Coup attempt in Turkey.

[Maiar93]

The deal with Turkey could fall through the floor. Maybe it's better that it will, given the treatment of refugees Erdogan sanctions.

[bekiristein]

QUOTE=Setekh;15059795]There is a difference between monitoring army movements, and monitoring a coup plan. At 16:00, supposedly, the MIT informed the chief of general staff and the army commander of an imminent coup plan, half an hour later Erdoğan was notified. At that point, there was no mobilization of forces. So, your point there falls flat.

Just because the "coup" was orchestrated by Erdoğan himself doesn't mean that he told everyone in his team. That would be too many loose ends. Likely only a few people knew, like his son-in-law who was smiling at the press conference in Istanbul just after they landed. An F-16 locking to the plane helps to scare people off. By the way, initially, the story was that the presidential plane used a Turkish Airlines code to avoid "coup" jets, that that's how it managed to stay off the radar, the metaphorical one, as it flew to Istanbul. Quite absurd either way.

No, bad planning can not explain the coup failing, the same way being a bad driver can not explain how someone can't even start a car. What people seem to not realize that just because something was staged doesn't mean every moment was planned and every actor was bought. He could easily, using only a few generals, stir up a movement through misinformation, telling different generals how there is a large "coup" movement with wide support from many organizations and other tactics. Implant few trigger happy soldiers and you have chaos.

Do you honestly believe that everything suspicious about this "coup" attempt can be explained by incompetence?[/QUOTE]

-Army movements that can't be justified are a sign of a coup attempt and it's quite logical that MIT could easily explain them. As for the hours you could inform us when every unit that participated in the coup started to prepare and when they started to move.In the Greek TV said that the Greek military noticed them in the evening of the same day.
- You don't know what the orders of the F-16's were, you don't know if the pilots decided to pull off because the didn't want any more trouble, you don't know if there was a contact between Erdogan's plane and the F-16's.
- It can, especially when they didn't have enough information. Bad planning, poor execution can explain why the coup failed.
I am not an Erdogan sympathizer. There is a need for a political change in Turkey but that doesn't justify a coup atempt.
Sorry but i don't have time to post again.

[PointOfViewGun]

-Army movements that can't be justified are a sign of a coup attempt and it's quite logical that MIT could easily explain them. As for the hours you could inform us when every unit that participated in the coup started to prepare and when they started to move.In the Greek TV said that the Greek military noticed them in the evening of the same day.
- You don't know what the orders of the F-16's were, you don't know if the pilots decided to pull off because the didn't want any more trouble, you don't know if there was a contact between Erdogan's plane and the F-16's.
- It can, especially when they didn't have enough information. Bad planning, poor execution can explain why the coup failed.
I am not an Erdogan sympathizer. There is a need for a political change in Turkey but that doesn't justify a coup atempt.
Sorry but i don't have time to post again.

Sigh... The official narrative is that the "coup" was not planned to take effect till about 2-3 am. MIT, the intelligence agency, informed the president and the top army officials around 16:00. There was no soldier movement till about 22:00. What MIT reported was not based on troop movement.

The pilots wanted enough trouble to lock on his plane but they didn't want enough trouble to force it down or shoot it down? This story also doesn't explain the initial story of the plane avoiding the jets by using Turkish Airlines codes. Which is it? Locked by jets or sneaked by civilian codes?

You can? Then explain these:

1) The air chief marshal and other air force generals were kidnapped from a wedding in the middle of Istanbul using a single Sikorsky chopper. This happened at a time around 22:30. A single chopper was able to kidnap one of the highest ranking generals in the army at a time when the army battles both PKK and ISIL.

2) No attempt was made to capture any government official or parliament member, only a half-assed effort was made against Erdoğan. That's one of the core requirements of a coup since it has the purpose of taking over the government. In the past coup attempts, the first thing that would happen was the arrest of all government officials and party leaders. For the entire night, the entire government and AKP member, heck even many pro-government army officials, were on TV via their phones giving speeches...

3) Only 13 soldiers were sent to the presidential palace. An enormous compound that houses many buildings with over 1000 rooms. The gate area alone had 16 police officers that easily arrested the 13 soldiers. A bomb was dropped near the compound. Not on any buildings. Not inside the compound, but just outside the walls at a random point. Just one bomb. No damage on the walls...

4) Only two TV stations were harassed, briefly, with only a few soldiers. TRT, the government TV station, was used briefly to air a declaration. CNN Turk, one of the most popular TV news channels, was briefly raided by a few soldiers. The broadcast was not cut. Only the news room was emptied. No other important and popular TV stations, like NTV or HaberTurk, were raided.

