Battle Mechanics v. 1.0 Feedback

[InferiorBeing]

Hmmm... I really don't see much of a difference...

[Sinuhet]

This is a thread for your comments, suggestions, found bugs and other feedback stuff concerning of my Battle mechanics for MTW2, version 1.0.

I have closed the "Toward AI formations" thread to prevent splitting of the info. On the other hand I let the "HP formations Feeadback" thread opened for preventing mixing the reports and problems from in some aspects different problem areas of the HP and the AI battle behaviour. Thanks to all people who participated in the threads till yet ....

As always, I am looking forward again to your experiences with the MTW2 version of my work on the battle AI. Let me know eventually your thoughts as previously also on these new AI formations and related stuff - either negative or positive.

Bye Sinuhet

[Sinuhet]

Hmmm... I really don't see much of a difference...

Ave InferiorBeing!

I can just quote my post in the thread in MTW2 General Discussion subforum for the start:

Try to play one particular custom battle with vanilla MTW2 1.0, then with 1.1 patched medieval2.exe (the switch is feasible by simple copy/paste - archive however both versions of the exe !!!!!).
Then install my mod via MedBattleSelector and play the same custom battle several times again with 1.0 and 1.1 medieval2.exe.
Then you could have a better insight what is really different.

BTW, I have never claimed that my mod will change the feeling of battle (on the both tactics and strategical levels) like when you as HP (=human player) or the AI would use H-bomb ....

Try the tests as I have suggested and then you will see the differences, problems of the 1.0 a 1.1 and what is solved via my mod in 1.0 and 1.1 respectively.

Trust me, it is worth to install it and try it, also with 1.1 it is working fine, but a bit different than it was originally designed.

point.

Once again, before we can discuss the complex and fine matters of the battle AI system in MTW2, you (or anybody else) need to have some experience with battles in various combinations MTW2 1.1 patched/not-patched with/without my mod (in fact it is now 2x2 factorial design of testing). I think that there is also necessary to have each particular battle played several times (i.e at least 2x), and that it is helpful to have several different battle designs (i.e. mixed army, infatry/cavalry/missiles prevailing type of army, siege attack/defend, bridge attack/defend).

(i.e. to have sufficient amount of data or even information to the matter we want discuss)

I dont want to sound too harsh, or force you to play my mod, but otherwise we would talk about nothing and it would be only wasting of our time ...

------------------

Concretely to problem:

The mod was developed and tested primarily in MTW2 1.0. This version of game have its flaws, from which some are notorically known already (passive AI, etc.), but only some of them is feasibel to diminish or "solve" via such kind of modification like is my mod - i.e. adjusting some values and creating the new information structures in script txt and xml files.

The most info we have form the MTW2 1,0 vanilla naturally, nevertheless I ahve done some tests with it to expnad my knowledge about the original design, mainly compared to RTW.

The second thing was to do adjustments and "port" my previous work from the RTW.
The third thing was to do MTW2 related only work.
These two things are interrelated and this gave me a lot of new information as for right syntax, potential of various data structures and the most hot needs to fix (this is better obvious by changing values "in blind" and see the effects, than only play vanilla again and again).
I am not in posotion taht I wolud like to share this type of info, but I talk about this to show you that there is something behind the all thing, which I ahve released after several tens of battles played ....

The results for MTW2 1.0 which I ahve been able to achive in the 1.0 version of my mod:
(I am quoting my previous post again)

This is not a complete solution for AI bug passivity in sieges or open battles ... It is not possible to solve this issue, which is in hardcode by setting some parameters in script txt and xml files ....

Nevertheless, the settings are now causing these new features of the AI:

1. The AI is more "dynamic", it is reforming more frequently and sometimes is also reacting in MTW2 1.0 more "actively" on the shooting from your archers

2. The battle results are unpredictable. This is very important improvement, because the battle results are not dependnet on the mutual strength of armies in the beginning only, but also on the good/bad decisions of you and the AI in respective times.

