Most distinctive armies of early pike and shot? (1500-1550 period)

[Inhuman One]

Very usefull indeed with those pictures yes, thanks.

It's still a tough nut to crack.. to bring it down to just the eight factions but I just know it can't be more or their uniqueness will suffer. I'd likely list the remaining ones as potential DLC material though.

I can also look a bit at relations between the different countries too of course, to maybe help decide since I will be writing a story for the campaign mode too.

It seems that Charles V would have been emperor of the Holy Roman Empire at the time, but also King of Spain. There could still be both a Spanish and German expedition send of course, and they would be allied in the story.
Charles V fought a war with the Ottomans, so that war would continue on this new continent as well.
The Japanese discovered the new continent so they'd get the tutorial missions. After their ships return to Japan, China could hear about the great wealth too and send an expedition. Naval battles between China and Japan could slow them down a bit.
The natives would be at war with all intruders in the story, or at least in the beginning. Their tech will be similar to the Aztecs, Mayans and such.

France was at war with Charles V too, so they could tie into the story that way possibly. Francis I actually did make a deal with the Ottomans so there's a nice connection there.
Venice could tie nicely into this too since they where also involved in the Italian wars.

Then again this might also just make it all a lot about the Italian wars with China and Japan seperate from that completely..

Speaking of China, I just read up on China during this period, which seems to have the Jiajing Emperor ruling during this period of the Ming Dynasty. And this guy send people to collect rare minerals to create elixirs that he hoped would grant him a longer life. That fits in beautifully with this game of course, he could send an expedition here hoping to find minerals or something that will grant him immortality.

Mogul empire could possibly be a good link between China and the Ottomans though.. might also be interesting seeing how Babur, the founder of the empire or his son would reign at the time.. I think I'll go with Babur then, have it set in the 1520's somewhere. Considering how he is considered a national hero in some countries it might also make references to him interesting. I mean he is already conquering and creating an empire, might as well extend it further to this new land, sending an expedition there unopposed while the Japanese and Chinese are undermining each other on the way there.
And through the Mogul Empire, the Ottomans could have learned of the new land and through them it would reach the west.

Seems England and Sweden would not be involved enough with the other countries I think, and at least word of it would reach them later. Making them ideal additions for an expansion that continues the story.

Mogul empire seems vital to have.. so it seems it comes down to France or Venice.

Both could play a good part in it I think. France as a rival to the Spain/ Holy Roman Empire alliance, and Venice being caught in between, occasionally involved and often trying to stay neutral and more concerned with the Ottomans under Suleiman.

Maybe I should go with both. That would also mean that aside from the natives, all factions could share a build set in groups of two. Spain and Venice could use a mediteranean style, France and Holy Roman Empire the western european style, Moguls and Ottomans the middle eastern style, China and Japan the asian style. Should still be some differences of course where needed, especially between China and Japan.

Yep, thats what I am going to do so the final faction list is:

-Natives.
-Japan.
-China.
-Mughal Empire.
-Ottoman Empire.
-Venice.
-Holy Roman Empire.
-Spain.
-France.

Seems varied enough, yes?

[DaniCatBurger]

Alphorns

Horns aye - Alphorns no

The Bull of Uri and the Cow of Unterwalden*

*The third's name is unknown to me.

[Inhuman One]

One of those soldiers looks a bit too happy about spearing someone in the butt.

[DaniCatBurger]

One of those soldiers looks a bit too happy about spearing someone in the butt.

It's a victim of the narrative.

Btw.

Do the archers in the center of the table not wear the cross of St. George or is it the cross of the Burgundians? I am not sure about.


Add:

zweihander wielding landsknechts

I have read somehwere, that the two-handed sword was the ordnance of the sergeants of the colour guard. These were stationed around the banner in the centre of the pike and halberd block.

[Condottiere 40K]

Too much mythology about zweihanders; I'm of the opinion that for the Swiss they were largely ceremonial.

