Coup attempt in Turkey.

[PointOfViewGun]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fethullah-g...rotests-475507 - "If you claim that protesters are not seeking their rights, then you would ignore the innocent demands of some," he said in reference to Erdogan labelling demonstrators as "looters" or "small fringe groups". "We need to act smart and see the smallest problems as very big and we need to handle them in a smart way. If innocent people are killed, if some are choked with gas bombs and if some are blind enough not to see, the fire could rage," he continued.

In short, if the government doesn't give in to these activists' (the Gulenites) demands, there might be trouble. Mr. Gulen is deliberately pouring gas on fire and signaling those in his "school" that it is OK to result to civil violence if X or Y isn't given to them. Again I am not discussing about what is right or wrong, I am simply pointing out that he is encouraging civil disobedience.

"If and when necessary you will turn the courts upside down and grab them in your palm. You will pay off attorneys; you will pay off judges". Part of his "teachings". - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiebyimUy40

Speaking of which.. don't you find it funny that the US condemns Erdogan for jailing or dismissing the men following Gulen's teachings but at the same time they have begun to outlaw Gulen's schools in the USA? But I guess Turkey must suck it up in the US' view of things.

Now I couldn't find the reference where he comes in and says something along the line "it is normal for terrorism to occur in Turkey because of X and Y" I will keep mining the web for those short statements. Feel free to not believe me on this one until I find a source.

So, I am a Gülenist now? You're referring to the Gezi protests and labeling the protesters as Gülenists. I was there. It's not just that it's downright baseless but it doesn't even support your claims.

Then you top it of with a video that's quite muffled and hardly audible that uses a Gülen sounding guy making an out of context irrelevant statement followed by a not Gülen sounding guy making a statement in favor of criminal activity. It's a rather amateur way of trying to make up proof.

The part you talk about US response to Erdoğan and Gülen doesn't really help you at all. US didn't condemn Erdoğan jailing or dismissing anyone. You're confusing condemning that with warning unlawful prosecution of people. Everyone does it. Not just USA.

You won't be able to find any real proof of Gülen making the kind of troubling statements you claim he does. Someone like him doesn't let something like that get publicized.

Did you misunderstand that thing?
FYI, the petion mentioned (link location) is a legal democratic option to make the EU aware of the public's opinion in the matter of Erdogans actions in relation to ongoing EU-membership consultations.

What do you mean with "any such move"?
Stopping the EU-membership consultations as long democratic principles are "mistreated", to say the least, is the matter in question, not "any such move".
And, can you provide reliable sources for "... EU, an union that actively helped Erdoğan's party win the elections"? I don't say that isn't or couldn't be the case, but ... sources?

The move I saw in that link, the first one you gave, was to cease all negotiations about EU membership. They won't take any meaningful steps forward, but they won't cease it either.

Records on a meeting between Erdoğan and EU officials were leaked a while ago. Juncker points out that they delayed the EU progress report till the elections have passed for Erdoğan. You can read the transcript if you go through the link to it on the article.

Why did people go in the street for him if they are not happy with his presidency? The majority of Turks might not want Sharia, but they sure as hell want Erdogan to continue being president. Am I wrong?

Just because a group of people are against something it doesn't mean they're for something else.

"That's not how its works. You can't make radical changes that effects everyone's life without having the approval of everyone." - I beg to differ. If there is a Turk village in which we have 100 Muslims and 10 Christians it is only normal that the 10 respect the culture and will of the 100. If the Muslims decide that a church ringing it's bells has no place in their village then that is final. No one is forbidden on practicing their cult, but they do so in privacy.

Our laws are not constructed to be in favor of rule of the mob. We have fundamental rules that act as checks and balances to keep the mob in check so that the church can ring its bells.

[conon394]

Don't you recall Turkey shooting an SU-24 down? That was an act of war

Only if you are looking to start one. The Russian plane violate Turkish airspace failed to respond to being warned away. That was verified by a third party the US. Did Russia go on alert did Turkey? Not really they played some games with missile deployments. and countermeasure and Russia tossed around some vague tough words but that always happens in these cases.

The end was to assassinate Erdogan because he was falling out of line. USA demands Turkey to be hostile to Russia

It does - News to me.

he decided not to use the $ as petrol currency and began purchasing gold to back up an emerging African currency.

That is such a ludicrous statement. Now I grant Russia, China working Iran and a continued deterioration in the US/House Saud relationship may see the end of Oil valued in dollars - so what personaly it think costs the US more than its worth. The only people really worried are the Market trading types who fear some fantasy surprise one unrealistic change.

