Horse archers--a how to guide

[Genghis Skahn]

PART 1:

It's been recently rumored among these forums that HAs are useless in EBII style battles. This guide is intended to challenge that perception, as personally, I've found that perception to be completely false. I have devastated armies with hordes of HAs, and so can you!

First a few comments:

From our head unit statter

If you think horse archers were as deadly as they were statted in EB I, ask yourself why the Mongols--fine horse archers--felt the need to organize their squads on a 4-6 ratio: 6 horse archers, 4 heavy cavalry lancers. Let that sink in: 4 lancers, 6 horse archers. That's a lot of lancers.

They also had two bows per man: one you use on foot, one on horseback. You don't issue bows like that unless you know horse archery can't cover every situation.

And all this was for a medieval army--with far better technology than in EB II's time-period (e.g. the Mongols had better bows, stirrups, a reasonably modern saddle, gunpowder, etc). Imagine what it was like for their less advanced cousins from 1500 years before.

So if you're expecting you're going to win a battle entirely with horse-archers, well, that isn't going to happen--not easily.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue is settled, the results are reasonably accurate, and for the nth time I didn't design the stat system to win merely by out-killing people: you win by destroying the enemy's will to fight. So tactics aren't an option--especially for horse archers

From myself:

HAs are useful in virtually every battle imo. They are the top tier of light missile cavalry. They have great stamina(steppe ones, at least), longer range missiles than javelineers(making them much more useful as skirmishers btw), good speed and some even have good charges. They are perfect for breaking up formations, chasing down routing units, to reach and secure high ground before enemy forces, as well as being good screens from enemy skirmishers(especially enemy HAs). They can also be good flankers in a pinch. They are the micro-heavy user's dream, though not OP as they were in EB1(god they were too good!).

If I'm to give any advice on them, beware of using skirmish mode with them. It's always more efficient to micro them yourself, but skirmish mode can still be useful in a pinch. Typically, it just breaks up their formation and volley imo, though. Using them in mobile "block" formations is far more efficient. While the enemy HAs are dicking around skirmishing on worse or lower ground, feel free to maintain a superior position and turn skirmish mode off, then watch the enemy slowly wither.

Campaign battle results using HAs as the Sauromatae in no particular order: https://postimg.org/gallery/siqjjxtu/ note the HA casualties shown in the casualty reports within this gallery, especially

Common trends across all these battle results is that 1) HAs when properly used get a decent amount of missile kills, giving them a medium-tier amount of kills overall per battle(higher than infantry typically, ranging from about par with properly used infantry jav skirmishers to much higher than that, but less than ranged units like slingers and bow users) 2) they consistently have good amounts of captured troops, because they are a swift and enduring light cavalry unit. This makes them perfect for chasing routers, providing high capture numbers when used properly and aggressively. These high capture numbers can often offset the advantage in unit casualties that foot archers/slingers often provide.

As a side note, 3 large battles among these were fought against bosporan forces rich in infantry, and at least once supported by decent amounts of cavalry. Horse archers proved valuable in each of these battles, gaining lots of casualties and captures. I can't see how they would be considered out of place at all. I've beaten both settled and nomadic armies with horse archers present in large numbers.

My experience using HAs in my latest Sauromatian campaigns seem to suggest that they are indeed a useful and versatile unit, especially since they make up such a large part of my forces.

I ask you this: Why the hell would you use a light low tier skirmisher cavalry when you could use a horse archer? The truth is, they are better than virtually any other light low tier cavalry type in the game.

The speed, stamina and missile range of HAs lets one dictate how/when a battle is fought on open ground--though obviously, like any cav unit, they are far less effective in rough/mountainous terrain. Where they are most common, however, there are but few hilly or rough areas, and assuming there are, it is HAs who can usually reach high ground faster and make better use of high ground better than any other unit.

Don't be mistaken, however, thinking they can do everything alone. Without appropriate support from other unit types, HAs aren't the battle crushing force they were in EB1--which is how it should be.

