Culture / Religion

[Magnar]

they dont have to be the same group, the different cultures with regards to conquest and diplomacy is different to the cultural division for edicts. Atm i am doing the conquest and diplomacy part.

The edicts division will also impact the available building chains and some other areas as well.


Phal, for edicts id suggest to get the generic culture variants done first with consideration to celts as a single culture and then we can look at breaking it down in to regional variations if such things are needed.

For the base ones, id just use the vanilla sub cultures to start with but split arabian and african

[VINC.XXIII]

If it also has an impact on edicts I think we should go with Celtic diversity, as we could highlight the different focuses of the sub-groups. So for Celts in Britain and Gaul I propose:

- Atlantic Gallo-Brittonic
- North Sea Gallo-Brittonic
- Central Brittonic
- Central Gallic
- Transalpine Gallic
VINC do they look good to you?

Beyond Britain and Gaul, we also have:
- Iberian Celts (this is confusing but Iberian Celts and Celtiberians are distinct cultures, though it may be best to leave this to our Iberia expert)
- Irish (under-researched but highly isolated in our timeframe)
- Celts of Northern Italy, the Danube and Anatolia, which I'd like to consult VINC on.

It sounds good for what concerns tying both sides of actual Manche through common sub groups, but not really for Cisalpine celts, galates, Tylis, these guys were just off-shoots of either Carnutes, Aedui, Volcae, Senones, Cenomani, Lingones and else, personnaly I don't think they should have a specific cultural group because they moved eastward. For example Galates are just an off-shoot of Volcae. How Volcae are classified should determine how we will classify Galates.

Even well...Cisalpine Celts may sound a little artificial division if I apply this logic to its end.


I don't have any knowlegde on Celtiberians

[Magnar]

so the breakdown for celts will be?:

Irish
Iberian Celts?
Transalpine Gallic
Central Gallic
Central Brittonic
North Sea Gallo-Brittonic
Atlantic Gallo-Brittonic


Keep in mind that 1 region can have multiple cultures so it is possible that we have a different cultural mix in the british regions rather than creating a new culture for each mix

eg we can mix: brittanic and gallic as separate cultures of a region

one other thing to mention is that this cultural influence that impacts public order is on a province wide impact not regionally specific. The sum of all cultures of all regions will determine the PO of the whole province and not specific regions.

[MrCrapsley]

It sounds good for what concerns tying both sides of actual Manche through common sub groups, but not really for Cisalpine celts, galates, Tylis, these guys were just off-shoots of either Carnutes, Aedui, Volcae, Senones, Cenomani, Lingones and else, personnaly I don't think they should have a specific cultural group because they moved eastward. For example Galates are just an off-shoot of Volcae. How Volcae are classified should determine how we will classify Galates.

Even well...Cisalpine Celts may sound a little artificial division if I apply this logic to its end.

Cool, we're on the same page. Your knowledge on those guys is probably better than mine. Would I be right in thinking that the Cisalpines, Volcae and Balkan Celts all had routes in the upper Danube region around the original territory of the Boii, that would become Germanised? If so, could Transalpine cover all these?

[VINC.XXIII]

Cool, we're on the same page. Your knowledge on those guys is probably better than mine. Would I be right in thinking that the Cisalpines, Volcae and Balkan Celts all had routes in the upper Danube region around the original territory of the Boii, that would become Germanised? If so, could Transalpine cover all these?

I forgotten Boii settled near actual Bologna, I think its good to considere Transalpine as broad group that can include everything else around Alps that isn't Central Gallic. Also, recent archeology and work of Julien Vial tend to contradict the version given by Caesar about Volcae, according him, what can be called "proto-Volcae" were already present around 400BC in South France, which doesn't means that there was not any ulterior migration occuring in 270BC. The point I want to make its that a good part of South France was quite "Transalpine Celt" at 275BC.

Contrary to what that wikipedia map implies(based on what Caesar written...):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae...igrations).svg

[Magnar]

Can you guys break down the Celtic regions into their categories and I'll implement it?

