AI Issues: Fleet sally out to break blockade

[Matmannen]

I've had a few sieges, like a recent one at carthage, where I had cornered a medium sized army and a small fleet in Carthage. I tried sieged them with one army (20 units) and one fleet (12 ships); I preperad myself for a long siege, expecting a nice pay off through an epic battle in the end (Large Garrison+The Army+The Fleet). After two turns the fleet sallied out against my fleet bringing with it the medium army. The whole shibang was sunk in a few minutes, lost one small Bireme.

I know the battle AI can't be modded, but the campaign map AI can. Can it be modded so that the AI is less gutsy when using Transports?

[Dresden]

This is a byproduct of using making transports so weak. Maybe we can somehow reflect that better in the autoresolve so the AI doesnt try this as much. It seems they are sort of hardcoded to see stacks of units as the same as navies.

[Matmannen]

This is a byproduct of using making transports so weak. Maybe we can somehow reflect that better in the autoresolve so the AI doesnt try this as much. It seems they are sort of hardcoded to see stacks of units as the same as navies.

You would think CA would compliment the weaker transports with a less gutsy AI, but that's CA for you. I don't know if the autoresolve values will have a large impact. If you put a 12 ship navy against a 20 ship transport fleet; the odds are on the real navy...

[Dresden]

In vanilla, transports used to be very good at destroying everything. They nerfed them (if I remember) so that they aren't quite that way anymore, but they never seemed to inform the AI about that ..

[Matmannen]

In vanilla, transports used to be very good at destroying everything. They nerfed them (if I remember) so that they aren't quite that way anymore, but they never seemed to inform the AI about that ..

The powerfull Carthaginian navy could be suck by a 20 stack transport fleet of plebs...

Hannibals cryptonite? Plebs!

[Ygraine]

There's a % value for the chances of the AI sallying out, but I'm not sure how it interacts when it happens after a few turns of sieging.

I turned down the AI's chances of sallying in my game because I was tired of weak militias going out to meet my cavalry-heavy forces in open plains when they have a bigger chance standing and defending in their streets. You could fidget around with this value to see how it affects naval garrisons and ships currently docked in a city.

[Dresden]

The problem is, its not just sallying out. Although that could help with it. There are 2 places this is found - campaign_variables and cai task managers.

The AI will also attack a fleet with an army even if its not sieging.

[bozu]

Dresden, I've noticed that GAR_units has movement (action points). Perhaps editing the action points to zero would prevent then from sallying out?
Also, each GAR_unit have a ship transports designated. I don't know what could happen if leaving that column empty. What do you think?

[Dresden]

No, garrison units don't have an active army in that way.

[bozu]

I can confirm that the AI also reinforces an attack with the garrison if you're just near the port raiding.
Following the current line of thinking, the hipotesis is that AI is not deciding their attacks due to the balance of power of autoresolve, but perhaps based in something else, like numbers..
In my campagin I've changed the analisys of chances to win x loss to a higher threshold (which reduces the AI armies attacking stronger enemies) I put it to 50% as a minimum to see if something changes with the blockades x garrisons. Also, the bar that shows the balance of power during battles is a lot (I mean A LOT) different than the one showing in autoresolve. it may show a huge advantage in one and the opposite during the real time battle. I don't know if this has anything to do with the issue, but still it's kind of strange. Perhaps the engine is using one of the calcs and not the other?

[MrMerisi]

This is starting to become a gamebreaker. In my current campaign as Rome I am about to march on a well-defended Syracuse and their 15-unit army jumps into transport ships to go attack a Carthaginian fleet that happens to be sailing past. The result? The entire Syracuse army is gone (barely a scratch on the Carthaginian fleet) and the challenge of taking the city is gone with it.

Maybe this is already addressed ad infinitum in a thread I cannot find, but if someone could make it their new year's resolution to help the AI not suicide elite phalanx and elephants (Pyrrhus tried to break my blockade of Taras using his elephants in boats) into fleets that would be awesome! As it is, I'm running out of imagination, like Carthage actually intercepted a Syracuse invasion army heading for Cosentia...

Oh, also the constant refusal of trade? That would be so nice! )

Now let me head on over to Patreon... )

Happy New Year all!

[Dresden]

I agree its still a problem. I will see if I can come up with a creative solution. The issue is that we want navies to be worthwhile and transports to be vulnerable but the AI doesnt seem to get the message

[thesmoosh]

I agree its still a problem. I will see if I can come up with a creative solution. The issue is that we want navies to be worthwhile and transports to be vulnerable but the AI doesnt seem to get the message

The odd thing is the autoresolve power bar for these encounters is pretty accurate but somehow the ai completely ignores it.