The people that seem to think a bunch of rebels armed with AK's can defeat AN ARMY

Umm they had a lot of defectors from the Army and Qatar was shipping in arms and money to the rebels by the boat load. any way Its yes they pretty much all they needed to defeat Gaddi's army see Libyan Chad war:

Did the US attack Israel over the USS liberty - even though it was obvious it was not a mistake:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

How about that P3 Orion that got hit by a Chinese aircraft:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

How the USS Stark:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_incident

The governments posture and complain but even when they throw around the word war they either looking to save face or get an apology or a better one or such.

(unlike how the USA would have hoped) economic sanctions and deporting of Turks working in Russia followed. It mainly made them hostile, which suited USA doctrine.

What do think the USA would have hoped? You got me confused Turks have no agency they can't decision some the mind controlled the pilot to defend Turkish air space for what reason?

As far as I know it was a Turkish pilot who made the decision to shoot and presumably had the authorization to do so, if Russia wanted to be dicks about it how does that imply anything about the US or its policies.

which suited USA doctrine

What doctrine would that be?

Turk officials began visiting Moscow. To what point? Either they visited Moscow to swear at Russian officials or they tried to reconcile with them.

That is usually called a private and frank discussion in diplomatic speech.

This however, was extremely displeasing to the USA. So displeasing,

Now you just making things up why would it displease the US?

Yes, I do really believe they engineered the plot.

Then I hope a lot CIA people likely got fired because that was a pathetic attempt at one.

that they decided to do what they do to every statesman that opposes them: attempt an assassination. Gadaffi, Sadam Hussein, Bashad, Yanukovych are all "guilty" of not sucking it up to the USA.

Gaddaffi, Sadam Hussein, Assad. Wow you really have a low opnion of you own leader if that's the kind of company you want to put him in with.

Yanukovych

Looks like a problem between Him and his own people and last time I checked he not dead

For example, Gadaffi was assassinated by USA coup because he decided not to use the $ as petrol currency and began purchasing gold to back up an emerging African currency

Looked like a rather spontaneous move by people in his own country tired of his dictatorship. Besides his was not exactly the A team see Toyoda War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_War

Yanukovych said no to the EU and NATO, soon after we all know what happened to Ukraine.

What Russia invaded it?

Yanukovych said no to the EU and NATO

He was never going to get offer to join NATO

Just like the USA forces the EU to impose sanctions on Russia.

You don't talk to Many Poles, Romanians or anyone from the Baltic's Huh?

edit: So your Romanian lead any anti EU demonstrations or anti sanction ones. I failed to notice a big cry opposition about EU policy.

--------------

edit more:

but at the same time they have begun to outlaw Gulen's schools in the USA

Umm negative, nope, no. Various individual schools have fined or investigated, for financial and immigration fraud, and bid fixing. I don't know that any have closed. Certainly there is no issue with for binging founded by the Gulen movement. Nor could say the US is outlawing them rather various schools various lawsuits and investigations for mostly financial flim flam. Which I might add is problem with many other US charter schools. Or things like Trump University.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

A religious, possibly cia backed cult taking over the country.

Assuming the Gülenists were indeed behind the coup, how is their brand of political Islam different than the one taking flesh under Erdogan's governance? They were allies until a couple of years ago, after all. I also do not see why their ruthlessness and aspiration to control the state apparatus is any different from the means used by Erdogan to forge his own regime. How many capable and promising officers lives' has Erdogan ruined because they were secularists?

[Tureuki]

Why are you focusing on the political islam part and ignoring the rest? Could it be because you only care about that?

Gulenists whisper behind doors, Erdogan shout everything he needs to say out there in public. I will take the shout if there is no other choice. Erdogan is ignorant, egoist and discriminatory but he has done nothing even remotely close to those above.

[Odenat]

Assuming the Gülenists were indeed behind the coup, how is their brand of political Islam different than the one taking flesh under Erdogan's governance? They were allies until a couple of years ago, after all. I also do not see why their ruthlessness and aspiration to control the state apparatus is any different from the means used by Erdogan to forge his own regime. How many capable and promising officers lives' has Erdogan ruined because they were secularists?

Erdoğan is an opportunist, he uses Islam for his own advantage but he never wants to change the country to sharia. You can compare him to a watered down Putin (he never kills his opponents). As an opportunist, he tried to use Gulenists too. Funny thing is that the opposition party CHP said again and again to Erdoğan he is making a big mistake. Years after, Erdoğan said at the TV that he made a big mistake and was tricked by Gulenists.