1) Beware skirmish mode. It's good against slow moving units, but for fast ones and skirmishers, especially, it just causes a bunch of useless back-forth movements which usually result in you losing a superior position. If you have 5 HAs sitting on a hilltop, with 5 enemy HAs/skirmishers below you, DO NOT SKIRMISH. You have the superior position, don't be afraid to use these guys statically if it's the right choice. Skirmish mode is only useful for units that can't catch you, really. EDIT: I can't stress this point enough; I find skirmish mode very unreliable at best.

2) Patience. Let the casualties slowly rack up, and the enemy morale wither as you dance around the enemy, nearly untouched. These units aren't meant for shock and awe--that's what lancers/heavy cav is for. Instead, they are perfect for setting up shock and awe moments.

3) The speed, stamina and missile range of HAs lets one dictate how/when a battle is fought on open ground. A common first move in battle as a nomadic commander is to send HAs flying forward, being the first units to secure high ground/good ground, preventing enemy skirmishers from doing the same. The fact that these guys are so fast, enduring and effective lets you control how the enemy reacts to you, essentially. It's VERY easy to break up enemy formations with these guys, and VERY easy to provoke the AI into attacking you and making the first mistake. These guys are arguably the most micro-heavy units in game.

More points to come soon...

[Genghis Skahn]

4) They are the micro-heavy user's dream. Truly, these guys are still like HAs in EB1 in the sense that these guys and other nomadic cavalry have the grace of a flock of swans. People not looking to micro a ton should be discouraged from using them, as they are at their best when you are actively using/keeping an eye on them. For nomadic armies, they are an unquestionable star on the field and play an integral part to gaining victory. Running these guys back and forth, confusing and showering the enemy is nearly artistic when done correctly. This is mainly due to their speed, stamina and versatility as a unit type(pretty much the only thing they can't do as a cav unit is line-breaking charges). Misusing them as a nomadic commander is a surefire path to failure and disgrace, as they can play an important role in virtually every field battle. Obviously, for sieges, they are not nearly as useful--though for sally-outs, they are also perfect.

5) Breaking up enemy formations. I can't stress this point enough, especially against armies with lots of heavy infantry or armor. Basically nobody can catch these guys but the fastest cav or fellow HAs--but as a nomad, you usually have lots of cav, giving you the advantage there. It takes like 2-3x longer to do custom battle tests with HAs vs HAs than normal units even--why you ask? Because it's so ing hard to catch them! Plus, the AI is actually pretty good with them... Their speed, stamina and missiles let you pepper, distract and tire out the enemy unchecked without sufficient cavalry support. This is exactly the type of strat I employed in my battle results vs. the KB in the image gallery above (sauroresults 1-4 and 7-8). I broke up their formation with my HA, then peppered and tired out the units chasing me. This made the AI divide and weaken it's attacking force.

6) Why the hell would you use a light low tier skirmisher cavalry when you could use a horse archer? The truth is, they are better than virtually any other light low tier cavalry type in the game. Seriously, why even bother with a low-tier javelineer when you could have a HA? They can do everything and more than most crappy jav. cav. Unless they're better at melee or charging(most light jav cav aren't), then HAs are the better choice in the long run...Except against elephants of course, who are allergic to javelins.

7) They can also be good flankers in a pinch. Pretty self-explanatory. They can be useful for flank charges if the enemy troops are light enough and/or if the general is bad enough/dead. At least one of my victories against the KB involved a final rear charge from light HAs against a weakened enemy line. After the rout, who better than to chase them than HAs? No one, that's who.

8) They definitely get missile kills when used properly. The results in the gallery speak for themselves, most of the HA casualties shown there are caused by their bows...Prisoners captured for them are usually charge-related.

[Genghis Skahn]

9) Use them to counter enemy horse archers. Another very important point, very few units are better at keeping enemy HAs in check besides your own HAs. They are perfect for screening, attacking or chasing down enemy HAs.

