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Thread: The Origin of the Huns

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    Default The Origin of the Huns

    As often as this discussion has come up, I feel like it's time to bring an important question to the table:

    What the heck were the Huns?

    We've long established them as speakers of Oghur-Turkish dialect, which they adopted in the Altai mountains some time between the 2nd-3rd centuries AD. They adopted this dialect from the various Dingling Peoples who spoke Oghur Turkish, and prior to this they had spoke a Yeniseian language.

    But this in itself raises a lot of questions: the other dialect in existence at the time was Mongolic dialects which are closely related to Turkish ones.

    Yet neither the Huns or Dingling (proto-Bulgars) ethnically identified as Turks. The ethnic identity of Turk doesn't even appear until the 6th century. The Oghuz turkish dialect which they spoke appears with them

    So what do we do with the Huns/Hunno-Bulgars? They were from the Altai mountains, spoke Oghur Turkish, but did not identify as Turks. The best solution I can come up with is to totally throw out the concept of Proto-Turks, and classify the Oghur speakers (barring the Rouran) under a their own archetype: Hun.

    So we see a transformation of the steppes from Iranic Dominated (until the early 3rd Century AD) -> Hun dominated (2nd AD-6th AD) -> Turkish Dominated (6th AD -> 11th AD after which it is shared between Turkish and Mongol speaking groups.)

    Thoughts?

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    I'd like to play the devil's advocate a little and just throw out some controversial thoughts.

    First off, the languages: there is little concrete proof, as far as I can see, that the Huns spoke a Yeniseic language at some point. The Dingling-Oghur connection seems to be a common theory, but that is lacking in terms of actual evidence as well. Finally, the relationship of the Turkic and Mongolic languages is somewhat controversial. However, they are classified as separate language families. As such, calling them "closely related" is a bit misleading, although they do share some common characteristics (there are of course theories that they might have originated from the same proto-language).

    Regarding the classification, personally I don't see it as beneficial to label all the poorly known 5th to 6th century steppe groups as "Huns" since only some of them used this ethnonym, and calling them such would probably be rather misleading. Not to mention that most of these steppe groups are too poorly known to even be absolutely certain that they did indeed speak a dialect of Oghur Turkic (this includes the Huns).
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    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    How likely is it that the Huns lived in an area that was populated by many different similar people throughout history and literally disappeared off the face of the earth after Atilla and were abosrbed into other groups afterward-this coupled with the fact that the huns likely weren't very big on writing leads to the fact that we have absolutely no idea who they were. Occam's Razor kind of points to this idea. Don't think it will ever be possible to point to the exact people they were because now they are many people.

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    Well the Huns didn't disappear after Attila's death. The Empire split into the Kutrigur and Utigur Bulgars and absorbed the incoming Oghur groups. They were then conquered by the Avars who were a splinter of the Hepthaltites fleeing the Kok-Turks, and then some Huns went on to help form Old Great Bulgaria, as well as the Khazars.

    I cover that thoroughly elsewhere:

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    So here's a brief rundown of the events that led to the formation of the Post-Attila Kutrigur/Utigur Hunnic state:

    In 453 AD, as we all know, Attila died due to Cirrhosis of the liver. Attila had gained his position as ruler of the Huns by assassinating the ruler of the Eastern (and dominate) half of the Hunnic realm: Bleda. This constituted a massive political upheaval and led to the rebellion of the Akatir Huns (Acatziri), the most powerful Hunnic group in the East which Attila suppressed before it could do any real damage.

    Upon Attila's death his son Illak (Ellac) was the king of the Akatir Huns, which led to a succession dispute for the Hunnic realm: would the traditional method of rule reassert itself, or would the Western King remain dominant? The problem was that Attila had appointed many Huns, or Germanics, as princes over the various Germanic nations who had enjoyed the shift in Hunnic power. Chief amongst these was Ardaric (Ardareiks), whom Kim believes to be a Hun but is probably a Germanic appointed as a Hun prince. When Ellak brought the Akatir Hunnic army and the other Eastern Hunnic groups down into Hungary to assert dominance, this culminated in the Battle of Nedao where the Western Hunnic groups and the Germanics (Gepids, Amal Goths, Iazyges Sarmatians, Suebi, Scirii, Heruli, Rugii, etc) that supported continued Western Hunnic rule came into conflict. Unfortunately for Ellac, this culminated in his death and the weakening of Hunnic power in the Carpathian region.