5) The bridge was the first place people started seeing soldiers at around 22:00. The soldiers only closed down the bridge in one direction. One direction. There were still cars going past them for a long time.

6) I listened to the prime minister on live TV around midnight. He specifically pointed out that he gave orders to shoot down any jet or helicopter belonging to the "coup" putschist. Remember the random bombing on point (3)? It happened hours after that information after the sunrise. So, despite the prime minister giving order to shoot down any jet or helicopter belonging to the putschists they continued flying and opening fire for hours. Not a single jet was shot down. Only a single helicopter was down.

7) On Friday night, there was at most 1000 soldiers in the streets. Most people who witnessed the 1960 or 1980 coup simply looked outside their window to check if there was a soldier on the corner of the street and seeing no one was there realized that this was no coup. When a coup happens all the soldiers the putschists can muster march on the streets. Today, 26 generals of the highest ranks are arrested. We're supposed to believe that the top generals of the army could only muster a thousand man. We're talking about four star generals (orgeneral), 2 star generals (korgeneral) and 1 star generals (tuğgeneral). Check Wikipedia to see how high ranking these are.

I can go on and on. Another interesting point though, the airforce general that is arrested for being the head of this "coup" is Akın Öztürk. He was supposed to be retiring last year as his term as a general was ending. By request of Erdoğan he was appointed to the Supreme Military Council of Turkey which prolonged his rank as a general. Go figure.

[+Marius+]

Arrested with alleged links to the plot reaches 7,543.

Arrested include more than 100 police officers, 755 judges and prosecutors and 650 civilians.

Earlier Monday, a senior security official told the Reuters news agency that 8,000 police officers, including those based in the capital Ankara and the biggest city Istanbul, had been removed from their posts.

About 1,500 finance ministry officials were suspended, a ministry official said, and CNN Turk said 30 governors and more than 50 high-ranking civil servants were also dismissed.

[Derpy Hooves]

Wow that's like 20,000 people who have lost their jobs, arrested, or executed. If the coup had that amount, it would have succeeded

[Odenat]

Wow that's like 20,000 people who have lost their jobs, arrested, or executed. If the coup had that amount, it would have succeeded

No one is being executed. We are not barbarians. They would be given fair trials and if found guilty, they will be executed like traitors. Also, as they are not Muslims, no last prayers will be given to them. Their corpse won't be buried at Muslim cemeteries.

This is much less than those traitors deserve. A soldier who opened fire on civilians deserve death.

And if anybody is unhappy with death penalty; read this, it clearly says that if you kill civilians or order civilians to be killed, you will get death penalty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Crimes_Act_of_1996

I can go on and on. Another interesting point though, the airforce general that is arrested for being the head of this "coup" is Akın Öztürk. He was supposed to be retiring last year as his term as a general was ending. By request of Erdoğan he was appointed to the Supreme Military Council of Turkey which prolonged his rank as a general. Go figure.

Come on, Setekh. Akın Öztürk is arrested and is facing death penalty. If Erdoğan is responsible, he would speak. Somehow, none of the generals you mentioned says that they got those orders from Erdoğan. If someone near Erdoğan said to them to make a coup, they don't say it too.

Tell me, do you really think those generals are ready to die to protect Erdoğan and to make him president? What you writes make no sense at all.

Nobody denies that Erdoğan, like an idiot, supported FETO members to take important places inside the army and state. He himself said that he was tricked by them. But that does not mean he organized a coup against himself. And why would he? He easily wins every election.

[AnthoniusII]

It seams that the coup is not over yet.
According to Times and Daily Mail , 14 Turkish Navy ships have not yet reported to their bases. The article suposes that ploters of that coup have those ships under their command. Also the articles assume that they will ask asylum to Greece. One diference though..A "war ship" is not a single helicopter and aproaching greek coasts can easily be a trick for landing assault!
Greek Navy ordered its units to SINK any ship that will aproach Greek coasts in any suspicius way. This is a very delicate issue here!

[PointOfViewGun]

Come on, Setekh. Akın Öztürk is arrested and is facing death penalty. If Erdoğan is responsible, he would speak. Somehow, none of the generals you mentioned says that they got those orders from Erdoğan. If someone near Erdoğan said to them to make a coup, they don't say it too.

Tell me, do you really think those generals are ready to die to protect Erdoğan and to make him president? What you writes make no sense at all.