3. I have not touched the code in xml for Sieges, only several AI formations for them (the same is valid for Bridge battles). So there is open a huge area and theoretical potential as for changing the AI behaviour via settings in these files still further. This is the first version of my mod, and I and other modders will develop other solutions, which will be 100% more complex.

Taking together, with my mod installed, you can further complain on the passive AI, you can see sometimes even "worse AI", but sometimes the AI will be acting suprisingly good. The randomness of this is also one of the features of my mod (it is very realistic in the end, because in RL there is the battle result always dependent on the commanders - sometimes they are stupid, sometimes they are suprisingly intelligent and ylso you as HP are doing the errors and the AI will now be able to use it against you sometimes ...)

This was situation in MTW2 1.0. I have solved the passivity issue partially and used it to benefit of the thing on the cost of some kind of oscillation and more wider screening of situation and the AI impatience. There were ported some formation for sieges and bridge/ford battles from my RTW AI formations. And there was introduced the solution how to have the one formation for defence and one for attack - this was the most hard thing to find out, but the result can be now used more widely with minimal effort, but this is the bad luck of any pioneer ...

The situation is a bit different with 1.1 patch, however. The passive AI in open battles is rid off in hardcode and in vanilla 1.1 there is now sometimes opposite situation - the AI is wanting to attack in each sitution with the same tendency and this gives the feel of the RTW style of battles.

I will not state that I so genial that my solutions for MTW 1.0 are solving the all isssues in MTW2 1.1 - it is not possible anyway. But by chance the settings, which I have used (maybe it was in MTW2 1.0 platform more visible and now is hidden under the AI drive to attack), are giving a bit more variety to the battles in MTW2 1.1. The really good thing is the better decision if to use missiles firstly and give you heavy causulties by this way (and give you to movement by this) or directly attack with infantry and cavalry from the side of the AI, and also better reactions related to the HumanPlayer actions on the whole battlefield. These two benefits are the main differences which are unwillingly created in combination my mod + MTW2 1.1.

Concretely, try to see what is doing the AI army from its perspective (camera behind the AI backs) with your army let staying - see the behaviour of cavalry related to infantry, and missiles versus non-missiles - you sholud see "new" things compared to vanilla, more vaiety in decision making, less retreats and attacking again on the long distances, which creates for the AI army tired beggers in opposite to your fresh guys ...

The second benefit you will se if you will decide to do a flanking manevour on the artillery behind the back rows of the AI. The whole AI army is reacting accordingly - it is seeing now the main group of your army and also your flanking cavalry .... Before 1.1 patch it was possible to do the stealth attacks of this kind without any doubts that the AI will react on it. In MTW2 1.1 vanilla the AI army is often attacking your main group only and lets the artillery unprotect ....

These two things are a bit subjective maybe, but I think that they are there objectivelly too. I will do other testing, if they can be still augmented ... Nevertheless, I dont state that it is only my work. No, my mod is only using this newly introduced behaviour in the MTW2 1.1 vanilla more efficiently ...

Bye Sinuhet

[lonelord]

First of all, thanks for your efforts.

I've been waiting for a mod like this, since this is the type of mod that made RTW playable for me (got bored of the static battle AI very quickly).

Sadly I have not had much time to test the AI. However, the new AI formations alone are a blessing, reducing the monotony of the battles. I have seen some great AI maneuvers, but I am not sure if that is due to the patch, the mod, or both put together.

Playing as England v Scotland in the campaign. My army was longbow heavy and the Scots had a lot of Border Horses. After the initial skirmish, I had my Archers retreat behind my lines of infrantry. While I initially had my Mailed Knights back to cover the flanks of my Archers, I soon committed them to a charge to force a rout in the engaged enemy infantry. However, I was extremely suprised as the AI charges 3 units of Border Horses from far out into my archers - routing them before my slower Mailed Knights could counter. This was a brilliant AI maneuver which I did not expect at all. In the end i did win the battle, but lost 75% of my Longbowmen, which was an expensive loss at the time.

