Proposed Fort Changes

[Mike92574]

sieges wouldnt take hours if people werent awful at building towers.

Ya it's very difficult to build a good tower. It's way too easy to make a gamey one.

[firebird1170]

Ya it's very difficult to build a good tower. It's way too easy to make a gamey one.

What is a "gamey" structure?

[Mike92574]

What is a "gamey" structure?

Tall sructure. No viable way up except an idl or water drop. There's numerous examples in this thread explaining that.

[firebird1170]

Gamey structures has NOT been a problem for the entirety of the server.

Maybe you're thinking of Map 1. Map2 had difficult structures, eg NK's. Don't know if structures in Map3,4,5,..were appreciably harder. Guess you think so. Definitely there has been more complaints though, about forts and gameplay, actually about everything. I wonder if part is people just got tired of the grind of the game, not so much that forts are worse.

Making sieges shorter is exactly what should happen.

Sieges yes, battles and skirmishes I'm not so sure.

One big problem is that factions intentionally declare war so they find themselves numerically inferior, giving them reason to hole up in forts that require extreme numerical advantage on the side of the attackers to win.

Will have to take your word for it - I haven't run into that. Its self-defeating. Lopsided numbers ultimately win eventually.

The communal spirit on "what is a fair fort" has sadly disappeared, now replaced by forts with the intention of being deterrents to PvP, not challenging PvP.

Maybe that communal spirit is a victim of the rise of treachery. For instance, a little faction minding their own business attacking or bothering no-one. A big faction comes secretly in numbers, DoWs outside their base, and does a surprise decapitation, steals all valuables, dumps chests, etc. I've been on the receiving end of this multiple times since Map2. I've come to accept it as part of the game. But darn right I want a fort which provides some deterrent to that. Having to roll out the red carpet to your bed, or not being allowed to respawn in a strongpoint, removes deterrence. That's what I don't like. I don't feel its my purpose in life to bend over for quick-pvpers to get their rocks off in a insta-romp through my base. Now, if the bed restriction happens, I'll have to adjust somehow to achieve the same deterrence. It might be labeled "gamey" though.

A fort should be hard to take. By ingenious traps and by defenders having higher ground and greater view of field. But what it has come to now is too much. A siege should not take several hours.

Personally I have never built anything which wasn't breached in under 20 minutes. Not sure how to do that actually. I have built things which some people caterwauled about, but in fact with a little thought they can always get in.

I do not think grinding in this game is a good use of my time. I do it for easy access fun. Now someone will say that you need to grind to get a good reward, well do that in real life mate. This is a game.

I think that if you don't want to grind for hours, you shouldn't have to. Just like mining, gaining XP, or anything else in this game. I just don't think its fair to expect everyone to have the same gameplay expectations, or structure building philosophy.

A solution is to not attack gamey forts. That however falls futile when your enemy holds up in said fort as soon as they are outnumbered, turning the so called war into a waiting fest.

That falls into the category of dick behavior. I think that should be handled in a different way than requiring open borders.. or weak defenses.

[firebird1170]

Tall sructure. No viable way up except an idl or water drop. There's numerous examples in this thread explaining that.

How tall is too tall? How many blocks?

[The Guy With No Imagination]

Oh my god man usually tall enough that being knocked from a single-block wide ladder thats totally exposed is enough to guarantee death.

[Mike92574]

Firebird I don't see how going into detail about abbews post is achieving anything. He gave a broad idea of what shouldn't be acceptable and what should. I for one found it easy to interpret and you don't have to divulge into personal experiences or random occurrences that achieve nothing. As for you getting attacked constantly, I think it's fair to say that Buddydog has brought that on himself a lot. As for getting looted, if you're annoyed that someone has taken your valuables then that's your own fault, I can't even remember the last time I was at war where some of my real valuables were taken. It's so easy to create multiple stashes of valuables so that losing one results in you not caring that much it's gone.