[MrMerisi]

The odd thing is the autoresolve power bar for these encounters is pretty accurate but somehow the ai completely ignores it.

Ha that's a good point! Also I noticed that the Autoresolve bar is different based on whether the AI is trying to break a blockade vs attack a fleet within reinforcement range of the port. Same for you?

@Dresden I don't know how the game engine works and what is actually moddable. If the AI is going to ignore the predicted outcome of a battle then perhaps the near term solution is to bump the stats of transports back up a touch. I just may have to accept that it's a game limitation and not resolve to the fleet strategy (exploit) to prevent Epirus from reinforcing Taras, however the AI seems to really have problems with the reduced transport stats. In Illyria, I am seeing entire stacks of AI troops being wiped out by 3-ship AI fleets and then the winner marches up the coast and takes a settlement unopposed.

It's a poor design choice that CA decided to do this (fyi Hearts of Iron IV is plagued by naval issues) and without knowing the mechanics, I can't suggest a way to mod around it. You guys have done an amazing job. I'm really blown away by how good this is.

[Dresden]

One idea is to remove/reduce the sea sickness effect and see how that does. Right now we have a negative to land units on the sea so they are very vulnerable. I think what is happening is that these effects are calculated into the autoresolve bar but the AI doesn't see them before attack for some reason. So, they don't see the new calculations caused by these effects until they have already engaged.

The problem is that the sea sickness effects are one of our primary ways of reducing transport effectiveness and actually making navies (and naval factions) have some unique and useful qualities.

[MrMerisi]

One idea is to remove/reduce the sea sickness effect and see how that does. Right now we have a negative to land units on the sea so they are very vulnerable. I think what is happening is that these effects are calculated into the autoresolve bar but the AI doesn't see them before attack for some reason. So, they don't see the new calculations caused by these effects until they have already engaged.

The problem is that the sea sickness effects are one of our primary ways of reducing transport effectiveness and actually making navies (and naval factions) have some unique and useful qualities.

Yeah this sounds like a real conundrum @Dresden. While the human player can avoid exploiting this, the AI vs AI is in all kinds of trouble. What makes it worse is the little "the year in history" thing that pops up and reminds you how pivotal Rome's naval victories over Carthage were

It would be great if all modders could put their heads together to solve this. Suggestions?

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Yeah this sounds like a real conundrum @Dresden. While the human player can avoid exploiting this, the AI vs AI is in all kinds of trouble. What makes it worse is the little "the year in history" thing that pops up and reminds you how pivotal Rome's naval victories over Carthage were

Τhe thing is we don't want to make it harder for the AI and most of the time AI is already in trouble.

[mmm1234mm]

This has become part of my strategy taking coastal cities. Come with a fleet of 6-8 ships, raid, wait for the army and garrison come to you, ram them all down. Then take an empty city.
The thing is even the auto resolve bar is hugely in my favour and the AI still goes and attacks triremes on their transport ships. The only way how AI can win in this if my ships get boarded, then they will outnumber me.
So maybe a fix to that could be in a form where it takes 2 hits rather than 1 to sink a transport ship, then AI will have high chances boarding ships.

[MrMerisi]

This has become part of my strategy taking coastal cities. Come with a fleet of 6-8 ships, raid, wait for the army and garrison come to you, ram them all down. Then take an empty city.
The thing is even the auto resolve bar is hugely in my favour and the AI still goes and attacks triremes on their transport ships. The only way how AI can win in this if my ships get boarded, then they will outnumber me.
So maybe a fix to that could be in a form where it takes 2 hits rather than 1 to sink a transport ship, then AI will have high chances boarding ships.

Yes that works as a strategy but it feels kinda empty 100 turns in?

@Dresden what would happen if transports didn't sink on the first hit from a larger ship? I notice Biremes don't sink transports on 1 hit and of course it's much harder to fight the battles vs autoresolve. I restarted my campaign as it felt like a serious cheat vs the AI...

[thesmoosh]

Yes that works as a strategy but it feels kinda empty 100 turns in?

@Dresden what would happen if transports didn't sink on the first hit from a larger ship? I notice Biremes don't sink transports on 1 hit and of course it's much harder to fight the battles vs autoresolve. I restarted my campaign as it felt like a serious cheat vs the AI...

I don't think autoresolve works the way actual combat does.