I'll keep playing with your mod and keep you posted on the AI's actions.

Thanks for your mod
-Lonelord

[Sinuhet]

First of all, thanks for your efforts.

I've been waiting for a mod like this, since this is the type of mod that made RTW playable for me (got bored of the static battle AI very quickly).

Sadly I have not had much time to test the AI. However, the new AI formations alone are a blessing, reducing the monotony of the battles. I have seen some great AI maneuvers, but I am not sure if that is due to the patch, the mod, or both put together.

Playing as England v Scotland in the campaign. My army was longbow heavy and the Scots had a lot of Border Horses. After the initial skirmish, I had my Archers retreat behind my lines of infrantry. While I initially had my Mailed Knights back to cover the flanks of my Archers, I soon committed them to a charge to force a rout in the engaged enemy infantry. However, I was extremely suprised as the AI charges 3 units of Border Horses from far out into my archers - routing them before my slower Mailed Knights could counter. This was a brilliant AI maneuver which I did not expect at all. In the end i did win the battle, but lost 75% of my Longbowmen, which was an expensive loss at the time.

I'll keep playing with your mod and keep you posted on the AI's actions.

Thanks for your mod
-Lonelord

Ave Lonelord!

Thanks for your positive feed back.
As for the cause of the AI desired behaviour in battles I hope that it is result of combiantion of both my mod and MTW2 1.1 patch, but positive effect of my mod is to large extent independent on the 1.1 patch because this version of my mod was developed on the MTW2 1.0 platform, with an aim to improve the behaviour despite the AI passivity etc.

I will apreciate also negative feedback in this stage of development maybe it is still more important than the positive one ... I am testing new possiblities for new version, but I wolud be glad to have some bug reports also to can fix them in the new version of this my mod ...

Bye Sinuhet

[lonelord]

After a bit more playing I've noticed a slight problem with the AI being passive. I don't know exactly if it is CA's fault or perhaps something do to with the mod.

It seems to me that every time the enemy has close to the same amount of archers as I, then it will act passively. I've been playing a great English campaign lately, and of course as the English I always have about 6 units of longbowmen. Often times these longbowmen have their first silver chevron and the second armor upgrade. The enemy army might have 6 units of a combination of Mercenary Crossbowmen and Peasant Archers.

In Vanilla M2TW 1.1 I've noticed that the enemy tries to skirmish you (move his archers in range while keeping the rest of his units back). This is foolish when their archers are drasticly outclassed. Seriously, Peasant Archers stand no chance against high experience longbowmen or even yeoman archers. Now while this is what I've experienced, this might not be always true, or it might even be a rare occurance; I've actually not played many Vanilla battles with patch 1.1 since a couple days after getting 1.1 I got your mod and have been using it since.

However, with patch 1.1 and your mod something else is occuring. When the enemy has an equal number of archers he will just sit there and let me fire at him.

I have two pictures from my last battle:



(Sorry, text ended up a bit blurry due to compression)

The enemy has his archers in the 3rd (last) row. This is a good position when facing an infantry/cavalry heavy oponent, or if they were to advance on my ranks. But they don't do anything. They just sit there, and let my archers empty their quivers into their bodies. Im wondering if perhaps this is a conflict between the new formations and the skirmish routine the usually do?

However, on a good note, when the enemy is faced with clear archer numerical superiority, then 90% of the time they will close the distance quickly to my ranks, often times trying to catch my archers unaware with their light cavalry.

Sinuhet, I'm not sure if any of this is even due to your mod. Nevertheless, I figured I'd let you know and maybe you know/find out a way to fix the problem.