Gulenists are a cult. They are supported by CIA, have 1000s of schools all around the world. They believe that Gulen is their Mahdi, the "choosen one" who'll bring peace and law to the world. Compared to them, Erdoğan is an innocent baby.

Now, you must ask why CIA supports Gulen. After all, nobody sane will support a cult, right? And that cult want to invade and rule all of the world, starting by Christian West! Well, USA always do the same mistakes again and again; they were sure they could control Khomeini at 1979 therefore they replaced the shah of Iran with him, they were allies with Al-Queda, they supported every Islamist organization fighting against their enemies, they are supporting PYD terrorist organization right now, etc etc.

USA... USA never changes...

[Exarch]

my, my them turks be getting mighty ornery over the Gulenists:

The birthplace of Gulen in the village of Korucuk is going to be turned into a public toilet, according to a report from local outlet Beyaz Gazete.

The lavatory is to be built from materials coming from the house Gulen was born in. The outlet claimed the villagers themselves asked authorities for the unusual construction project in the central province of Erzurum.

https://www.rt.com/news/353837-turke...erdogan-gulen/

stay classy, Turkey

btw they're burning Gulen's books now; how much longer until they start burning people?

[gornoviceanu]

I will not multi quote since I have no clue how to.. oh well, here goes:

@ Setekh - I am reffering to Gulenists as people in his school, his followers. If you are one of them and the term offends you I will stop using it, I didn't say it in a demeaning way.

First off, to the jailing thing.. the US is actively shutting down the Gulen movement inside their country. By closing their schools. Erdogan jails OR dismisses teachers and the likes. I don't see how that is different, only because they go to jail in Turkey? Both states (USA and Turkey) are trying to defend against this movement. I don't care what "I can find online", I have read some of his speeches and they all justify some sort of "rage" or whatever if they don't get what they want. This is inciting. I don't care if it is for a good cause or not, but inciting unrest is something any state condemns. I don't know why Erdogan has to allow this to continue, even after it's clear they tried to coup Turkey. Or do you consider that as being a lie? Are you one of the guys that thinks the coup itself was a hoax?

"Just because a group of people are against something it doesn't mean they're for something else. " - Huh? Turks decided to face the army for the current state, meaning Erdogan's presidency. He has also won elections. He is legitimate, like it or not.

You call the majority "the mob". However you want to call it, democracy works like this. If the majority votes something, that will happen. My church example was just explaining that, I do not know what secular laws you have in place right now but if Erdogan wants to change them and he has the popular support then the change is legitimate and no one has the moral right to interfere - even if the change might not suit some. Hell, I would be against it myself but I remember I don't live there and leave the decision making to the Turks.




@ conon394

Actually, Russia stopped all trade with them, deported Turkish workers in Russia and banned Russian tourists from visiting Turkey. If that's not an economic war, I don't know what is. The gesture was hostile and an act of war. Good for the Russians that they have more sense than to just barge in like good old NATO does. At least one sphere of the world still has common sense. Also, I have yet to see the charts / radar evidence to proof the Russian plane flew through Turkish air space. As far as I remember at that time all NATO said was "yes it happened that way, trust us". Liberty was a false flag. For every example you give me there I can show you how nations who wanted to avoid war / aggression did not shoot down aircraft, even if they airspace was violated. Most recent example, the Baltic sea. On both "sides".

Why would it be displeasing to the USA that a NATO member is making peace with Russia? Gee, I wonder.

What doctrine? The doctrine to "globalize" the world under total USA control. They either join willingly, join by being economically destroyed or their leaders get killed or chased off and replaced. Venezuela (illegal embargo), Iraq (where are those famed chem weapons), Libya (because "human rights" - notice how they only enforce them selectively? USA doesn't care about "human rights" in Saudi Arabia does it?) are all innocent victims of USA domination dreams.


Gadaffi is a ing hero for Libya and Africans in general. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKMyY2V0J0Y if you have the time and patience to listen to this, you will surely understand why Gadaffi was assassinated by the USA. During the final months the USA did what it does in Syria, namely claims to bomb rebels but in truth they destroy government infrastructure and logistics, critical to the war effort. I don't care about what "it looks" like, the USA is master of deceit. Stop trying to tell me that some rebels can defeat an army. Those "rebels" defeated the Libyan army because the USA bombed them to the stone age, claiming to fight ISIS or whatever fantasies you people feel safe believing. Also, miss Nuland seems to be travelling to all these future "arab spring" countries, I am sure that is purely a coincidence.

Assad.. well just look at Syria before and after, the country looked very good. Better than my "civilized" EU country, Romania.

