Re: Clearing Up Misconceptions about Islam
Firstly,Thank you for your kind words.Originally Posted by DaVinci
I understand that it doesn't worth to spend much time here because it is absolutely boring sometimes because of some ignorants.
Your words really make sense, but you should notice that who was the Muhammad? An uneducated shepherd and worker, the things you say like collecting knowledge and updating them and.... only suits for a great group of philosophers(not only one) or a system of Think tanks but who are you talking about? You think only a simple uneducated man who lived between savage and uncivilized people can do this?- All what you have citated (blue) which has wisdom in it without doubt, is collected wisdom from over centuries of years of wise old men and women. It's reflection of what was gained as knowledge to the date until it was written.
- The core is belief in a one-god, which formerly was a belief in multiple gods. The messages existed already, some of them were then overworked and brought uptodate in the 7th century, for the local situation.
- It is not a muslim philosophy (or religion) originated by them, but sampled from diverse folks of or living in the orient at the time (shall i really list them up all) and also who migrated there piecefully or also by war (example, Greeks), plus a very active trade and urban life made up a big factor. The Arab rule (or muslim rule) used all that more or less properly, advanced it partially to very good results. The oriental knowledge centers are known aka were famous. Nonetheless, shall we look up the many religions and philosophies and their main protagonaists, which existed and provided the basics for the Abrahamic religions? I would like rather to give this as (long-enduring) homework to you (if you like), if you are not already aware of the historical facts (or at least what is taken as facts by scientists and authors and artists).
It would be interesting to know that the Confusius was a prophet too.All true.- The next core item is just, but i repeat myself, that the people had a strong belief in gods and then a one-god (became the new thing) - this god-belief is implanted so to speak into the genes, because it is culture for thousands of years. The people there were also easy to influence, much much easier than today ... authority and purity and non-education and fear.I've seen many things beyond science in my life but you know I can not tell them here because of various reasons.- When i speak of science knowledge, then i speak of the standing of science today, not the one of the antique or middleage! The objective scientific analysis makes a belief into a god illogical (as you interpete it, it must be felt in the heart, that's correct, agreed ... but it is your imagination, a product of your brain).
It's not only a product of my brain, you should add 1.5 billions plus other monotheists, I think you are dismissing the most of the world.If you are lucky you can see many events like miracle in Arbaeen pilgrimage.
Yes, secular countries are a good example, Just look at what they've done to the world by creating terrorists. You can see a good example of secular thought in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Religion is like a break, It avoids these kinds of brutalities. The secular countries are disgracing the religions by launching shows that real people get killed by their own recruited terrorists. The first words that sparks in my mind when I hear about the secular thoughts is the "Idealism".We prefer the realism, we do not like chanting the fake slogans.- A religion is but fine, if it makes people still glad and provides law and order, a rule of law. But, this is not necessary anymore today, because example, in secular societies, it goes also, when the state is not a Gods-state.
You can see this perspective if you look fair.
A false religion starts conflicts, who started the crusades? Definitely not the Muslims. the Salahuddin was always merciful but the Christians used to kill all of the captives and civilians, so...- Why? Because the ethics are all to find in the society incl. of course laws and rules, which are also fed by the ethics of religions, but that religion-item is private not a states-order or government-task (i couldn't live in a non-secular state). It is in the heart and souls of the people, if the education and/or socialisation doesn't fail (which unfortunately often happens).
- A religion but, has potential for conflict, and to this comes the fact, that believers can say "God wills it" (you know, that from the crusades, as analogy, still valid ... you reject that idiocy, fine, but it's not determining what you think and believe). This is also very bad, because it takes away responsibility, the one of the individuum. This is similar to crazed people who make in their life, and say, something spoke to me, i couldn't do it in another way.
I think that secular ideology (rather than religious ideology) takes responsibility away because there is no inhibition in that so you are able to do any crime and brutality(not just in public) and you don't have to answer to anyone about it because you are free,am I right?
If you look at the world with justice you can see that.
I agree with you but Islamic laws are ideal for the humans but some people break them like the other outlaws in other societies, You blame the whole society because of the outlaws?- To this comes also still, that in particular the Islam, but also orthodox christianity has clearly a segregative and indoctrine force, this starts with the roles of men and women, and ends with the many dogmas. As said it is a society manager, that was the plan by the people (the old priests) to bring out rules. What had to be the power to put enough fear to the people? Gods and then just later a one-god (the Almighty, who sees everything ... live properly, then you come into paradise, etc. etc.).
- I could go on and on and on.
- Sorry, brother. But, i respect religious people, when they don't try to missionate me. And, if they aren't extreme or even agressive in their belief which stands also for ideology.
- Those, the agressive ones, are the most bad people, aka practically fascist, and especially people who haven't learned the sense of the human rights, solidarity and empathy, but see themselves (often) religious ... i'm much more religious by the measures of the holy books than many so-called religious people, but i don't sign the God thing, I sign the Nature thing.
This because the nature aka nature sciences and also social sciences plus art-sciences give the answers for the life/about life (and history), besides of course living the life itself (you talked about, what would be ... you would seek for answers ...well i say, the life is the answer, it will bring the answers, it can at least ... a religion is the lazy way in my book).
This learning is a process, which should be furthered as much as it is possible and individually (depends on the person's will and energy/capability), and can form a proper human and optional then a proper society. This is the task!
You say it needs the Islam and a god for this and even more you say He is the one who created all and everything and is Almighty. I say, no ... wrong, an antiquated view which lives on in the humans by culture. This (god) exists only in the human's hope and perception, when they have learned it so by indoctrination from childhood on.
