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Thread: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

  1. #1

    Default What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Just spent ages looking through PFM to find out. The only effect related to it that i found was that it drops movement speed by 25%.

    So many people swear by Yari Wall, and i've seen lots of people claim they can beat samurai 1v1 in Wall formation...but it doesn't seem to have any effect (besides packing the units together, which makes AI archers even more ridiculous).

    Besides testing it lately, it's really not something i bother with. It's also got an annoying habit of making infantry act even more stupid, since once they finish a fight they'll stand there facing the direction they were when the fight stopped (so if the enemy routed through them, they'll be sat there facing the oppsite way they were to begin with).

    Another awful formation i couldn't find anything on: Wedge...but then i've never seen anyone claim Wedge as anything other than useless, from Rome to Shogun 2.

    Is there something i'm missing?

  2. #2

    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    You are missing enable defence stance

  3. #3
    moshedz's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    It has them all form into like a Phalanx. A enemy must go through 4 or so lines of yaris, and they are in echelon. Most units will get shredded by it if you DONT tell the Yari to charge the enemy. You probably had Guard mode enabled.

    People that tell the walls to charge end up with a giant blob.

  4. #4
    KEA's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Yari Walls are insanely overpowered if used right. Try the following: set up some five or more units of Yari Ashigaru (the cheapest unit in game!) to Yari Wall parallel to the enemy line and simply have them marching forward, destination beyond the enemy formation. The enemy will be shredded by minimal casualties on your side, even when he is fielding the most strongest Samurai the game allows.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    The essence is reach. A Long Yari Ashigaru in spearwall is unbeatable, a single unit as long as the formation and morale holds, can hold any heroes indefinitely. Katana units can't even land any hit, because they'll poked away before they're in slashing range.

    The thing is, its seems reach is not defined on dbtable in Shogun 2, unlike in Rome 2 or Attila. In Rome 2 and Attila, Pikes has 5 range compared to sword's one. Perhaps coded in the models itself?

  6. #6
    KEA's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    I don't think so, because in this case Yari- and Nagatina Samurai should win against spear-walls, but they don't. The spear-wall seems to give some insane bonus in defense that makes it invincible. Given that TW armies are modeled by the scissors-paper-rock system, this seems to be en error in design because at least No-Dachi Samurai should be able to break this formation.

    Modding-wise I would suggest to remove the ability because it makes recruiting any other melee infantry pointless. Slow marching blocks of pikemen anyways are rather European pike-and-shot than Japanese.

  7. #7
    Samittaja's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    Slow marching blocks of pikemen anyways are rather European pike-and-shot than Japanese.
    As far as I know, the spear formations alongside the musketeer units became the most important unit in the late Sengoku Jidai period. So in my knowledge it would be the opposite, the Japanese developing a similar style of warfare as the Europeans after the introduction of the gunpowder.

    But I think these peasant soldiers replaced the samurais as the dominant force on the battlefield not because annihilated everything in their path but because they did their job well enough while being a lot faster and cheaper to recruit than units of samurais. Not mentioning only so many people at the time could afford to practise warfare and combat their entire lives, meaning the peasant soldiers would outnumber the samurais even more than in this game. But the samurais would still be killing machines, given the proper situation, so the samurais would not be entirely obsolete.

    So in historical realism, according to my knowledge, the yari ashigarus should be even cheaper and faster to recruit than the samurai units, while the difference in numbers would be even more staggering. The yari wall should be pretty much unpenetrable from the front, but if the short range is reached, the peasants would be hacked to pieces by samurais with no sweat. This way, the use of samurais would not secure the victory in itself, but they could cause great damage if they manage to bypass the spear wall. This would require something to lock the enemy spear wall in place, and that would be own yari spear wall. And yes, no peasant could afford a war horse, so cavalry would be made entirely by samurais. This would make the peasant formation the defensive, unmovable part of the army, while the samurai units are highly mobile, offensive part of the army meant for flanking action.

    Of course, I could be wrong, but that's the image I've gained by reading of the Sengoku Jidai warfare.