Sadam Hussein.. what did he do wrong, not sell cheap oil to the USA? Not being a puppy to Saudi? Where are the famed "chemical weapons".. oh yeah, it's , they just needed a reason to invade.


Yanukovych won the election, his agenda being against joining the EU and NATO (NATO is a "hidden" prerequisite of EU, name me 1 country that is in EU and is not in NATO). The sniper has never been proven to be Yanukovych's man, nor would it make sense of trying to cull a protest like that. But yeah.. hur hur "Russian aggression" hur hur. I love it that when Russia supports rebels in Ukraine it's "Russian aggression" but when USA supports rebels in the Middle East it's "fighting for human rights, bringing democracy". Duplicity at it's best.




I am Romanian and let me tell you this: no one in this country is going to war with Russia, regardless of what the mainstream media spews. No one fears "Russian aggression" besides overly aggressive "news" publications. We are more worried that the retarded politics displayed by NATO and EU will get us into a fragile position. We already are on the verge thanks to mutti Merkel and her refugees, just look at these imbecilic politics dictated by the Bruxeles US lapdogs.

You will see an anti EU demonstration and pro nationalist Romania on the 19th, 20th and 21th of August. Be sure to dig it up, I'm sure the mainstream media won't say much about it and will deform reality. The items of the protest are less FOREIGN interference in our country, less corporate corruption (check out what Holzindustrie Schweighofer does in our country), less political correct , less power to secret services. Also, it's stated "No Soros" so I am sure it will branded as some "extremist" by mainstream "free" media.


It would be best if the USA kept to itself, no one asked them to enforce "human rights" or "democracy" everywhere, it's like they think it is their God given right to force upon the world their vision of "right" and "wrong".

[PointOfViewGun]

@ Setekh - I am reffering to Gulenists as people in his school, his followers. If you are one of them and the term offends you I will stop using it, I didn't say it in a demeaning way.

First off, to the jailing thing.. the US is actively shutting down the Gulen movement inside their country. By closing their schools. Erdogan jails OR dismisses teachers and the likes. I don't see how that is different, only because they go to jail in Turkey? Both states (USA and Turkey) are trying to defend against this movement. I don't care what "I can find online", I have read some of his speeches and they all justify some sort of "rage" or whatever if they don't get what they want. This is inciting. I don't care if it is for a good cause or not, but inciting unrest is something any state condemns. I don't know why Erdogan has to allow this to continue, even after it's clear they tried to coup Turkey. Or do you consider that as being a lie? Are you one of the guys that thinks the coup itself was a hoax?

"Just because a group of people are against something it doesn't mean they're for something else. " - Huh? Turks decided to face the army for the current state, meaning Erdogan's presidency. He has also won elections. He is legitimate, like it or not.

You call the majority "the mob". However you want to call it, democracy works like this. If the majority votes something, that will happen. My church example was just explaining that, I do not know what secular laws you have in place right now but if Erdogan wants to change them and he has the popular support then the change is legitimate and no one has the moral right to interfere - even if the change might not suit some. Hell, I would be against it myself but I remember I don't live there and leave the decision making to the Turks.

You referred to Gezi protesters, not to people from Gülenist schools, as Gülenist. That was quite clear.

Do not confuse whether someone opposes the Gülenist movement or not with pointing out that you're using dubious claims of proof of foul play by him. The end doesn't justify the means.

People opposed a coup. That doesn't mean that all of them want Erdoğan to continue ruling the country. You're basically telling me that just because your two options are getting stabbed or getting raped and you oppose getting stabbed, you wanna get raped. That's not how logic works.

Nope. That's not how democracy with checks and balances work at all. There are many times wishes of the majority are dismissed or ignored because we have checks and balances. The constitution of any country ensures that which is why it usually requires not just more than half but much more to change it.

[Odenat]

The US is doing no such thing. You seem to have poor understanding of US education. The Gulen movement operates several large and many of what are charter schools in the US - private schools that provide primary and secondary education. In some states you can a voucher from the state which represents a valuation of what it would have cost the state for a child in public school and the schools can of course apply fro grants from various sources. Several Gulen school networks and individual schools have come under investigation or been exposed to private lawsuits over various allegations - bid rigging, financial mismanagement or financial fraud, failing to use certified teachers, immigration fraud, and similar things - But not all or anywhere close. These charges range from local school boards to the FEDs. But there is no systemic effort the Gulen movement. Some schools were some some may loose the suits in private cases and some may or indeed have been shuttered. Its worth noting that the vast majority of demands for civial lawsuits originate international law firm Amsterdam & Partners LLP - retained by the Turkish government and seem to have no other co complainants (local, state, or Federal) or other private persons.