Nobody denies that Erdoğan, like an idiot, supported FETO members to take important places inside the army and state. He himself said that he was tricked by them. But that does not mean he organized a coup against himself. And why would he? He easily wins every election.

Ignoring the mountain to attack the hill, I see... Isn't it ironic that you're unable to address 95% of what I say but then demand answers about this one?
We don't know what will actually happen to the generals. Even if they want to speak about will you be able to hear it?
Nobody argued that he ordered generals around to stage a coup scenario but that he was behind it, that he orchestrated it. Just because Erdoğan orchestrated the "coup" doesn't mean he was behind every single person. He could be using a few generals to whisper non-existent widespread support for a coup into ears of some known dissident generals while keeping them in high ranking positions.
He might be winning elections enough to stay in power he is not winning enough to change the political system to presidency. He needs that to be able to stay in power.

It seams that the coup is not over yet.
According to Times and Daily Mail , 14 Turkish Navy ships have not yet reported to their bases. The article suposes that ploters of that coup have those ships under their command. Also the articles assume that they will ask asylum to Greece. One diference though..A "war ship" is not a single helicopter and aproaching greek coasts can easily be a trick for landing assault!
Greek Navy ordered its units to SINK any ship that will aproach Greek coasts in any suspicius way. This is a very delicate issue here!

I'm quoting this post to highlight one of the most idiotic implications one ever used in these forum; implying that Turkish ships might be trying to stage a landing assault on Greek coast. This must be the rock bottom.

[caratacus]

This is turning into a Stalinist type purge. Perhaps these staff weren't Islamist enough?

Turkey coup: 15,200 education staff suspended
Turkey has suspended 15,200 education staff for alleged ties to an exiled cleric it blames for last week's failed coup.

Turkey's High Education board has also ordered the resignation of more than 1,500 university deans, state media reported
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36838347

And how on earth do you loose 14 naval vessels in the Aegean, I mean come on, is this a NATO country!!

[Basil II the B.S]

Wow, he's single handedly killing any kind of dissent.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I'm also of the mind that conspiracies do happen all the time, and we only learn about a few of them, the failed ones and some of the successful ones decades later. The really successful ones are never heard of.

so this is either a real, really badly executed coup or a semi-badly planned fake coup ( because a lot of people including Turkish and foreign officials already suspect or downright call it that ).

[Hartmann]

I’ve got a question for the Turks in this forum actually living in Turkey about this Gülen movement. Afaik the military in Turkey always has been a strong pillar of Kemalism and secularity. How reasonable is it, that the Military suddenly shall be a stronghold of the so called Gülen parallel state structure, as Erdogan and his AKP proclaim? Gülen and AKP are both islamist by the way, the military was not afaik, but the last remaining secular instiution of Turkey.

I know, that Erdogan before the coup already gained control of parts of the military by putting loyal men in charge. So the military was already undermined by AKP, which explains why not all military branches joined the coup.
I already talked to befriended liberal Turks in Germany, who all said, that the military is still secular and kemalistic and has got nothing to do with this islamist Gülen group whatsoever. This story is just made up, they said.
At least there are a lot of things very suspicious about this failed coup. F.e. that so few military was seen on the streets, that they didn’t take really strategic crucial positions, but instead send a handful of soldiers to places where they were easily overwhelmed by the angered masses, that they didn’t shut down media stations and didn’t make a real effort to capture Erdogan and leading AKP party members first and foremost.
Also Erdogan seemed to be very well prepared, the super quick nationwide sms to all Turkish cell phone owners to occupy the streets and resist the military, he was able to land in Istanbul, although putschist airforce controlled the air space over Istanbul, and he was greeted by his mobilized supporters, instead of military police waiting for him there to arrest him eventually and least but not last the quick mass imprisonment of approximately around 6000 people (lists of names must have been made a long time ago) the very next day!