    However, the disputes between Hunnic princes and Attila's sons ultimately began to untangle the Western Hunnic state. The Ultzinzur* Huns, under Emnetzur and Ultzindur, on the right bank of the Danube in the region of Oescus, split off. The Goths of Valamir, formerly a Hunnic vassal, also broke off, and went to war with the Scirii. However, the Hunnic kingdom, now under Dengzich in the West and Ernak in the East, was called in by the Scirii against the Goths of Valamir.

    The Huns were experiencing other problems at that time: when the Huns had in large part migrated out of Central Asia, they left behind many of their subjugated Dingling/Tingling peoples, i.e. the original Oghur-Turkic speaking tribes. These tribes would unite into the Tiele confederation, which included the Onoghurs (Ten Oghurs), Saraghurs (White [implying West] Oghurs), Oghurs (called Ourogs by Priscus... IIRC this depends on your translation of Priscus), Barsils, and other peoples. They were driven west by the Sabirs, who Kim suggests were the remnants of the collapsed Xianbei confederation and long-time enemies of the Huns, who were living in Western Mongolia bordering the Tiele Confederation in Kazakhstan (who bordered both the Yueban Huns and the Hepthaltite Var/Hua). The Sabirs were being driven West by the Rouran, i.e. the Central Asian Avars (not to be confused with the Eurasian Avars i.e. the Varkhionitai). This led to the overthrow of the Kidarite/Khionite ("Red Hun") Dynasty by the Hepthaltite ("White Hun") Dynasty, and pushed the Tiele Confederation past the Aral Sea, over the Volga, and into the Huns.

    In 463 AD the Saraghurs defeated the largest of the Hunnic groups under Ernak, the Akatir Huns (Acatziri). Faced with Hunnic resistance, they would turn South and raid across Transcaucasia in 467/468. The Onoghurs would settle, according to Menander in the 6th century, along the Kuban and the lower Don just East of the Sea of Asov and the Roman/Gothic/Akatir Huns on and around the Crimea. This was a perfect position for them to raid into Lazica, which they would later do. The Barsils, it is believed, settled in the Volga delta, while it is known the Sabirs settled in the Dagestan/Derbent region.

    With pressure from the East, Ernak did not provide support of the Eastern half of the Hunnic Empire to Dengzich, which would ultimately result in disaster. Dengzich marched South West and joined with the loyal Scirii of Odoacer (now back in Carpathia after an extended stay in Gaul), and with a surprise attack subjugated the Goths of Valamir, killing him and forcing Thuidimer and Vidimer to swear loyalty to him. The Ultzinzur Huns also quickly joined up under Dengzich. However, Dengzich had to rely heavily on his unreliable Gothic subjects, and the Bittugur Huns. In 466 Dengzich, at the height of his power, demanded a treaty and a market for the Romans and Huns to trade, along with other concessions they had previously given to Attila, but he was denied.

    Anagast, son of Arnegisclus who was slain by Attila at the river Utus, was sent with the Thracian Army (or what little had been rebuilt of it probably) with generals Basiliscus, the Goth Ostryis, and the Hun Chelchal. The Romans laid siege to the forces of Dengzich's Goths in a valley, after separating them from the main army, and sent ambassadors to the Goths. The Hun Chelchal persuaded the Goths that the Emperor had come to a concession and had granted lands to the Huns with them, but not to the Goths of Thuidimer and Vidimer, who promptly slaughtered the Hunnic forces. However, they figured out they had been decieved and attacked the Roman Battle line. Although they broke through and escaped, they suffered heavy losses from the Romans. Anagast continued his campaign with a force of Bucellarii for another 2 years, eventually resulting in peace and settlement of the Goths.