10) Keep them out of prolonged melee, as a general rule of thumb. This one is fairly obvious, of course. HAs are lightning fast, and hence squishy, cavalry units and so should really be kept out of most melee situations--but this is also true for many cavalry units. Charging a flank and pulling out quickly is fine, but prolonged melee is where these guys will get butchered.

11) They can however, be used to great effect when charging and meleeing weak, unsupported skirmishers. Keyword here is unsupported. If the enemy has their skirmishers all alone behind their lines, or too far in front, HAs can charge and recharge these pathetically weak and light skirmishers units until a good ol' fashioned rout occurs. Some HAs may be better at this than others (eg. Getai HAs have the sica and Skythian HAs have decent armor), so feel free to vary your strategies in this regard based on what HAs you have access to.

12) Use them to chase down routing units. Fairly self explanatory(and mentioned above), these guys typically have very high speed and stamina, making them ideal for chasing down routing units. When a rout begins, feel free to let these guys loose upon the enemy, if you feel it's safe to do so. I advise turning off fire at will at this point, however, as valuable ammo will be wasted on routing units(and can possibly cause FF).

13) Group them together(default hotkey is G on my setup). They work the best when arrayed in groups of at least 2-3 units(in some of my screenshots above, you see me grouping 5 together, even). This is actually a general rule of thumb for most units in game, tbh, so it also applies here. Effective grouping and cohesive action by the player affords the player a massive advantage over the AI/enemy forces. I would avoid making HA groups larger than 5-6 units, as they become more and more unwieldy to use as the groups get bigger in size.

Near the end of this guide, I'll probably provide example field strats and screens.

[Nightsh4de]

Great tips! I´m playing Getai right now and could not really see where to put the HA in my armies.

While reading your tips though, it occurred to me that I tend to use foot archers as an almost exclusively anti skirmisher unit (thats why light skirmishers take on heavier armor and become peltasts, btw).

Like everyone else. I also use light cavalry to chase down routers. This is a very standard way of thinking I´m guessing, and like most people, I´d probably put archers in with HA or more commonly, LC.

Call me dumb but it never ocurred to me that a horse archer, because it combines both archer and LC abilities, can be selected as a two in one solution, instead of taking both those units and manageing them separately, take a single HA, keep it behind the advancing HI to destroy skirmishers in the way and once battle is joined, switch tactics and become LC, outflanking the enemy line and destroying weak archer units in the back and chasing down the enemy once they break!

Its likely cheaper too! More importantly, this frees up a slot in your stack for more infantry or heavy cav, helping to deal with attrition of front line units from multiple battles.

I´m thinking this is more useful in offensive armies than in defensive where light foot archers will generally be able to catch routing heavy infantry (they lead the assault on walls, and so are a primary target while cleaning up) and are really the best defence against horse archers (they can´t out run arrows, you´re usually at a numbers advantage, 160 vs 100 and are sitting on a preselected hill, so if you get charged you should be able to resist until reinforcements come), so in this case taking 2 archer units instead of 1 LC 1 ARC, is preferable and much cheaper.

Thanks for helping out the thought process with your post, I´ll be trying these ideas out!

[LusitanianWolf]

I've never been much of a fan of Horse archer based armies but this thread inspired me to take on an extremely enjoyable Pahlavah campain with some epic battles so far (90 turns on). When well played HA based armies are extremely effective and fun! Thank you!

[Genghis Skahn]

No problem! Sorry for not finishing this sooner...I've been collecting screenshots and further HA data .

I've also got a new favorite HA unit: the nabatu horse archers. Their lance charges put most other light cavalry to shame, when you also consider that they are horse archers as well . They are truly superb!

[Genghis Skahn]

https://postimg.org/gallery/2tnfpks8m/47bf3a91/

Some recently gathered screenshots of horse archers being used to great effect. Note the high casualties and capture rates, but mostly note the positioning I'm using in the screenshots. You can see I'm very mobile with them, and apply them on the flanks and rear of the enemy. These screenshots show me fighting smaller, infantry based armies--but the strategy in terms of positioning is basically the same. They are still used very offensively, and I often use them to goad or bait the enemy to attack, and then harass them before leading them to my line. More screenshots in the future.