Ciao,
Lonelord

[lonelord]

argh, sorry... double post

[Valakov]

Sinuhet -

I have ran your files through a complete campaign now- and have had mixed results - as you your self have stated would happen -ill agree with the above poster when it comes to "missle heavy" ai armies (call it 30ish% or more of the ai army comprised of various missle types) - even when they have a decent amount of calvery, they have a large tendancy to go passive IF both armies are in range of each other on battle start. - you can walk your missle troops up to with in a few yards of the enemy with impunity - the missle troops will fire, but the infantry/calvery will calmly let themselves turn into pin cushions.

as for the HP formations - i hate to say it but i gennerally set up troops in my own way - i did see some interesting possiblilites (nice archer box formation in there for stakes btw) but in the main i end up with my own various set up's. (personally, still trying to set up a decent late era checkerboard formation when having both archers with stakes and gunpowder infantry - first line infantry, spread out to allow second line stake / gunpowder infantry line of fire etc)



The other thing ive noticed on quite a few occations is that the AI has a tendancy to create self destructive formations with its gunpowder artillary - it depolys them too close to troops, and as opposed to vanilla AI where it would not fire,(vanilla would have it reform, still out of position, over and over again) instead the gunpowder units fire into the backs of thier own ranks (edit - most notably culverin/basilisk models, but i didnt see many bombard type units in the english campaign either) - causing quite a bit of reforming (and some chuckles on my part - had three such battles where the enemy captain or general was taken out by his own guns) Again, do to the sheer number of possible formations the ai can develop, im not sure what can be done to fix the issue - but a widening of the minimum gap between back rank artillary and the rest of the units might help if possible - in every above scenario, calvery were the main victems of this effect - artillary was placed as the final rank in the army, with calvery directly in front of it. Ive seen the same type of formaion with "old tech" catapaults/trebuchet as well, but thier model gives a bit more innitial hieght to the missles fired, clearing the rank in front of them. Again, this issue is most often replicated when both armies start in range of each other.

ive also seen some very intellegient behavior as well, especially with the use of mounted archers (the french in my last campaign might as well have been decendants of the mongols for whatever reason) even going so far as to to position themselves flanking and to the rear of the left/right elements of my own armies for better kill ratios - with back up standard calvery units waiting on the enevitable attempt to push the mounted archers away.

all in all, it seems to be working better then vanilla - and hopefully with more tweaks and some help from the next CA patch- it will get even better.

as a side note, funniest thing ive seen since using your mod - a group of venitian musketeers charged! a group of my english knights not once, but twice in the same battle near the end of the game - they had a good line of fire, the knights were otherwise occupied, but it was still worth the price of admission to watch.

[Sinuhet]

Greetings lonelord an Valakov!

Thank you for your nice reports. I ahve found there a lot of inspiration. But I must apologise as for my slow reaction, because I am now doing something else (Bohemia minimod) and this project is for me for a while completely by ice.

Nevertheless, small reaction on several from reported issues.