    The Romans came to a treaty with the Amal Goths and settled them in Thrace, but unsatisfied with their holdings the Goths attacked the Sadages (possibly a Hunnic people) who had allied themselves with Dengzich. Dengzich gathered the Angisciri (Sciri?), Bittugur Huns, Bardor Huns, and Ultinzur Huns with him and attacked the Goths at the Battle of Bassianae in Moesia, but was defeated and the Huns permanently crushed. Anagast, fittingly enough, was the one who defeated Dengzich (son of Attila who had killed his father) and brought his head to Constantinople and displayed it on a stake upon the great walls.

    Ultimately this led to the utter collapse of the Hunnic Empire in the Carpathian region, leaving Ernak as the sole ruler in the Pontic region. According to the Bulgar Prince list, Ernak was the founding ruler of the "Bulgar" Huns. Ernak subdued many of the incoming Oghur peoples, and assimilated them due to their shared language (Oghur Turkic i.e. Hunnic). These peoples, after all, had formerly been members of the Hunnic Central Asian state prior to 370, or of the Yueban Hunnic state. Procopius and Menander both record that two sons named Kutrigur and Utigur were given power by a single ruler. The names were eponymous, where effectively he took the names of the states and applied them to two real Hunnic succesors of unknown name. But the names "Kutrigur" (9 Oghurs) and "Utigur" (30 Oghurs) both clearly indicate that there was a permanent Oghur turkic impact on the Hunnic people (Xiongnu/Hunyu/Huna/Yueban/Kidarite/Khionite/Chunni/etc. etc.). The Utigurs followed the tradition of precedence, being the Eastern tribe.

    Procopius places the Kutrigurs in the "greater part of the plains" west of the Sea of Asov, while he places the Utigurs in the Kuban region East of said sea (with the Onoghur Huns). When Menander records that Sandilikh, king of the Utigurs, was contacted by the envoys of Justinian to encite him to war against the Kutrigurs, he replied that it would be "unholy" and "improper" to attack his fellow tribesmen. The Onogurs, also in the Kuban/Don region, were evidently also part of this Hunnic state, and finally the old Akatir Huns were its fourth component (presumably alongside the Onogurs as the subsidiary wings like in the old Xiongnu state). When Justinian recieves the Avar ambassador Targites, he also distinctifies that he will not pay the same tribute to the Avars as he did to the Huns before them, mentioning the Kutrigur and Utigur states by name alongside the term. These three peoples together seem to have adopted a new ethnic self-identification according to Kim, calling themselves "Bulgar", or that "Bulgar" was simply an alternative name for "Huns". Meanwhile Kutrigur, Utigur, and Onogur were not ethnic identifications but rather socio-military and socio-political organizations of these peoples (9, 30, and 10 tribes). The fact of the matter is that the term "Hun" did not begin usage as a generic term for steppe nomads until the 7th century theophylact Simocatta, who applies the name to both the Avars and Turks.

    However, Roman subterfuge, by sending gifts only to Sandilikh and not to Zabergan of the Kutrigurs, and telling Sandilikh of the Kutrigur expedition against the Romans, eventually caused him to succumb and attack the Kutrigurs, resulting in a war that broke the power of both halves of the Pontic Hunnic state and resulted in their absorption by the incoming Avars.

    Meanwhile the Onogur, Barsil, and other Caucasian Huns would have as much success against the Romans and Sassanids in Transcaucasia as the Kutrigurs and Utigurs did in Thrace. Part of the Caucasian huns would end up persisting for centuries, largely within the Khazar Khaganate (believed to be formed out of the Gokturks and Khwarzermian Var/Hepthaltites). Mentioned amongst the peoples of the Khazars, was a Hunnic hereditary state in the Sulak River basin.

    However, the majority of the Pontic and Caucasian Huns were swallowed by the Avar Khaganate. In 557, the Barsil, Onogurs, and the Sabirs (possibly Huns, more likely Xianbei) submitted to Avar Hegemony. They then swallowed the feuding Kutrigur and Utigur Huns, and effectively completely re-established Attila's Empire reigning from the Pontic Steppes West of the Don to Hungary, and defeating the Franks of Sigibert, vassalizing the Gepids, adopting Oghur Turkic as their language, and a new Royal Dynasty (The Avar Dynasty, rather than the Attilid Dynasty, just like the Gokturk dynasty overcame the Hepthaltite dynasty which replaced the Kidarite/Chionite dynasty).** By 568 the Avars had ravaged as far south as Athens, and by 584 the Romans were paying a tribute of 80,000 solidi a year. In 626 AD, they even laid siege to Constantinople, although in an alliance with the Sassanid Persians, and they ultimately failed.

