Despicable me - an odd campaign event concerning reputation

[Rad]

Playing a vh/vh Carthage campaign.

I was sieging Iltirta (Celtiberian) with an army, when a relief force came in. Together with the garrison, they were a little over 4000. I had around 2500-2600 soldiers, but it was a bridge battle, so why not?
The result was a smashing victory. 300 of my dead, compared to 1200 theirs, with 2500 captured. Knowing that they could not pay, I decided to ransom the prisoners, and get rid of them in a "clean" manner, thinking that my reputation won't get damaged like it would if I just enslaved them.
I also sacked the town upon taking it, being willing to lose some reputation to get a more peaceful city. My reputation went from Reliable to Descpicable! Basically, from honorable commander to Satan in one battle lol.

I loaded a save game, with the desire to not be a douchebag. Replayed the battle, won again. 200 of my dead, compared to 900 of theirs, with 3100 captives. This time, I release the prisoners and take the town without sacking it. Still, reputation drops from Reliable from Deceitful. What the heck? Why? It should actually increase when one releases prisoners and takes cities peacefully.

[Cookiegod]

Pergamon here - We just don't like you! Deal with it
And now seriously: Seems to be scripted. Perhaps to make the Romans attack you as been the case before the second punic war?

[Rad]

I think it's 225-226 BC... could be.

[Cookiegod]

More likely because the second punic war started with Carthago conquering something in Iberia, if I recall correctly.

[romanius24]

I dont think reputation has ever worked correctly.

[Rad]

More likely because the second punic war started with Carthago conquering something in Iberia, if I recall correctly.

But I took that town before and gave it back to the Celtiberians in a peace treaty. I don't remember the rep drop then. I pretty much use that province as a predictable battleground, so my provinces are spared. I don't want to destroy the Celtiberians or Romans just yet.

[nvm]

But I took that town before and gave it back to the Celtiberians in a peace treaty. I don't remember the rep drop then. I pretty much use that province as a predictable battleground, so my provinces are spared. I don't want to destroy the Celtiberians or Romans just yet.

That's exactly why it happened then - if you take back a town that you gave away to someone else in diplomacy, you suffer a massive reputation hit. I'm not sure though if that still happens if the town is taken by someone else instead, and you take it back again.

[Rad]

Are you sure? I've read about Reputation factors, don't remember anything about that.

[nvm]

100% sure. Taking a city which you gave away to another faction will really dump your reputation. You can see it listed there: http://www.twcenter.net/wiki/Reputation_(M2TW) (stealing back a settlement) and in other forum posts regarding M2TW reputation.

[Rad]

I see. Must have forgot about that one. Well, I loaded a save game in which I didn't even siege that city. I concluded peace, and I shouldnt have problems of that type any time soon. Thanks for the heads up, it should save face in the future!

[Funkmaster Rick]

I vaguely recall reading a thing on reputation years ago. It's vague enough that I could be totally wrong, but just off the top of my head and calling on experience, here's my theory on how reputation works:

All factions are constantly reporting to other factions they have contact with - this includes trading routes, direct connection, and I think it might even take diplomat units into account. Not so sure about that last one.
These factions tell each other things like, "Player is a giant poopyface," based solely upon their own opinion of Player.
Their opinion of Player is influenced by things like how often you've attacked them, if you've been chivalrous or dastardly in war, how respectful you've been of their borders, initial diplomatic settings, etc.
Presumably at the end of each turn, they compare notes on how much they like you, with their mutual opinions shifting towards an average by a little bit each turn.
There's probably a structure for copying the pre-discussion state of international diplomatic standings for reference, then using that data to change the post-discussion state, so it's possible this all happens at the end of your turn or the end of the rebel turn.

So with that theory in mind, the way I read your report is, "Spain had a lot of friends, so when I walked in and pushed them around, they went crying to everyone they knew and convinced them I was mean." The real challenge of this sort of system is that there's no reliable way to determine who's friends with whom other than paying attention to alliances, using spies to track trade routes, and making educated guesses based on the reported 'reliability' factor of a nation in your diplomatic tab.

[Rad]

Nope. It was the above mentioned taking of a city which I previously granted to the enemy faction via diplomacy.
I had been pushing them around for the previous 20-30 turns, nothing bad happened... to me
There was no change in reputation until I took the town. When I did, it plummeted. I loaded a save, replayed the battle, this time releasing the prisoners and not sacking the city. It still plummeted. I loaded another save, didn't even siege the town, but defeated the same armies... no drop in reputation.

[Funkmaster Rick]

Ooh, well that's probably it right there. I suspect the AI correctly read that as dirty dealing, taking back a city you'd previously ceded to them. After all, giving them the city is pretty much officially recognising that it's their sovereign land by right - conquering it afterwards sends mixed signals. You are untrustworthy! =p

[demagogos nicator]

I really hoped that this M2TW feature was disabled in EB2. While it makes sense that your reputation drops if you conquere the settlement you have just given to the faction via diplmacy I can not see why it should drop when I conquere (even temporarily) the settlements many years a way as a result of defferent political situation in the word or treachery of the faction which has recieved the settlement.

[Rad]

Ooh, well that's probably it right there. I suspect the AI correctly read that as dirty dealing, taking back a city you'd previously ceded to them. After all, giving them the city is pretty much officially recognising that it's their sovereign land by right - conquering it afterwards sends mixed signals. You are untrustworthy! =p

But, but... I want them to love me while I eradicate them!

@demagogos... yeah, it sucks. I am quite reluctant to attack them now.

[Rad]

Never, ever give cities via diplomacy, folks.
Learn from me lol

[Rad]

Using this thread, so I don't clutter the forum with a new one. This really is an odd campaign event.

I just had a faction die out during its turn. The Celtiberians are no more. I've been hitting them hard, with both armies and assassins/spies, they were down to 4 demolished provinces, but I didn't expect this lol. The last FM must have gone bye bye. Has this ever happened to you?

Edit: It seems to have been the work of a Pritanoi assassin with zero skill... so, major lucky event. Although I like the turn of events, it feels too easy, undeserved. Since they have one remaining FM left, I am going give them the honor of a siege.

[Dooz]

it feels too easy, undeserved

i mean.....

I've been hitting them hard, with both armies and assassins/spies

I've seen factions cease to become 'factions' when I played a mod with 12tpy, cause my guess is it took so long for FM's to come of age, and over the course of endless wars current ones would die off and have no replacements. It was pretty cool seeing half of Medieval Iberia turn 'rebel' or 'independent' or whatever, and have Portugal and the other Spanish faction swallow up their former territory. Same kinda thing happened with the Seljuk Turks and another faction I think over the course of that campaign. It's cool for roleplay and coming up with stories for these kinds of sequences of events, but I can see how people might not be into it.

[Rad]

What's your point? My own efforts feel rewarding, seeing some random Pritanoi killer winning the lottery doesn't.

I fought the city battle. Sweet unborn Jesus, the lag! The lag!
Never have I made a bigger mistake in this game lol.

[Dooz]

Glory hog! Jealous of the AI and paid the price for it, lol.