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Thread: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

  1. #1

    Default Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Ok, I know that this mod is NOT supposed to be 100% historical, but instead it`s supposed to only have an "eye towards historical accuracy".

    However, these bother me:

    1) Pikemen units for Carthage.
    I am under the impression that it is pretty much established that Carthage using true pikemen is just a mistranslation of Polybius:
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139923

    This is taken from another forum, so isn`t a scientific source, but the guy explaining it seems to know what he is talking about+you can find the same explanation elsewhere if you keep Google-ing.

    What I want to know here is what is the opinion of the mod makers, especially the ones who are doing the historical research? Are these "what if" units, or truly historical units?

    I would say no, and so far, I refused to use them in my Carthage playthrough. But if someone brings out evidence that this wasn`t just a mistranslation, I`ll be happy to start using them.

    2) What do the following units represent: H'anatim Kan'anim (Carthaginian Hoplites), Parasim Kan'anim (Carthaginian Cavalry), Dorkim Kan'anim (Carthaginian Infantry)?

    Are they supposed to represent the Liby-Phoenicians? If so, why are they called "Carthaginian"? Why not H'anatim Lybi-Fynikim (Liby-Phoenician Hoplites) etc.?

    From what I managed to find out, Carthage did NOT have any recorded units that was made primarily/exclusively of the mens of the city of Carthage itself (Sacred Band aside, that stopped existing way before the timeframe). Liby-Phoenicians might have had some form of Carthaginian citizenship, but they weren`t "full" citizens, from what I gather.

    As for the Liby-Phoenicians, again, from what I read, there is no evidence they were used as infantry, only as cavalry. So, again, are these units "what if" units, or is there any evidence they really existed (that is given they are in fact Liby-Phoenicians, if they are meant to represent the people from the city of Carthage, I`m fairly sure they are 100% "what if").

    P.S. I know some of this has been discussed in the past, but that was about 2 years ago, from what I saw. Perhaps something changed in the meantime...

    edit: Oh yes, 1 last question. This one is pertaining PoR version. Lybian hoplites are introduced as citizen class. While they are, obviously meant to represent the Lybians in service of Carthage (as in, native, Berber, population of north African coast, hailing from OUTSIDE the city of Carthage (and probably outside of it`s colonies as well).
    I guess that is a gameplay decision, so that you can recruit them anywhere (as historically Carthage DID pull troops like these everywhere).
    If that is so, could there be a more elegant solution to this?
    Last edited by popovic; August 16, 2016 at 07:19 AM.

  2. #2
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    I know nothing of Carthage and its history.
    But what I do know and dont this as me attacking you but it would be best if you could post references to these statements. It would make it easier for someone with knowledge to participate in the discussion


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  3. #3

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by FlashHeart07 View Post
    I know nothing of Carthage and its history.
    But what I do know and dont this as me attacking you but it would be best if you could post references to these statements. It would make it easier for someone with knowledge to participate in the discussion
    References, as in scientific sources (books and other work with a proper line of quotations to the primary source etc.)?

    If you are thinking of these, there is NO WAY I`ll be putting in the work to do all that.

    I have put one quote up there, which as I said, isn`t scientific, but if one wants, he can easily do some reasearch which will prove my point.

    And just like you don`t know anything about the history of Carthage (but are one of the designers of the mod), I am no expert on history, which has loads of books relevant on the matter lying around me.

    However, as I said, one can easily do some research (yes, over the Internet, with all the faults that that brings), and make his own conclusions.

    So, what I am interested in is, what do the mod crew members that DO know stuff about history of Carthage think about all this?

    And can they post some link/evidences that would back up the existence of these units?

    P.S. Of course,FlashHeart dont this as me attacking you

  4. #4

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Just to make it clear, I don`t want to start an argument here. I`m just interested are these "what if"/fantasy units, or is there any evidence for them that I missed?

    Also, I`m not asking anything about these units in the mod to change. I personaly probably won`t use them if they are ahistorical. And I might even make a submod that removes them for the player, some day.

    However, if they are historical, well, that would make Carthage a lot more fun to play.

    Hence the thread.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    I have heard that many of Hannibal's soldiers after battles like Trebia and Lake Trasimane have used roman's quipment: helmets, armour, shields etc, because they were better than their own. How you can implement to the game? I think that some units are an compromise between historical identity and the game limitation like for example Dorkim Kan\'anim which looks very similar to roman principes.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    During the third punic war, carthaginian citizens fought to defend the city of carthage from rome.

    They were equiped with arms and armor by the city itself.


    Unless you're trying to tell me that when their city was under siege, all the citizens just sat around and didn't fight.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    During the third punic war, carthaginian citizens fought to defend the city of carthage from rome.

