von Ancona

    Old Italian: Marchese d'Ancona (Marquis); or Margravio d'Ancona (Margrave, if you want the italian equivalent of the german title "Markgraf")

  16. #16
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    I'm not convinced by that title for Ancona.
    I found the Six Elders but it can't be represented in game.
    I found "vicars" but that's more a function than a title.
    I found "Signore" but can't be used before 1300 AD.

    I'm still looking for more info

    Edit: I found a reference to the title of Marquis. The Holy Roman Emperor Henri VI raised a German Commander to the rank of Marquis of Ancona at the end of the 12th century.
    Regarding the title in old Italian, I can ask a friend of mine (he's Italian).
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; October 25, 2016 at 03:27 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    I've received the confirmation that the title should be "Marquis" or actually "Marchese di Ancona" if hold by an Italian faction.
    For Spanish, it should be Marqués de Ancona.
    For German, it should be Markgraf von Ancona.
    For French, Marquis d'Ancona and so on.
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  18. #18
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Lifthrasir, for now there're three different titles applied in SSHIP: for any province you've got christian, greek, muslim names. How do you want to proceed in future? Dukes everywhere? Me, personally, I would rather apply local names (like Comes for the "Polish" provinces, or "Ispan" (and "ban") for "Hungarian" ones). You've alredy got "Szlachta of Kraków" in SSHIP, so it's the way I prefer.
    Besides, the names of the titles are easy and fast to mod, the more important thing is to have well-thought-out benefits and their descriptions, I suppose...

  19. #19
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    I'd prefer more variety for the "sake" of the immersion. However, I'm not sure that it can be done for each faction/culture. For instance, for France, it can be (from the highest to the lowest), Duke, Count, Marquis, with their relevant attributes. But for some others, I'm not sure it can be subdivided that way
    I'm more into animations and models for now. I haven't looked into this in detail yet but I trust your judgement
    So feel free to make suggestions.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: PTF: provincial titles’ fix for SSHIP 0.9.2

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I've received the confirmation that the title should be "Marquis" or actually "Marchese di Ancona" if hold by an Italian faction.
    For Spanish, it should be Marqués de Ancona.
    For German, it should be Markgraf von Ancona.
    For French, Marquis d'Ancona and so on.
    I'm italian too (half italian/half danish to be precise)

    "Marchese di Ancona" is in modern italian, I think that "Marchese d'Ancona" fits better for medieval purposes

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