[DaniCatBurger]

I agree. You won't swing something around like a two-handed sword in close formation.

It's not practical at least. It might have some use for special detachments.

A painting of the battle of Auray shows one used by the forlon hope (or whatever the adequate French term in the second half of the 14th century was) against archers but the painting and the battle are earlier than the period of interest here.

[Anna_Gein]

Imo the polish hussars deserve their reputation but you have to keep their environment in mind. They were the only purely shock cavalry of their times fighting with lance. Other Western cavalry were trained to use firearms before a charge if they charged. According to the tradition Gustavus Adolphus was influenced by his war against the Polish king when he reformed his cavalry to reintroduced shock over firepower. Frederic II of Prussia was himself influenced by Gustavus Adolphus when he introduced similar reforms to his own cavalry.

Afaik the Polish cavalry was the only European cavalry to keep their lance/spears during the "pike and shot" era. For good reason given the renew popularity of spear equipped cavalry during the Napoleonic Wars.

Do the archers in the center of the table not wear the cross of St. George or is it the cross of the Burgundians? I am not sure about.

It is the cross of Burgundy. The Burgundian fighters massacred including the one impaled through the butt wear the same cross.

Some archers may be English longbowmen from the ducal household.

[DaniCatBurger]

TheBurgundian fighters massacred including the one impaled through the butt wearthe same cross.

It's obvious that beside the propaganda there is a level of sadism at work within the narrative of this kind of crude illustrations. The confrontation of the battle line in the painting showing the battle of Aurey has similar elements (the men murdering with daggers the two Bretons* lying on the ground). However, Froissart seems more interested in the balance of the situation and and the parade of the noblesse. Cruelties and excess remain a quality of the lower states (the foot). I guess, both illustrations should be read as allegories of virtues and vices**. The next step in the development are probably Holbein's more naturalistic drawings of the landsknechts.



*One might be the Duke of Brittany (Charles de Châtillon) or the scene might show the allegoric Cain and Havel in reference to the Bretons fighting on both sides.

**Hybris (impersonated by the knight in the golden armor - Charles the Bold) in the Grandson illustration; the duties of chivalry in the Aurey illustration.

[Condottiere 40K]

The Swiss had a policy of no quarter on the battlefield, regardless of rank.

Though they may have just been in a hurry to get home.

[Inhuman One]

I still like Zweihanders though and they where used to break spears mostly and it does seem suitable for that. Ingame they could serve as an anti spearmen unit.

Gameplay will be similar to the age of empires formula but with some improvements made. So it won't ever be 100% accurate. It already takes place on a fictional continent.
Either way it will be based on history and not a recreation of it. I'll try to be accurate where I can be, more so than Age of Empires.

I'm planning to give some units the ability to switch between two weapons or dismount, likely with a cooldown to prevent silly spamming/trolling. That might give you an idea of how it will all be represented in game. Horses will likely disappear after the dismount animation to prevent game issues with the idle horses. Seems like a good way to make factions more unique as well while respecting their historic roles, and adding a bit of versatility to some units. Each faction could get like two units or such which can switch between two roles.
Some pikemen could just have their pike and be very good as anti cavalry, while another faction their pikemen could be less good at that but be able to switch to swords.

I'll likely have some formations in it too that might require units to be grouped only with others of their type. Formations seem important in this period's warfare after all.

But numbers will be small like in any base building strategy game. Probably a limit of 200 or such, with the natives being the exeption. They have less technology but more numbers.
I figured it would be best for a base building strategy game to go with a setting where it makes sense that such low numbers are used. If it took place in Europe it couldnt be, but for something like this it seems suitable.

I really do miss the base building strategy game genre, so hence why I wanted to work out this concept.

[DaniCatBurger]

policy of no quarter on the battlefield

I don't know. Illustrations follow the discussions and knowledge of their period. As you have said earlier, they are referring on myths. It’s quite a long way from the idealization of chivalry to what artists were able to realize at the end of Renaissance and Baroque.