    After the siege failed, the Avar empire split in half when the Attilids rose up against them. The Pontic steppes became Old Great Bulgaria under the Onogur Huns and Kutrigur Huns ruled by Kubrat, who in turn were crushed by the Khazars and formed Danubian Bulgaria and Volga Bulgaria (which included the Sabirs), neither of which would live up to the power of the Attilid or Avar dynasties before them. The Remnants of the Avars would be dismantled in 896 when the Finno Ugric Magyars under the Arpad dynasty would come into Hungary and create that nation. Danubian Bulgaria, another descendant of the true Hunnic state under the Attilids, would last until 1014 when the Roman Emperor Basil II Bulgaroktonos reconquered the Balkans.

    So give or take some stuff, the Armenian source Movses Khorenats'i is right. His description of the migration of the Bulgars was in fact the migration of the Huns, but not through Central Iran and not at the time FrozenmenSS believes it to be.

    This is the first mention, an event thought to be contemporary to the campaign of the Armenian ruler Varazdat:

    "...named Basen by the ancients... and which were afterwards populated by immigrants of the vh' ndur Bulgar Vund, after whose name they (the lands) were named Vanand..."

    The second mention is of the actual migration is thought to have been during Arshak III's reign:

    "...great disturbances occurred in the range of the great Caucasus mountain, in the land of the Bulgars, many of whom migrated and came to our lands and settled south of Kokh..."

    (Translations found in this piece: http://www.kroraina.com/p_bulgar/p_bulg1a.htm)

    So he is describing the coming of the Attilid Huns, and the settlement of the Caucasian Huns. Many Huns would raid down into Persarmenia from roughly 395-531, and it's possible some would even settle there certainly. In the time he was writing (he lived from 410-490 AD), the Huns were given or would be given the ethnonym Bulgar in c. 480 AD.

    This post largely de-garbles much of what I said earlier, so I do need to retract a few of my prior statements.

    I highly recommend everyone here read this book, for free, online:

    https://www.academia.edu/9609971/Stu...rasian_Steppes

    *Not to be confused with the Altziagiri of Jordanes, who do not appear to be a hunnic group but simply a corruption of Ultzincur/Altzincur: the title of a member of the Hunnic council of Six lords.

    **It should be noted that I am not suggesting this was a simple Dynastic change like when a new Emperor came to the throne in the Roman Empire. This was a violent subjugation of a rival nation and incorporation of its Dynasty into their own Steppe Empire. The overthrow of the Avars by the Attilids after 626 would be likewise comparable to the overthrow of the Arsacids by the Sassanids from 198-217 AD. Kubrat's Old Great Bulgaria, therefore, is not a direct continuation of the Hunnic Empire of Attila or his sons, unlike the Kutrigur/Utigur Bulgars, but could be considered a successor state.
    Although I regret calling Old Great Bulgaria a Hun successor state. It's likely Kubrat's dynasty was different from the Attilid dynasty, since IIRC the Onogurs appear to he the leading group in the Steppe Bulgar Dualist system.
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; September 17, 2016 at 12:39 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    What is the base for Yeniseian language of Huns? I checked out the wiki. Its seems like its based on one sentence of one small tribe that has founded a state in China which as far as I see is not even proven to be a Hunnic tribe. Even if they were Huns and spoke a Yeniseian language is it enough to make a grand claim of how Huns were Yeniseian in entirety and adopted Turkic from other people? But of course there is no doubt that Siberian people such as Yeniseian speakers played a bigger role during the early stages of non-Iranian nomadic expansion at the eastern steppes until they were outnumbered and subjugated by Turkic and Mongolic speakers.

    I still repeat my opinion that I mentioned in other threads. I find it pointless to put Oghur Turkic into a completely different place, like it was some seperate ethnicity. I see no reason or base to assume there was any big difference between Turkic dialects of the period. There wasn't even a big geoghpraphical gap.
    Last edited by Tureuki; September 17, 2016 at 06:04 PM.