As for the whole grinding aspect that Abbews has gone on about, most of us are now at the stage where we're either trying to do well in university or are in a job, thus leaving minimal time to play minecraft. We'd much rather have a fun battle that lasts half an hour then stand around for 2-3 hours while nothing happens. We accept that you have to grind so much for mining (not really for xp) but that's been brought to a minimal already for the exact same reason. Some of us are builders who don't mind grinding for hours on end, others are pvpers who agree this is the best pvp experience you can get anywhere. There's two basic aspects to the community here and we've to cater to both.

[firebird1170]

Firebird I don't see how going into detail about abbews post is achieving anything. He gave a broad idea of what shouldn't be acceptable and what should. I for one found it easy to interpret and you don't have to divulge into personal experiences or random occurrences that achieve nothing.

I get that you don't like my posts. No worries.

As for you getting attacked constantly, I think it's fair to say that Buddydog has brought that on himself a lot.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. But I didn't bring that subject up so we can leave it there.

As for getting looted, if you're annoyed that someone has taken your valuables then that's your own fault, I can't even remember the last time I was at war where some of my real valuables were taken. It's so easy to create multiple stashes of valuables so that losing one results in you not caring that much it's gone.

You misunderstood - being attacked and looted doesn't annoy me. But I know you aren't keen on a discussion so we can leave that also.

As for the whole grinding aspect that Abbews has gone on about, most of us are now at the stage where we're either trying to do well in university or are in a job, thus leaving minimal time to play minecraft. We'd much rather have a fun battle that lasts half an hour then stand around for 2-3 hours while nothing happens. We accept that you have to grind so much for mining (not really for xp) but that's been brought to a minimal already for the exact same reason.

OK I understand. To summarize the mindset now - if the software programming makes you grind and spend time, its ok. But if a human's building choices inconveniences, how dare they.

Some of us are builders who don't mind grinding for hours on end, others are pvpers who agree this is the best pvp experience you can get anywhere. There's two basic aspects to the community here and we've to cater to both.

We are in full agreement. So then. In the future I should expect that if my base is hard to attack, those who want quick pvp will not moan and complain, but cheerfully go away? Assuming I've done nothing bad.

If I have done something wrong, let me know. We can either settle up peacefully, or we can meet at an easier spot convenient for you, and fight it out. Or if you just want a friendly sword-swing romp, and I feel like that too, we can meet somewhere convenient and hack away.

But if you come to my base on a surprise decapitation destroy mission, fine c'mon. Just expect to have to work more than 10 minutes for it.

[TheEliteDwarf]

RULE IMPLEMENTATION

Beds need to be moved out of fort/defensive chunks per the following rule:

No present or future fort may include any beds. Beds may not be placed in any chunk that the fort involves. Defenders may not respawn inside their fort. Any structure that is used for defence and built before the commencement of a siege battle, and is within a faction's own claimed land, cannot have any beds placed within the bounds of the chunks that the fort involves. It is however permissible to have any number of secret passageways, tunnels etc. from an off-chunk spawn area, into the fort. If the defenders opt to defend city walls instead of a central citadel, the city walls (and the chunks thus involved) will be counted as a fort. Beds may therefore not be placed in city walls or gates or the chunks involved by those structures. Moderation makes the judgement call on what constitutes a fort, if this is not abundantly clear.

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Additionally, moderation has decided (based on discussions held in this thread) to include a ruling on Instant-Death Ladders (IDL's):

No present or future fort may include Insta-Death-Ladders (IDL's). IDL's are to be classified by this description: Ladders with a possible fall height greater than 18 blocks are not permitted. The only exception to this rule allowed is if you can ONLY fall in water.

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Additionally, moderation has discussed clarifying the obsidian ruling and this is what we want to clarify:

Obsidian floors and ceilings can only be 1 solid layer and must have a minimum 2 blocks vertically of space between each layer if multiple layers are used.

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All factions will have until 09-17-2016 11:00 AM EST to update their bases to conform with the rules stated above.

Thank you all for your patience.

Regards,

TheEliteDwarf