[MrCrapsley]

Irish
Iberian Celts?
Transalpine Gallic
Central Gallic
Central Brittonic
North Sea Gallo-Brittonic
Atlantic Gallo-Brittonic


Keep in mind that 1 region can have multiple cultures so it is possible that we have a different cultural mix in the british regions rather than creating a new culture for each mix

The list you gave there is sufficient.

In Britain and Ireland that gives:
- Kamulodunon = North Sea Gallo-Brittonic / Central Brittonic mix
- Iska = Atlantic Gallo-Brittonic / Central Brittonic mix
- Moridunon = "
- Lindon = North Sea Gallo-Brittonic / Central Brittonic mix
- Eborakon = North Sea Gallo-Brittonic
- Tribennaka = "
- Eblana = Irish



The only thing I think we haven't mentioned is proto-Basque/Aquitanian, because they're not Celtic. I thought I'd better bring them up though because there's a risk of them ending up in a kind of limbo where no researcher takes responsibility for them as they don't really belong to a big culture group.



The Gallo-Brittonic thing is a bit confusing because it seems like a mix of Gallic and Brittonic but it's actually meant to convey a unity. I would have gone for 'Atlantic Celtic' but that term would also cover the Celtic people of Atlantic Iberia. You can see that choosing the right terms involves navigating a real mess of preconceptions

[VINC.XXIII]

The only thing I think we haven't mentioned is proto-Basque/Aquitanian, because they're not Celtic. I thought I'd better bring them up though because there's a risk of them ending up in a kind of limbo where no researcher takes responsibility for them as they don't really belong to a big culture group.

Problem its really a mess, they had a Volcae-inspired numismatic, their soldures(who were Sotiates) can be considered as the quintessence of gallic cavalry, but Strabo considered them of different "race" from Bituriges in Bordeaux, and Romans separated Novempopulonia from northern Aquitania creating an ethnically homogenous province. In the map under, "Aquitania" must be understand as the later "Aquitania novempopulona"

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Still, later in imperial times, and following how Romans recruited different contingents according ethnies(then we had italic Cenomani separated from italic Veneti, Oromobi separated from Insubre...etc), you have two Cohors:
-Aquitanorum proper
-then Aquitanorum Biturigum

From Studies of Roman Imperialism


Moar map about

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[MrCrapsley]

Might be best to go for a mix of Central Gallic and Iberian then?

[VINC.XXIII]

Might be best to go for a mix of Central Gallic and Iberian then?

Very probably yes, however I'd like that Miri give his point on that. I've presented some facts, but I cannot reasonnably give a definitive anwser on something with which I'm not familiar(Iberia and proto-basque culture in Iberia).

[Miri82]

Hey mates.First of all, sorry for my bad english.

In the Iberian península we had two principal cultures. Iberians and Celts, and in the center a mix of that two. The celtiberians, celt peopple that adopted caracteristics of the coastal peopple the iberians. They adopted the system coin, that iberians had and the writen language, with some changes.

Diferentiations beetwen Spaniard Celts and Iberians:

The Base of ECONOMY was CELTS The livestock IBERIANS Agriculture and metals commerce

The SETTLEMENTS CELTS Castros IBERIANS Walled Towns

The social differentiation was a point in common of both.

The Religión CELTS Politeism with priests IBERIANS Politeism, no priests

Coin Systems CELTS None IBERIANS They had...from greeks and tartessos

Writen Languaje CELTS None IBERIANS The Iberian was a language of pre-Roman paleohispanica spoken by the Iberians in the entire Mediterranean coast peninsula.
Its expansion would go from the river Hérault in France, North Paeninsula, until no more South of Porcuna, in Jaén.

I Hope that aid a bit with the thread.

Celts: Lusitanos,Vacceos,Vascones,Galaicos,Astures,Cántabros

Iberians: Turdetanos,Bastetanos,Edetanos,Ilergetes, Balearicos.... and more that i left to remark....

Celtiberian: Arevacos,Bellos,Tittos,Lusones,Pelendones

[VINC.XXIII]

Hey mates.First of all, sorry for my bad english.