Though they may have just been in a hurry to get home.

One could assume this. However, the illustration stands in the tradition of medieval illustrations about the combat against the vice that show the enemies of the virtue fleeing on the arrival of the good knight that represents the virtue. This speaks against a realistic interpretation.

[Salvo]

Imo the polish hussars deserve their reputation but you have to keep their environment in mind. They were the only purely shock cavalry of their times fighting with lance. Other Western cavalry were trained to use firearms before a charge if they charged. According to the tradition Gustavus Adolphus was influenced by his war against the Polish king when he reformed his cavalry to reintroduced shock over firepower. Frederic II of Prussia was himself influenced by Gustavus Adolphus when he introduced similar reforms to his own cavalry.

Generally I think that all this pistols and caracole formula was a dead end, simply because the fledging powder wepons were too uneffective and needed time to develope, while the simply mass charge tactic still had the power.
Let's remeber that caracole was mainly developed to let cavalry compete with solid infantry pike formations, but from the beginning was very uneffective. As the time progressed more and more people started to withdraw from this tactic and proved that fire combat should remain the strong point of infantry, while the cavalry should concentrate on it's strong points - the kinetic power of horse gallope.

I'll try to be accurate where I can be, more so than Age of Empires.

Could You tell something more about Your game? Is it going to be some kind of mod for AoE?

[Inhuman One]

It's just a game concept similar to Age of Empires 3. I am not able to mod or make games. It's likely that it wont ever become reality anyways but I keep having these ideas all the time and I simply have to write it down.

Lately I am organising it in greater detail though to actually be able to present it properly to a game developer or publisher if given the opportunity. Collected a little over thirty game ideas over the years so now I made a small list of questions that I subject them all too.
-What is it about?
-How does the gameplay work?
-If it has multiplayer, how does it work?
-What makes it unique?
-Why would people want this?
-What are the possibilities for additional content?
-What is the story?

And I tend to put some additional information at the bottom of the document with general info thats unique for each concept.. in this case I'd list the factions and some basic information about them.

But as for this particular game.. as mentioned it will be similar to Age of Empires 3 but with improvements to the formula.
Instead of four ages, theres four stages of development: Encampment, Outpost, Settlement, Town.
First stage all buildings are tents and you only have a small starting force, no new units can be trained untill the outpost stage that provides recruitment buildings. Starting force will be a combination of workers, a commander, some soldiers and something else like a medic, scout or other support unit.
A big improvement I am aiming for is walls being important. Soldiers can be put on walls for a defensive bonus and slight range bonus. Not every unit can destroy buildings and walls either. Maybe I'll limit canons to towers or something but they should somehow be worked into the defense as well. Stone walls will only pop up in the town fase though, before that its a simple palisade and then a wooden wall which can have soldiers on it.
I also want to change ships a bit, likely making them into objects seperate from soldiers, and requiring units to be put in there to man it. Any unit would do wether its workers, soldiers, medics or nobles. Only in case of getting boarded or boarding others would it matter if they are soldiers. It will of course be simplified.. A galleon for example could just need 12 people to be operational but could hold 60 people. Would be much more in real life but I'd reduce it for gameplay purposes. Smaller ships would require less people to man them and could carry less people. I think this will really help to add more to naval warfare.. which will be limited to few ships but they will have quite an impact. I mean sink a ship and you might kill a large chunk of the enemy army. Or board it and capture it to use it agains the enemy.

I'm still thinking about stuff like discoveries and home shipments.. I do want to do something like AOE3's home shipments, but I want to see if I can try and improve this. Likely putting less focus on this with fewer things available.
I'm not too keen on putting leveling in, but it would be nice to have some sort of progress to carry over into later games. Maybe unlocking some visual stuff like new commander appearances, different flags, a fancier appearance for your finest ship type, etc.