The placement of artirelly and to sme extent also of the missle units is definitely the cause of the "friend-fire". CA has stated already in last versions of RTW that this problem is solved. But it is not true apparently. The problem is in a moment mainly when the group formation is in attack and have a composition of units that it is more long than in vanilla. I have had known this issue during the development already and tried to diminish the problem by default_melee_state settings for handler and siege, which are different for "defence" and "attack" formation. However, my whole solution right now is different from vanilla in rather more passive behaviour of handler and siege than in its extreme activity during attack. It is firing during attack phase only when it is sufficiently close to the enemy army. But it is also a moment when your cavalry is in this area and because the cannon fire is very incorrect as for aiming, your cavalry is also hit from time to time... Maybe the solution is to rid off the fire_ at_will from "attack" formation completely like it is for the original CA attack/defend formation or even change it to hold_fire (I am not sure as for wording of this flag from top of my head, but the sense is clear I recon), but this would cause diminished effectivity of cannons in attack apparently - AI is very incorrect as for decision making, when to use the fire on its own ..... BTW, in formations for RTW I have only atttack and only defence formations, and for attack formation I have for siege and handler block as for firing hold_fire and for defence formation fire_at_will in it - this solution has worked nicely and solved the "friend-fire" for "cannons" almost completely. Unfortunatelly, There is a problem in MTW2, that the definition of purpose flags "only attack" or "only defend" is not possible. My "attack" and also the adjusted original one formations are in fact rather mixed attack/defend formations from technical point of view. And I had to go, in the end after testing, in a bit different direction then in RTW, and I had let the handler/siege block without default_melee_state definition (the original solution by CA) in original formation, which is used for defence primarily, and default_melee_state fire_at_will_and_defend for my "attack" formation used for attack primarily.... If you are not lost completely after reading this all, now you will be lost 100%. One thing is default melee state and purpose flags for formations, but there is still another variable, which is mixing all together and have very (I say VERY) strong impact not only on "cannons"... I ahve mentioned it already above briefely. The LENGTH of the whole group formation is the killer. During development of MTW2 formaions I have had a lot "night seances" due to this fact and it was in one moment also the thing, which have tend me to think that I will not be able to do good formtions for MTW2 at all. Yes it is simple to change some settings in original Attack/defence fromations (type of units, its placement etc.), but these changes MUST BE sufficiently small, mainly as for LENGTH of formation because otherwise you give CTDs during sieges and bridge battles ....
Yes, CA has implemnted a lot ofnew template formations for sieges and bridge battles, but it is again half done - the AI army and also HP army in deployment are further using DEFEND formation massively ..... Everything is related to everything apparently in MTW2 AI formaions... So, the length of formation is defined mainly from other reasons as is, and this ahve undesired effect as for placement of the handler/siege in "defence" formation and because of structure of my new "attack" formation still more in attack phase.... The "attack" formaions is constructed sufficiently Universal to cover all types of armies as for units composition and the placement of handler/siege backwards seems to me optimal ..... However, in some situations it is too back... It is not firing when the enemy army is far away and it is firing to the own cavalry then from time to time. This a compromise, which I ahve to do to have it theoretically the best with the constraints, which CA ahs give to us with its "only one attack/defend" fromation design of hardcode. I ahve managed to do something what they dont count with - to define one special formaion for attack primarily (I am proud on it the most from all my work on MTW2 AI formations), but more then one such foramtion is not possible and it then sometimes very long with cannons too backwards.... Theoretically, you can solve it by chnging the fire distance of handler and sige in EDU (and maybe in some toher file, I dont tested it till yet). But as for only AI formations point of view it is given thing.....


If you are not tired with this essay - the second reported problem:
the "missile heavy" armies are "passive" and are resembling the old bug (passive AI bug). But it is only similar. I must state again, that I am not some genius, but I ahve done some balancing for bugged MTW2 1.0 and after introduction of patch 1.1 several of these things are doing very nice results (and for me also suprising ones, i.e. it was not intended, but it is great). With patch 1.1 amy battle mechanics is doing something what CA has not intended in such extent, or better say - they have intended it but with my settings it si still better apparent and more effective. It is possible to grasp, why this synergism - I ahve tuned the settings very carefully to dimins the undesired behaviour in MTW2 1.0, and with introduction of MTW2 1.1 these things are not so apparent.....
So, concretely to missile behaviour - you must see the bar right on the screen as for causulties of yours and enemy. If your army is getting heavy causulties by "only" firing, then the AI decides to "be passive" and fire t you all its voleys ... If the firing phase is in favour of yours, the AI is then starting the classical mellee attack. At first with cavalry (if you have missiles in front lines, then the AI cavalry is going mainly against them) and then infantry assault.... Somebody will prefer to ahve only melees and will be bored with the AI which is smart and is firing to you, but I personally prefer to have the AI which is doing decisions and is not acting always the same..... THis is main pattern of behaviour, but sometimes it isnot acting like this, also sometimes ther is undesired behaviour, but it is also a feature which gives to realism of my solutions, because also your opponent can do bad decisions, not only you ...