You should notice that the ideology you are defending has violated every human rights and supports those who do it.The religious illiteracy makes the heretic jerks, The religion itself is not a bad thing but I'm not sure about some of the people who practice it.
If you haven't noticed yet, I should say we have the exactly same opinions but sgainst each other's ideology,our aim is same but the ways are different,the only way that you can follow my way is: You should be fair and face the Shia scholars like you've studied in science, You should see the both way to choose wisely.
I am definitely sure that you'll get convinced by them.
As I said our thoughts are same but with the difference in the God belief itself so don't make a wall between yourself and Islam, you are almost a 60% Muslim,You can solve the God belief issue with yourself only with a short trip to Iran,Qom and talking with an Islamic propagandist in the Islamic Seminary(don't worry about the safety, Iran is much more safer than Europe).If you were lucky you'll find one who knows German language.If you are interested, maybe I could find one in Europe.And this goes with the contemporary knowledge, instead with a worldview, that was philosophered circa 1500 years and more ago - this is progress, positive progress if understood right, because it frees up for new horizons.
Or i could also say "living in the Now" (instead in the past) or who goes into details by studying a lot different departments (incl. religions and archeo-/history, of course) and from the life itself with open eyes "experiencing/learning the life and universum" (which is the nature), and the very reason, why religion goes not hand in hand with progressive science. For you it is all god and ready (the easy way), for me it is all nature (which is subject to be learned/researched), what you but call god (the nature).
Also, the good is in the people, as well as is the agression, it's in our genes and then education is the factor/trigger which makes unfolds the capabilites (or just not, if education fails).
The latter, the agression, can be solved with love and peace education alone plus enough freedom and self-unfolding! The agression can also be supported/furthered, of course, by education.
If this education is used by a religion, especially the Abrahmamic ones, then it but will without doubt go with dogmas and opression. Just in the moment, when something is forced ... and believe me, a religious belief is a forced item, if not the person has a free choice. I have but no problems with the contents of religions, which manage certain daily life aka are life-help, and if it is uptodate or old wisdom updated! That is just what education must do, but must also verify or lead the child to self-unfolding and freedom of choice, a full capable person, this by all means btw. independent of the gender! The Islamic world has lots to do, as has the western and overall christian/jewish world, as well as the buddhist and hinduist etc. world. It's up to the people, not religions. The hope can only be: Do it before the world blows up or the earth gets otherwise a not anymore sane platform for the life.
Excuse me? True Muslims? They are not even that worthy to be called animals, Where did you met those Muslims who like Islam to be disgraced?
Don't take it as an offence but I think you are justifying your laziness about researching in Islam, when I was reading Bible I had the same feeling but I read it after all but I'm not really sure it was a waste of time actually instead of that I think I've increased my knowledge and this is enough for me.This is why I avoid holy books. Arguments about what they "really" mean are pointless and - from my perspective - a total waste of time. What matters is the actions a people are willing to take, the laws and interpretation of those laws that a society lives by.
I can't 100% agree with your identification of ignorance as either a sufficient or necessary condition for terrorism. Babies are generally ignorant, does that make them necessarily terrorists? And weren't a number of high profile terrorists like the 9/11 hijackers quite well educated? There may be a relationship but I don't think you've quite winkled it out. Certainly it's not sufficient to accuse TWC members of terrorist inclinations on account of their not being as well informed about your country as they could be.
Educated in what? definetly not in Islam,If the baby remains ignorant, yes he has a great potential, I've seen many terrorists who have been arrested in Iran and then we've guided them to Islam and now they are Shia, My knowledge about the terrorism is first hand because I know some of the former Wahhabies and terrorists and they've told me exactly the same words I'm telling to you now, The Ignorance has many branches and each one of them leads to the same source so I repeat again that the Ignorance is the basic of terrorism and brutality. You can find ignorants in every corner of the world but they have different names and titles, one is a senator in US, another one is a president or will become one, one works in the police and so on but due to the different social conditions they commit different crimes compared to the each other.
The reason I'm insisting on the ignorant's word is: You can justify your crimes for them much more easier than for knowledgeable persons, for example if the government of Iran does a terrorist action like the ones which ISIS does, The Iranians(and Islamic clerics) themselves will destroy that government rather than a foreign country but in the same case you can see nobody in US act seriously against the war crimes are committed by US and its allies, even you can see some guys are supporting and loving one of those allies(look at the last comments of my other thread). Supporting the brutality(Instead of "not being well informed") is a sign of terrorism,Am I right?
Acceptance of brutality is no different than the terrorism, actually it's one of the branches of terrorism.This also brings me back to the discussion Setekh and I had. Would you agree with us that the tendency to accept violence in the name of Islam (erroneous as this may be from a strict theological perspective) is more indicative of military and economic hardship these people are under? Is this a case of people bending their ideology to actions they find themselves inclined or forced to take in self defense? I could understand that, although I still wonder about guys like Osama Bin Ladin, who could hardly be seen as ill-educated or destitute. Some of these people are clearly well educated and from privileged backgrounds. Yet the majority of their followers/victims are likely as you describe.But all this still leaves us with the "what to do" question. Suppose the vast majority of people within the Islamic world who are becoming more accepting of violence in the name of Islam are - as Setekh stated - doing so more because of terrible hardships for which the West is at least partially culpable. How can we turn this around?
Advanced terrorism with advanced leaders is created by western powers to create a new middle east, it is a part of divide and conquer policy which is the western governments favorite.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
If you want to remove the Weeds you must destroy the root, any other solution is temporary and will have much worse consequences, now you tell me what should we do? Where are the roots?
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have jewish friends too but never a xmas card