At least cui bono? Clearly Erdogan profits enormously of this failed coup. Astonishing quickly he uses the failed “coup”, which was totally dilettante at least, for his own means by pushing any kind of resistance in every state institution out of office. What do all those judges, prosecutors and officials have to do with the putschist military? The real coup just began, methinks… Erdogan uses this failed coup as pretence for the complete transformation of Turkey and to usurp all power by placing loyal AKP members into every position to be “cleansed”.
I also feel very sorry for the many young putschist soldiers, often draftees, who just followed orders and who have been beaten, humiliated, some even lynched brutally by AKP-hooligans after surrender. I haven’t seen any coverage, yet, of putschist soldiers firing into the angry mob! I also haven’t seen how putschist tanks overran people. But I have seen a lot of disturbing images and vids of mob violence against surrendered soldiers, while the police forces didn’t stop the angry mob at all. Now I have seen footage of putschist soldiers bound naked and humilated, photos of putschist soldiers after police interrogation with beaten up faces and covered in blood or another video where an Erdogan police officer (who rather looks like a rabid pittbull) beats up a Putschist general, while screaming like a madman.
Since Erdogan now even wants to implement the death penalty again, Europe mustn’t look aside, while thousands of people in Turkey, who surely won’t get a fair trial, might get mass executed. In my eyes Europe must take a tough stance here and insist on fair trials and that the mistreatment (which is even an understatement) of surrendered soldiers by AKP hooligans and brutish police forces must be punished as well.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

What does history teach us about armies made of scared soldiers? They never go too far.

There is no way in hell those 6000 arrested soldiers were in on the coup, they had no idea what the was going on until it was already going on I wager.

[Roma_Victrix]

Jesus Christ. There were 1,500 deans of colleges aligned with the coup? Really? That sounds like an absolutely astounding, bogus figure cooked up by Erdogan's regime. It just sounds like he's targeting academia in general, because reasons, just because. Don't question the leader!

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Jesus Christ. There were 1,500 deans of colleges aligned with the coup? Really? That sounds like an absolutely astounding, bogus figure cooked up by Erdogan's regime. It just sounds like he's targeting academia in general, because reasons, just because. Don't question the leader!

He is damn scared of educated people because he and his followers have a huge infiority complex because they are not educated.

[Tureuki]

Funny thing is there was an imam at the day or next day of event, who was praying as "May Allah protect us from the evildoings of educated people" on live tv.

[alhoon]

Wow... I didn't know Turkey had as many universities! Well, sucks for the deans, but at least he's not closing down those 1500 universities so aside of trying to manipulate higher education to get them on his boat (which is repugnant) higher education is not sinking. It will become a tool of the regime, but it's still there. Replacing the deans doesn't change the whole stuff, curriculum and students.

[Tureuki]

A lot of these universities are opened under AKP supervision, they wouldn't touch them. Aim is destroying the university culture which they think produces anarchists and leftists and turn the universities into some kind of next level high schools that stands at every corner.

[dogukan]

I’ve got a question for the Turks in this forum actually living in Turkey about this Gülen movement. Afaik the military in Turkey always has been a strong pillar of Kemalism and secularity. How reasonable is it, that the Military suddenly shall be a stronghold of the so called Gülen parallel state structure, as Erdogan and his AKP proclaim? Gülen and AKP are both islamist by the way, the military was not afaik, but the last remaining secular instiution of Turkey.

Gülenists are an organization that resembles a faction from the Assasins Creed.
They support kids from a very young age with everything, especially education, they make them infiltrate everywhere. They are quiet liberal in how they can live depending on where they are in order to adapt(nationalist, secularist, conservative..etc). Decades later many of them get to influential positions. Businessman, the army, the police, the juidicary, all sorts of mid to high bureucratic positions like governors, education ministry staff, ...etc.
They believe in the superiority of the leader, F.Gülen. He is like a mahdi to them, like another prophet. They have raised millions people all over the world this way over the years.
I don't think they had the top generals, but many mid-tier generals and lower were Gülenists.

To be fair, this is a work that took decades. This much infiltration.
For a long time, the secular Kemalists feared the Gulenists. They were the main threat to secularism. In fact many thought AKP was controlled by Gülen. It all got confusing around 2010s when they started conflicting.
AKP along with the support of Gülenist juidicial structure have smashed the military to bits sometimes with legit coup concerns somtimes with fabricated evidence that ruined lives of many officers(can't say I have a problem with that, not a fan of military). The next generations were full of soldiers Gülen had raised back in the day.
AKP-Gülen acted together in taking down the coupy, militarist yet secular Kemalist structure.
Now they are fighting over power pretty much.

There are still secular Kemalist officers most likely. Thats pretty much the institutional structure of the army. The army was complaning from Gülenist infiltration long ago, they did not take over the whole structure but they did infiltrate quiet a lot.

[jo the greek]

Many Turks nationalist were proud of their army and how greece they ca crush the bankrupt Greece in a conflict . Now turkey has no army and 3 distinct groups that calls now terrorists Actually 2 and one ex friend called ISIS . Look how life changes . As Greek say do not wish for the destruction of your neighboar. Greece would profit a lot froma democratic advanced Turkey...