So, altoghether, my solutions are not 100% always, but sometimes are doing very nice results, which you will not see in vanilla (neither in MTW2 1.0 nor with patch 1.1). There is an area to improve a lot of things, but a lot of other things is difficult to surpass, because of hardcode limitations and some things are desired features in fact, but only a lot of different compared to vanilla battle AI ...

I will try to do some otehr research on this in future, butnow I am doing something else....

Bye and thanks for reports. Sinuhet

[Valakov]

thanks for the work and reply Sinuhet -

if i understand correctly then, a change to the artillary placement of say a few more yards/meters etc back minimum would cause more issues then it solves?

nice explination on the ai missle units and the seemingly passive attitude of the rest of the army - poissible to change the ai's thought as to what is a acceptable kill to death ratio when in a missle duel? - quite a few times the kill rate is 3:1 in my favour and the ai still stays "passive" - again, most often when starting "in range" and when the ai feilds 30% or so missle troops.

[Sinuhet]

thanks for the work and reply Sinuhet -

if i understand correctly then, a change to the artillary placement of say a few more yards/meters etc back minimum would cause more issues then it solves?

nice explination on the ai missle units and the seemingly passive attitude of the rest of the army - poissible to change the ai's thought as to what is a acceptable kill to death ratio when in a missle duel? - quite a few times the kill rate is 3:1 in my favour and the ai still stays "passive" - again, most often when starting "in range" and when the ai feilds 30% or so missle troops.

Thanks for reply, Lord Valakov!

Well, I will have to see on this in more detail later. 100%. But later, because I am now doing things related to campaign .....

Thanks for your suggestions, these are weak points of my work, no doubts ....

Bye Sinuhet.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Hi Sinuhet

I've been using the Battle mechanics for a while now and mostly very pleased however recently when going onto the battlemap against the Mongols I would get a crash. Reload and OK, then a couple of turns latter same thing again. Always against Mongols and always the battle would play OK after reload.

Using Medieval Lite mod for bugfixes and a couple lightly modified files, but I don't think the problems with them. Playing as Byz Empire.

[Sinuhet]

Hi Sinuhet

I've been using the Battle mechanics for a while now and mostly very pleased however recently when going onto the battlemap against the Mongols I would get a crash. Reload and OK, then a couple of turns latter same thing again. Always against Mongols and always the battle would play OK after reload.

Using Medieval Lite mod for bugfixes and a couple lightly modified files, but I don't think the problems with them. Playing as Byz Empire.

Hi Nebuchadnezzar!

I am sorry that I am replying after 3 days, but i ahve now some other priorities in TW than formations. Nevertheless, I would suggest to you to try some other AI formations or the other modified files in this my mod, ideally the original ones by CA. If the crashes will not continue than I cannot to help you too much right now, because it is possible that the cause is hidden in my bad code, but I dont know where to start to search the error exactly and it wolud be time consuming, so later .... Otherwise it is unrelated to my mod... I ahve got hundreds of CTDs without any trace in logs during my development of this version for MTW2, more than during developing AI formations in RTW, so I cannot rule out, that there is some confilict with hardcode and my newly defined code in these script files ..... I am sorry for eventual inconveniences with this my mod, but I have done it as I was able in that time, but it is worth of other improvements 100% ....

Bye, Sinuhet

[kleemann]

You have created interrestin formations but you should creat icons for these formations too. Actually it is very simple. data/ui/interface and choose right interface texture.

[Sinuhet]

You have created interrestin formations but you should creat icons for these formations too. Actually it is very simple. data/ui/interface and choose right interface texture.

Greetings kleemann!

Thank you for suggestion. But I am completely incompetent as for graphics modding. I ahve asked in past one modder to do such interface for my Human player formations in RTW - it is included in SPQR ... Nevertheless, I think that it is only minor issue, to have the inappropriate vanilla graphics in MTW2. But if anybody will be so nice to do it also like they were in RTW, I wolud be very grateful to him, on the other hand.

Bye, Sinuhet