In the Iberian península we had two principal cultures. Iberians and Celts, and in the center a mix of that two. The celtiberians, celt peopple that adopted caracteristics of the coastal peopple the iberians. They adopted the system coin, that iberians had and the writen language, with some changes.

Diferentiations beetwen Spaniard Celts and Iberians:

The Base of ECONOMY was CELTS The livestock IBERIANS Agriculture and metals commerce

The SETTLEMENTS CELTS Castros IBERIANS Walled Towns

The social differentiation was a point in common of both.

The Religión CELTS Politeism with priests IBERIANS Politeism, no priests

Coin Systems CELTS None IBERIANS They had...from greeks and tartessos

Writen Languaje CELTS None IBERIANS The Iberian was a language of pre-Roman paleohispanica spoken by the Iberians in the entire Mediterranean coast peninsula.
Its expansion would go from the river Hérault in France, North Paeninsula, until no more South of Porcuna, in Jaén.

I Hope that aid a bit with the thread.

Celts: Lusitanos,Vacceos,Vascones,Galaicos,Astures,Cántabros

Iberians: Turdetanos,Bastetanos,Edetanos,Ilergetes, Balearicos.... and more that i left to remark....

Celtiberian: Arevacos,Bellos,Tittos,Lusones,Pelendones

What do you think of this map Miri?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My point was that both Strabo and Romans(how they organized Aquitania) distinguished peoples like Tarbelli, Sotiates, Elusates (who later will get their "Novempopulonia" province) from Celts living in Burdigala(Bituriges). Since we're at breaking CA vanilla cultures, splitting for example "Celtic" in numerous subgroups, we have to do the same with Iberic peoples.

This being, I wanted to propose an Aquitanian subcultural group(and put Vascones and Tarbelli, Elusates...etc together).

If you look closely how Romans separated Bituriges from Aquitanians, and creating different Cohors for them, its clear to me all these guys didn't wanted to be mixed in the same province nor in the same military units. Thats why you have Cohors Aquitanorum Biturigum(composed of Celts celts celts, the Burdigala guys) and Cohors Aquitanorum(composed of Aquitanian, proto-basque, closer to Vascones living in actual Spain).

Miri, just to precise, in case you may suspect something, I'm not Basque .

If you look the shape of roman province "Aquitania Novempopulona"(no more Bituriges into, Novempopulonia means "Land of The Nine Peoples", and are considered proto-Aquitanians), you can see shape of the province and linguistic distribution are almost conflated, that match almost perfectly)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Magnar]

Here is how I envision the whole cultural mechanic to work:

- Each region starts with a base cultural bonus to the originating culture depending on region population size and ranging from 3-10 influence total split among the present factions.
- Every building will produce culture and not necessarily for the owning faction's culture. A celtiberian coin mint might produce iberian culture for example to represent the adoption of iberian coinage into the celteberian culture.
- More advanced buildings will generate more culture and cultural buildings like religious or entertainment will generate the most.
- Many buildings especially religious and governance chains will reduce unhappiness from foreign culture where as military and trade chains will increase it.
- armies and agents will also spread culture and we can possibly re purpose the forced march stance into some cultural stance.
- edicts will also play a big role in the spread of culture.
- majority of a specific culture will be required for speicific buildings, and not necessarily the factions culture. A celt faction may require a majority greek or roman culture to build wineries perhaps.

Making certain chains require non faction culture will be difficult to manage. How does the player spread that culture? This is where ancilliaries will most likely become very important and provide large cultural bonuses to characters to allow them to spread the various non faction cultures, though this will be difficult for the ai... hmmm perhaps it will be an issue. thoughts?

[Miri82]

What do you think of this map Miri?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My point was that both Strabo and Romans(how they organized Aquitania) distinguished peoples like Tarbelli, Sotiates, Elusates (who later will get their "Novempopulonia" province) from Celts living in Burdigala(Bituriges). Since we're at breaking CA vanilla cultures, splitting for example "Celtic" in numerous subgroups, we have to do the same with Iberic peoples.