    They were equiped with arms and armor by the city itself.
    Any source on that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    Unless you're trying to tell me that when their city was under siege, all the citizens just sat around and didn't fight.
    In times of war, civilians often do NOT fight, even if their town/village/city/country is in immediate danger. Cause you know, fighting is actually dangerous (and was especially so in antiquity) and surviving is still more likely if you try to run/hide, instead of sallying against the enemy.
    It is like that today, I am sure it was like that in antiquity as well.

    Take note, I did some digging on these units, however it was only about them,. History of Carthage, and military history of Carthage is much more than that, and unfortunately most of the stuff I could find focuses on the Second Punic War, and the surrounding events. This means that there might be stuff that I didn`t find, but maybe someone with real expertise on the matter can shed some light...

    In any case, I found this particular article the most complete:

    http://historum.com/ancient-history/22117-army-carthage-during-hannibal-s-time.html


    This is about Punic armies during the Second Punic War. Although it covers a limited scope in time, I do find it very much relevant to the mod, as the mod is set in roughly the same timeframe as well.

    So read through it, and post opinions.

    P.S. The guy mentioned his sources, but he doesn`t have a full line of quotations. That being said, what he wrote is pretty much the same as I read elsewhere.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    As much as I want to make.a scathing remark on the complete obviousness of what happens when a city defends itself during a siege to your request for a source on that first statement, I won't.

    The source is roman records and any historian who has ever written about the third punic war. Ever.

    The romans said there were about 90,000 soldiers fighting and 150,000 civilians. The civilians would still have been working in non combat roles before the walls were breached, as I would say it is nigh impossible all 150k civilians cowered for two straight years.

    That leaves the 90,000 combatants.

    By the time of the third punic war, carthage was little more than the city of carthage and the immediate surrounding territory.
    So that 90,000 strong force of soldiers from the city of carthage itself are very likely to have been whatever able bodied citizens that carthage could muster for defence.

    The city was blockaded and under siege, meaning any type of recruitment of non carthaginians would be likely.

    I'm not saying or impying carthaginian citizens fighting in the army was normal, but that during extreme circumstances (such as when the existence of your entire country and people is on the line), carthaginians obviously fought and would have been equipped in whatever their style of combat required.
    Last edited by Ivan_Moscavich; August 16, 2016 at 02:10 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    The source is roman records and any historian who has ever written about the third punic war.

    By the time of the third punic war, carthage was little more than the city of carthage and the immediate surrounding territory.
    So that 90,000 strong force of soldiers from the city of carthage itself are very likely to have been whatever able bodied citizens that carthage could muster for defence.
    That`s all fine and dandy, however, every source I came across mentions that Carthage stopped using it`s own citizens as regular army troops and started relying on mercenaries, way before the timeline the mod covers.

    I`ll admit it was a very long time ago I read about the Third Punic War. I`ll have to look into that again.

    However, a source (of any kind) that mentions that there were actual military units, made up of Carthaginian citizens and residents, and fighting in the hoplite manner (H'anatim Kan'anim) or any other manner for that matter, would be appreciated (besides the Sacred Band, naval units and perhaps some cavalry).

    Also, what you explained above pretty much says that those fighting men were levies that were recruited in the most dire of situations. The troops I have mentioned above are fairly good troops, that are available to you BEFORE any reforms.
    I highly doubt these troops were meant to represent such levies. And if they are, I personally think they are misrepresenting them (and the Carthaginian way of warfare in general).

  10. #10

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Militia troops would be fighting with spears and swords, in the manner of hoplites and swordsmen.

    unless you are asking about specific units in dei and not just carthaginian citizen soldiers in general.


    Edit: the two main sources for information would be appian of alexandrias writings on the punic wars, and polybius writing about the fall of carthage, and more generally in his histories that cover the punic wars.


    Those make specific mention of carthginian soldiers manning the walls, and fighting house to house in the streets of carthage.
    Last edited by Ivan_Moscavich; August 16, 2016 at 02:24 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Also, just to be clear what we are talking about here, the Carthage units in this mod were done at the very beginning (or even before the beginning if I remember) of the mod by Meneros. So, there isn't even anyone here who created them to explain them

    That being said, of course its always good to go back and look at ways to improve rosters. I think some of these units are more there to add gameplay elements for Carthage players. I mean, we could make them rely completely on mercenary units I suppose. But, have some core units is somewhat of a necessity.

    I think the infantry units are supposed to represent a mixture of the local people who lived there and the surrounding areas.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    Militia troops would be fighting with spears and swords, in the manner of hoplites and swordsmen.

    unless you are asking about specific units in dei and not just carthaginian citizen soldiers in general.


    Edit: the two main sources for information would be appian of alexandrias writings on the punic wars, and polybius writing about the fall of carthage, and more generally in his histories that cover the punic wars.