The commander unit will be different for each faction, and always limited to just one. Kind of similar to an explorer in AOE3. They can't die save for an assasination gametype where you lose when the commander dies. I want to give each commander a passive aura and a unique ability. The aura could grant increased movement speed, defence, attack, health regeneration or such to those nearby. The unique ability would have a cooldown and could be stuff like making a raft to cross water, converting an enemy, throwing a bomb, etc. Some might be good at the front lines while others would work better around their workers. Some will have a horse while others may be on foot.

Combat wise I want to try and go for a little more realism here than in Age of Empires 3. Hitpoints will likely be more similar, with no units being as resistant as a stone house. Armor and shields will likely play a bigger part in keeping units alive, but I also want to add cover into the mix to add defence bonuses. Aside from battlements on walls, soldiers could be capable of constructing some simple defences that would provide some cover. Maybe they could be able to plant stakes as well to defend against cavalry charges. Either way I like to add more defensive options to it so that it does not boils down to just charging with a large blob of your soldiers at a large blob of the other soldiers.

Economy wise I likely wont make it too complicated.. resources will likely be similar to Age of Empires.. gold, wood and food seems good. Maybe one other resource too that could maybe be used for getting shipments.
Workers will get to mine, hunt, make farms, chop wood and such. Workers will likely function the same for all factions though some might get a unique worker available in addition to the common one.

[hborrgg]

England would definitely be the odd man out during this period since they weren't involved in nearly as much fighting and were fairly slow to modernize. For the most part they would be relying on expensive foreign mercenaries with firearms and even when England started raising it's own arquebusiers in the 1530s and 40s they were still outnumbered by archers before 1550. When fighting in the lowlands in the 1540s it seems that it was becoming very apparent that longbows were at a severe disadvantage compared to the range and power of muskets and arquebuses.

They would also be relying on a larger proportion of billhooks to pikes for most of this period.

The French were still fielding crossbowmen alongside firearms for most of this period but the ratio was moving more and more in favor of firearms as time went on.

The Spanish were the first to field the heavy musket in large numbers starting around 1521, although the weapon had been around before then. Most firearms would have still been arquebuses. The musket was much heavier and had about half the rate of fire of the smaller weapons, but had far more range and power and could pierce pretty much any armor in use for the whole 16th century.

Cavalry with carbines or pistols didn't really start to become common until the mid-16th century, they mainly got their start in Germany in the 1540s. The Caracole with either carbines or pistols was quite effective against blocks of pikemen but as larger numbers of footsoldiers with firearms (especially the heavy musket) were incorporated into infantry formations the horsemen proved to be at a disadvantage. Mounted harquebusiers proved extremely effective at scouting and raiding, and if they dismounted to defend a strong postion such as a bridge or a forested hill they could even fight off heavy cavalry charges.

During the second half of the 16th century is when the lance vs pistol "paradox" started being discovered. That is where if reiter cavalry armed with wheellock pistols attempted to use caracole tactics or fire their pistols and retreat against lancers they often did little damage and the heavy lancers often rode them down before their formation could finish turning. But if a dense formation reiters smashed headfirst into a dense formation of lancers the reiters would win, as the lances lost all their power once momentum was lost but the pistols could still fire for maximum effect and were close enough to aim at weak parts of the armor such as the face or thighs.

[Cyclops]

AFAIK the Japanese were using a mix of noble retainer cavalry, archers and horse archers, and peasant spear and musket troops. Sounds like the late Mamelukes if you ask me, a little antiquated but trying to keep up by using gunpowder. They would of course have a very distinctive outfits from the lacquered armour and peasants in bamboo skirts.

Its a shame that its a tad early for the Dutch armies, in the second half of the 16th century they responded to the dominant tercio and caracole system of the Hapsburg power with their highly officered, often heavily armoured and fire-armed infantry who were extremely deadly in defence.