This being, I wanted to propose an Aquitanian subcultural group(and put Vascones and Tarbelli, Elusates...etc together).

If you look closely how Romans separated Bituriges from Aquitanians, and creating different Cohors for them, its clear to me all these guys didn't wanted to be mixed in the same province nor in the same military units. Thats why you have Cohors Aquitanorum Biturigum(composed of Celts celts celts, the Burdigala guys) and Cohors Aquitanorum(composed of Aquitanian, proto-basque, closer to Vascones living in actual Spain).

Miri, just to precise, in case you may suspect something, I'm not Basque .

If you look the shape of roman province "Aquitania Novempopulona"(no more Bituriges into, Novempopulonia means "Land of The Nine Peoples", and are considered proto-Aquitanians), you can see shape of the province and linguistic distribution are almost conflated, that match almost perfectly)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You are right. Vascones was not celts neither iberians. Was aquitanian culture peopple.
I was not thinking about them sorry, cause in rome total war they dont appear in grand campaign.

[VINC.XXIII]

Here is how I envision the whole cultural mechanic to work:

- Each region starts with a base cultural bonus to the originating culture depending on region population size and ranging from 3-10 influence total split among the present factions.
- Every building will produce culture and not necessarily for the owning faction's culture. A celtiberian coin mint might produce iberian culture for example to represent the adoption of iberian coinage into the celteberian culture.
- More advanced buildings will generate more culture and cultural buildings like religious or entertainment will generate the most.
- Many buildings especially religious and governance chains will reduce unhappiness from foreign culture where as military and trade chains will increase it.
- armies and agents will also spread culture and we can possibly re purpose the forced march stance into some cultural stance.
- edicts will also play a big role in the spread of culture.
- majority of a specific culture will be required for speicific buildings, and not necessarily the factions culture. A celt faction may require a majority greek or roman culture to build wineries perhaps.

Making certain chains require non faction culture will be difficult to manage. How does the player spread that culture? This is where ancilliaries will most likely become very important and provide large cultural bonuses to characters to allow them to spread the various non faction cultures, though this will be difficult for the ai... hmmm perhaps it will be an issue. thoughts?

There are too much coding parameters where I can't answer Mag, you mighty scripter, however, agents and armies spreading "cultures" generally leads to completly crazy stuff from my point. Its not about the finality of "cultural conversion", but the rate, its means that if you send several armies, spies and diplomats, druids and else you can "convert" a substantial number of peoples to a certain culture, and one decade later, another faction can do the same.

I was more encline to romanization processus through citizenship for example. Things that really impact peoples. Because with agent/armies spreading cultures, that means peoples convert magically once someone with another culture show up.

Not sure if what I'm saying is intelligible, but armies/agents spreading culture was really one of the things I thought it was too gamey and far from reality.

Edit: I know you're fan of Paradox game, just like me, do you remember how its hard to change the culture of a region in CK?

[Magnar]

yeah maybe armies spreading culture is too much.

But a i think a dignitary should be able to spread culture ie the sharing of ideas or spreading of laws in your own regions. In a foreign region it probably shouldn't work though.

[MrCrapsley]

Is it possible to have a small influence from neighboring regions? If the culture mix in each region had a small effect on the culture mix of its neighbours, this could be the foot in the door needed to allow further cultural addition. So, if a Celtic region in Hispania borders an Iberian region, it gets a single point of Iberian culture. This could be enough to construct a coin mint, which would further add Iberian culture to the region.

On that note, regarding Iberian cultures, how does this sound?
- Iberian Celtic (maybe it would be better to say something like Hispanic Celtic? It's appropriate to the era and might reduce the confusion of Iberian being used for multiple meanings)
- Lusitanian(?)
- Turdetanian
- Iberian
- Aquitanian

[Magnar]

culture is province wide so all regions in the province will combine

[MrCrapsley]

culture is province wide so all regions in the province will combine

Yeah, I keep forgetting that. Could the same principal be applied on a province level?

[Magnar]

probably not