    Those make specific mention of carthginian soldiers manning the walls, and fighting house to house in the streets of carthage.
    Yes, I am asking about the units in the mod.

    Thanks for the answer, I am trying to find more info about all that.

    In any case, I feel that these units in the mod aren`t meant to represent such fighters. Actually, I am fairly sure that they are meant to represent Liby-Phoenicians (there are also Liby-Phoenicain mercenary hoplite in the mod, whose unit card look exactly like those Carthaginian Hoplites). Am I wrong?

    P.S. I find it annoying that 90% of all resources on this matter that can be found on the Internet (yes, I know Internet is a terrible source if you are looking for some serious stuff) is about Hannibal. Very little about the 3rd Punic War.
    Last edited by popovic; August 16, 2016 at 02:33 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    That's odd. I typically see carthaginian armies with liby_phonecian hoplites when I fight them. They are not mercenary troops either.

    We could go back and just rename any units that say carthaginian x to liby_phoneician x.

    A lot of the original rosters seem to be revised vanilla rosters. So up until recently there were some odd non-historical units in many rosters.

    We have done some trimming (especially to the greeks) in past releases, and the celts are being trimmed this release.

    We could take a look at the carthaginians as well.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    I think the infantry units are supposed to represent a mixture of the local people who lived there and the surrounding areas.
    Yes, I think so as well. As I said above, the H'anatim Kan'anim look EXACTLY like Mercenary Liby-Phoenician hoplites. I`m fairly sure that they are just misnamed, or named as they were with the idea that the Liby-Phoenicians were actual citizens of Carthage (and from what I read, they were, at least to some extent).

    I know Meneros did those units (I read through the Carthage preview that is over 2 years old here ), and there were questions similar to mine raised there (about the pikemens). I was hoping that someone who knows more about both those units is still around.

    However, you could answer my last question: why were Lybian Hoplites put into Citizen group in the PoR version? Is it so that they can be recruited everywhere?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Is that an AOR unit? Probably just an oversight.

    Edit - nm I see them, thats a mistake.

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by popovic View Post
    That`s all fine and dandy, however, every source I came across mentions that Carthage stopped using it`s own citizens as regular army troops and started relying on mercenaries, way before the timeline the mod covers.

    I`ll admit it was a very long time ago I read about the Third Punic War. I`ll have to look into that again.

    However, a source (of any kind) that mentions that there were actual military units, made up of Carthaginian citizens and residents, and fighting in the hoplite manner (H'anatim Kan'anim) or any other manner for that matter, would be appreciated (besides the Sacred Band, naval units and perhaps some cavalry).

    Also, what you explained above pretty much says that those fighting men were levies that were recruited in the most dire of situations. The troops I have mentioned above are fairly good troops, that are available to you BEFORE any reforms.
    I highly doubt these troops were meant to represent such levies. And if they are, I personally think they are misrepresenting them (and the Carthaginian way of warfare in general).
    Carthaginian citizen's weren't just employed as soldiers in the third punic war, but also in the first. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthippus_of_Carthage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...rcenary_Forces
    Admittedly, only in a time of great need, but they were still used.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    And here is something from a different mod (AE):

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...aginian-Roster

    Take note of the nice picture right underneath the introduction text which explains the Carthaginian units through reforms.

    Take note of how many units Carthage has there, besides the mercenaries (whole 9 of them).
    Now compare that with how many "native" units Carthage has here.

    It would also be worth reading through the whole thread, as some questions similar to mine were raised, and the some of the guys there explain that stuff.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units


  19. #19
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    I think the carthagian units above are realistic.

    How should Carthage build up a elite force like the Sacred Band, if they were no normal carthagian hoplites, which were trained in phalanx warfare and from which they took the best for sacred band?

    After the first punic war the carthaginian mercenaries revolt in 238 BC and the Mercenary War began, because Carthago couldnīt pay their mercenaries, because they had to pay their war debts in Rome.

    They built up a new army and defeated the mercenary army.

    The new army must been have recruited from Carthage itself, because the Libyans revolted too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary_War
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Historical background and other things regarding Carthage units

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Iunius View Post
    How should Carthage build up a elite force like the Sacred Band, if they were no normal carthagian hoplites, which were trained in phalanx warfare and from which they took the best for sacred band?
    Sacred Band was a unit made up of Carthaginian nobles. They trained for war since an early age. They weren`t recruited from any other unit.

    Regarding Mercenary War, I found this (on that wonderfully reliable source, the Wikipedia): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bagradas_River_%28239_BC%29#Composition_of_Forces

    In any case, there might be something to all these citizen units. But I still find it kinda unrealistic that they can be made to form the backbone of all Carthaginian armies in the mod.

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