    But we're talking about a video game here. And here I agree with your suggestions. Having a unit that is both cheaper AND more effective against some units is just unbalanced. A good strategy games allows many different play styles to work. Shogun 2 allows that, yes, but this time the cheapest army composition is also highly efficient and very easy to use. It's more difficult trying to deviate from it than trying to keep it to the very end.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samittaja View Post
    As far as I know, the spear formations alongside the musketeer units became the most important unit in the late Sengoku Jidai period. So in my knowledge it would be the opposite, the Japanese developing a similar style of warfare as the Europeans after the introduction of the gunpowder.
    While using the same technology, the Japanese came up with a much different tactical system. Japanese pikemen were deployed in complex formations of very thin lines, often just two men high. In combat both sides would be charging into each other, so these formation were optimized for speed. This was much different to the deep pike blocks in Europe that were rather static and optimized for defense.


  9. #9

    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    I don't think so, because in this case Yari- and Nagatina Samurai should win against spear-walls, but they don't.
    Why would short Yari and Naginata win against spear walls? Those are clearly shorter than Ashigaru's Yari.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Quote Originally Posted by You_Guess_Who View Post
    Why would short Yari and Naginata win against spear walls? Those are clearly shorter than Ashigaru's Yari.
    The Yaris of the normal Ashigaru (not the long pike Ashigaru) have the same length than those of the Samurai, and still they easily win when in spear wall. And if length of weapon would matter in S2TW Yari Samurai should win against Katana Samurai, what doesn't happen - or for that matter Yari Ashigaru when not in spear wall against Katana Samurai, what they don't do either.

  11. #11
    Artifex
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Quote Originally Posted by EllEzDee View Post
    What effect does Yari Wall actually have?
    Yari Wall increases the tightness of a formation and adds an invisible wall that can stop cavalry/infantry charges. Besides, it does influence the walking speed (you can change that value though).
    It's not per se overpowered. With altered unit stats, pikemen will be able to hold the line for a very long time, but can lose in the end due to lower melee attack value.

    Wedge formation is clumsy and useless.
    My Mod:
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    A realism mod for Shogun II, Rise of the Samurai and Fall of the Samurai

  12. #12

    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Quote Originally Posted by KEA View Post
    The Yaris of the normal Ashigaru (not the long pike Ashigaru) have the same length than those of the Samurai
    Uh, no. Not even close
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Yes, that is the normal Yari Ashigaru. Long Yari Ashigaru's pikes are not crossed.
    It seems to put this once and for all, we need to create a testing mod by giving Yari Samurai spearwall, then swap the su-yari with long jumonji-yari, then at last with nagae-yari pikes.
    Last edited by You_Guess_Who; March 19, 2017 at 10:12 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Yes, you are right.

    I have just made some testing:

    Yari Samurai vs. Yari Ashigaru without spear-wall enabled: 118 : 163 casualties, then the Ashigaru routed
    Yari Samurai vs. Yari Ashigaru with spear-wall enabled: 151 : 102 casualties, then the Samurai routed

    It is the spear-wall, but this doesn't rule out the spear length as a decisive factor because in spear wall hardly any Ashigaru switched to sword while without the spear wall the entire front rank was fighting with swords. The Samurai usually didn't switch to swords. Even though the Samurai won the first battle, they still shouldn't have such a hard time because they had a lifelong training while the Ashigaru had not touched a weapon before the war.

    Now it's getting hilarious: the Long Yari Ashigaru come into play....

    Yari Samurai vs. Long Yari Ashigaru without spear-wall enabled: 154 : 152 casualties, then the Samurai(!) routed
    Yari Samurai vs. Long Yari Ashigaru with spear-wall enabled: 137 : 12 casualties, then the Samurai routed

  14. #14

    Default Re: What effect does Yari Wall actually have?

    Yari wall is indeed OP,
    as far as how it is coded it its beyond me.

    I've looked at the bonuses and none of it really makes sense.
    Ive also started to work with animations, and how the deaths or win rates are calculated is unclear at this moment, but I'll keep digging because I need to learn much more ab editing animations

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