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    From Wikipedia:

    Lajos Ligeti was the first to suggest that the Xiongnu spoke a Yeniseian language. In the early 1960s Edwin Pulleyblank was the first to expand upon this idea with credible evidence. In 2000, Alexander Vovin reanalyzed Pulleyblank's argument and found further support for it by utilizing the most recent reconstruction of Old Chinese phonology by Starostin and Baxter and a single Chinese transcription of a sentence in the language of the Jie people, a member tribe of the Xiongnu Confederacy. Previous Turkic interpretations of the aforementioned sentence do not match the Chinese translation as precisely as using Yeniseian grammar.[85] Pulleybank and D. N. Keightley asserted that the Xiongnu titles "were originally Siberian words but were later borrowed by the Turkic and Mongolic peoples".[86] The Xiongnu language gave to the later Turkic and Mongolian empires a number of important culture words including Turkish tängri, Mongolian tenggeri, was originally the Xiongnu word for “heaven”, chengli (tháːŋ-wrə́j). Titles such as tarqan and tegin and kaghan were also inherited from the Xiongnu language.
    I'm afraid I don't personally know more than that. I have papers on the Xiongnu but have not yet really extensively gone into them.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    I don't see why turkic speakers have to be turks. Turkic is a very large family akin to germanic or romance, so it goes without saying hat not everyone will be a turk. If you went back in time and asked a Saxon from 800 AD if he is a german he would have definitely said no.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    Turk is not an ethnicity. Its a covering term, like Scythian of the past. Some people took it as their ethnic definition because they went above the tribal structure of the past. You have Nogays, Uzbeks, tribal federations named after an invidual. Tokuz Oghuz(Nine Tribes), referring to their federation's structure. But you can't use such a naming for Anatolian Turks for example because structure is changed. So they are named after their language and the covering term for their origin. Uyghurs too used be called Turks before they reintroduced the name Uyghur.

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    I might have found a paper on evidence for a Yeniseian language for the Xiongnu. I need to check it to make sure it isn't some biased nationalist thing first.

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    the other dialect in existence at the time was Mongolic dialects
    This makes no sense to me
    which are closely related to Turkish ones.
    Altaic is not a valid language family anymore.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    I just noticed on google translate that Magyar has same possession suffix as Turkish. My mother= Anam(Turkish) Anyam(Magyar) My father= Babam(Turkish= Apam(Magyar). Not gonna make a point, just something I noticed

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    It's only logical that the Magyars have some Turkish influence.

    At Hobbes:

    I've heard that argument before, but I'd like to see some actual supporting evidence. I know the Korean and Japanese part has been disproven.

    the other dialect in existence at the time was Mongolic dialects
    Proto-Mongol or Mongolic-speaking peoples first emerged with the Xianbei, the famous enemies of the Xiongnu. The remnants of the Xianbei would become the Sabirs of Priscus, who spoke an Oghur dialect. Empires in the region of Mongolia had populations that primarily spoke Mongolic and there was also Yeniseian and Tungusic dialects in the region as well. However in terms of the Altaic language family which incorporates Turkic and Mongolic, the two groups of dialects, Oghuz was only just beginning to separate at the time of the Huns and the Ashina and Kok who would become the Kok-Ashina or Kok-Turks would not achieve their ethnogenesis until 150 years after the Huns had primairly migrated out of Central Asia.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    Do we even have evidence that ethnicity mattered to them? Is there a particular hunnicness we can track down? The Mongols after all were a tiny tribe but in a short time they became huge integrating various tribes including some of turkish or manchurian origin. Is it just a name or do we have an culture that differs from other tribes? Since naming germanics hunnic princes was no problem i don't think their ethnic concept was very fundamental in their self-understanding at all. Definitions to work with are important for any discussion or research. I for once could imagine very well that the people who might have started in the Altai aren't even much related by blood with the people we see finally on the hungarian plain. They might very well be just people who have taken over the culture, language etc. from people they met on the central plain.

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    Default Re: The Origin of the Huns

    The Huns themselves were comprised of Aristocratic families, of course. Peasants rarely migrated, but the arrival of large numbers of Oghur Turkish peoples on the Ukranian steppes says otherwise in the case of the Huns.

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