14) River battles aren't great for nomadic armies, those battlemaps are better for infantry. A long time ago, in an early EBII saka campaign, I fought the Baktrians near chach with the scraps of my starting army. I did what was traditional for TW players when greatly outnumbered: I occupied a river crossing. This ended up turning into a disastrous defeat, and I realized too late my error...That with a very mobile army including many HAs, I chose to fight a less mobile-army with 1/2 the space I normally had. I quickly retried a battle in open ground, where nomadic tactics excel, by letting the Baktrians cross the river Jaxartes this time. Success! Though bloody, my victory was crushing enough to force a non-force diplomacy ceasefire. HAs can still be good in river battles in general missile support and router chasing roles, but they are best for open ground.

15) The Lancer and horse archer have both an intimate and antagonistic relationship. Lighter and heavier lancers were an important aspect of several nomadic culture's forms of warfare. Lancers are good for anti-horse archer activities, IF caught in open melee, and employing many fast lancers is certainly a reasonable anti HA tactic. However, lancers also work excellent with HAs. Indeed, after all of my HAs ammo is spent, this is when I bring out my lancers to chase down enemy HAs. In terms of light lancers, having a HA screen and help pin down enemy HAs is very useful as well--as light lancers are very susceptible to missile fire...So there is a simple balance here: Lancers typically win a melee/charge, but if horse archers prevent this charge by evasion, the lancer unit becomes weaker and weaker via missile casualties, or gets tired from chasing fast, enduring HAs; after that happens, they might not stand up in melee anymore. These units are much like brethren, use them together appropriately and they won't let you down.

16) Nomadic noble HAs are the star of nomad armies. These guys are simply amazing, and are so very versatile. Few cavalry units will make them tremble, and using them offensively is definitely recommended(though they can also be used defensively to great effect). A few of these units in an army never disappoints--not the type of unit you leave sitting around waiting to do something. Group them up and that's a solid block on the battlefield that most cavalry won't be able to touch.

17) Nomadic armies aren't great at sieges. Obvious. Infantry heavy factions excel at close combat and sieges, but HAs? Not really. If you've got a lot of HAs in a besieged city, then sally-out; unless they've got more cavalry than you of course.

A little anecdote:

Some Pontic fellows with a heavy infantry based army decided to besiege me at Khersonesos via naval invasion one Sauromatae campaign, whilst a full army was still inside. On turn 1, I repaid them in kind with a sally-out, as I had a predominately nomadic army which was largely unsuited to sieges(though I did have some local infantry). First thing I did was get my horse archers out to chase the reforming besiegers and shoot them with arrows--succeeded in doing that and goading the enemy to attack me. Was lucky that the battlemap had a nice slope for my HAs to sit atop and fire from. I brutally crushed them as they advanced back up the slope with combined arrow fire from foot and horse, and with a little help from a decent sized slavic/bastarnae/maiotian battleline...Can you guess who did most of the router chasing afterward?

[dlcatalin]

Great guide. I'm playing as the Getae, turn 273, my goal from the start was to bring all my tribes under 1 banner, 1 king, 1 empire. To unite the Getae, all Thracians, Scythians, Massagetae, Saka, Dahae etc. It was not fun at all playing 273 turns fighting against CA every single battle. Sadly i was playing an old version 2.2b and just found out now that there is patch for 2.2n (yep i'm blind). Now i have to go trough it all over again ... new campaign, day one.

The only way to counter CA is with other fast cav, just rush them with 2 fast cav from oposite directions so they can't run away and melee them to death. When i make CA dependent armies i go for 9 CA, 1 General, 2 HC, 8 infantry.

With my 8 infantry i make a small tight formation, i use the CA to weaken and lure the enemy to my infantry, they atack the infantry then with my CA that has no more arrows and HC and General i surround and hit them from the back = victory.