The distinctive systems of the early 16th century would have to be the cavalry heavy Poles, and the military castes formed by the Muscovites (Strelsy) and Osmalis (Jani Ceri). All three were departures from the current tactical approach in current use in their regions. Each has a distinctive look: the diverse Polish units from Winged Hussars to Tatar auxiliaries, the Janissaries with their famous white plumes and the streltsy with their uniforms, firearms and great weapons (IIRC they used the poleaxe or bardiche as their secondary armament). All three dominated large areas of Europe, forcing back both the difficult steppe armies that had lately swept all before them and the tough gritty European style troops.

[Knight of Heaven]

Kind of reminds me of Cossacks series.

[Adar]

Imo the polish hussars deserve their reputation but you have to keep their environment in mind. They were the only purely shock cavalry of their times fighting with lance. Other Western cavalry were trained to use firearms before a charge if they charged. According to the tradition Gustavus Adolphus was influenced by his war against the Polish king when he reformed his cavalry to reintroduced shock over firepower. Frederic II of Prussia was himself influenced by Gustavus Adolphus when he introduced similar reforms to his own cavalry.

Afaik the Polish cavalry was the only European cavalry to keep their lance/spears during the "pike and shot" era. For good reason given the renew popularity of spear equipped cavalry during the Napoleonic Wars.

Gustavus Adolphus tactics were most likely influence by the Hugenott cavalry and Dutch Cuirassiers rather than the Winged Hussars. Gustavus Adolphus father employed Maurice, Prince of Orange to reform the Swedish military and the Swedish tactics are more similar to the Dutch tactics than the Winged Hussars who would countermarch after breaking their lances in the charge. In many ways the sophisticated tactics of the Hussaria are actually more similar to the caracole than to the way of the Swedish cavalry that they faced during the later part of Gustavus Adolphus reign.

Regarding the OP: Swedish cavalry used the caracole between 1560-1620 and was traditionally heavy on light infantry as armies largely relied on free men rather than the professional soldiers used in Central Europe. Most battles during the Swedish war of Liberation (1521-1523) seem to have been rather confusing affairs where Danish commanders where unable to assess the threat posed by the Swedish rebels who relied on quick marches and intensive usage of crossbows. Later on Gustav Vasa would employ German Landsknechts to provide a more structured military but had limited funds to do so.

[Salvo]

Gustavus Adolphus tactics were most likely influence by the Hugenott cavalry and Dutch Cuirassiers rather than the Winged Hussars. Gustavus Adolphus father employed Maurice, Prince of Orange to reform the Swedish military and the Swedish tactics are more similar to the Dutch tactics than the Winged Hussars who would countermarch after breaking their lances in the charge. In many ways the sophisticated tactics of the Hussaria are actually more similar to the caracole than to the way of the Swedish cavalry that they faced during the later part of Gustavus Adolphus reign.

Yes and no

First I agree with You, that Winged Hussars tactic wasn't limited to the simply mass charge concept, but was more advanced and included cooperation with other cavalry types, but IMO after his fights with PLC Gustavus Adolphus noticed an advantage of steel over a pouder in cavalry warfare


Inhuman One
Sounds impressive! Good luck with Your project, keep us informed!

[Inhuman One]

Thanks, currently I am trying to determine what secrets this new continent will hold. I do want to give a sense of adventure to it, since it is an exploration of the unknown. So there should be things there that don't exist elsewhere, but at the same time I don't want to go too crazy with it since I think that would be offputting.

Maybe I'll draw some inspiration from legends of that period in the americas, like the city of gold and the fountain of youth.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

So in the first half of the 1500's we have the Italian Wars and the campaigns of Selim Yavuz and his son Suleiman the Magnificent.
I would make an important note about how Sweden had only left the Kalmar Union under the leadership of Gustav Vasa in 1523 and their army was quite pathetic.
There were also no Winged Hussars and the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth had not been established yet.
Though the cut off date of 1550 should be extended to 1590 in my opinion.