Thus I would conclude the only really systemic effort to attack or the outlaw the Gulen movement in the US is one by Turkey using the US civil law system

And did you ever wonder what they teach to the children at Gulen's schools? All over the world, they teach them how Gulen is always right, how they always need to follow their "big brothers" (or big sisters) orders, how Gulenists deserve to rule the world as Gulen their Mahdi? Is it possible the same thing is taught at USA too?

Oh, and they teach very well, the children graduated from Gulen's schools always gets the highest scores at exams. (If the children are not good enough, they cheat) Do you know that if you are very bright and does not want to join the organization, they make you marry to a Gulenist women? For example, many of Turkish generals who joined the coup were marryed to Gulenists and funnily, these women were at the known cheater lists at university exams.

Did you always wonder how many of those Gulenists right now works for US state, banks and media? How many more will join them in the next 20 years?

[gornoviceanu]

You referred to Gezi protesters, not to people from Gülenist schools, as Gülenist. That was quite clear.

Do not confuse whether someone opposes the Gülenist movement or not with pointing out that you're using dubious claims of proof of foul play by him. The end doesn't justify the means.

People opposed a coup. That doesn't mean that all of them want Erdoğan to continue ruling the country. You're basically telling me that just because your two options are getting stabbed or getting raped and you oppose getting stabbed, you wanna get raped. That's not how logic works.

Nope. That's not how democracy with checks and balances work at all. There are many times wishes of the majority are dismissed or ignored because we have checks and balances. The constitution of any country ensures that which is why it usually requires not just more than half but much more to change it.

No, the link I posted was an example of the inciting speech this Gulen guy does. I have nothing to say about Gezi deal, get over it. The article just happened to be about it, I just pointed the article because you asked for proof about inciting to violence and civil disobedience speech. And I keep my statement that Gulen told his followers / whatever you want me to call them so you won't be offended that it is OK to "rage" if they don't get what they want.

I didn't say ALL of them want Erdogan, I said the MAJORITY wants him. I understand you don't sympathize this guy but your fellow folk do. Just like me and my social circles dislike being a part of NATO but accept it since that is what the majority wants.

"There are many times wishes of the majority are dismissed or ignored because we have checks and balances" - I don't follow this at all. During Ataturk, Turk society was for secular state. The majority wanted this, and it happened. Those checks and balances were placed into your Constitution because the "mob" wanted them there. Ataturk could not achieve these laws and balances if he wasn't supported by the majority. Do you think that there were no "conservative" Muslims at that time? There were, a lot. But the majority was not theirs so they could not stop these laws. If the majority has shifted.. tough luck. They dealt with it. If the majority wants something else, deal with it. If not, move out. I don't come and make a Romanian community in the Islam world and demand special laws that exempt me of certain aspects of law just because I'm a minority and "I have rights". I accept the social order of that country.

[conon394]

First off, to the jailing thing.. the US is actively shutting down the Gulen movement inside their country.

The US is doing no such thing. You seem to have poor understanding of US education. The Gulen movement operates several large and many of what are charter schools in the US - private schools that provide primary and secondary education. In some states you can a voucher from the state which represents a valuation of what it would have cost the state for a child in public school and the schools can of course apply fro grants from various sources. Several Gulen school networks and individual schools have come under investigation or been exposed to private lawsuits over various allegations - bid rigging, financial mismanagement or financial fraud, failing to use certified teachers, immigration fraud, and similar things - But not all or anywhere close. These charges range from local school boards to the FEDs. But there is no systemic effort the Gulen movement. Some schools were some some may loose the suits in private cases and some may or indeed have been shuttered. Its worth noting that the vast majority of demands for civial lawsuits originate international law firm Amsterdam & Partners LLP - retained by the Turkish government and seem to have no other co complainants (local, state, or Federal) or other private persons.

Thus I would conclude the only really systemic effort to attack or the outlaw the Gulen movement in the US is one by Turkey using the US civil law system.

Actually, Russia stopped all trade with them, deported Turkish workers in Russia and banned Russian tourists from visiting Turkey. If that's not an economic war, I don't know what is.

Then perhaps Turkey should consider altering the rules of engagement for its pilots.

Good for the Russians that they have more sense than to just barge in like good old NATO does.

Examples please NATO - since I provided 3 examples where the US did more or less nothing in more serious situations. Pleas make a NATO specific example. Also I not quite sure how you see good sense. in the Russian response so lacking an apology from Iraq the US should launched a bizarre pogrom like attack on all things Iraq-like in the US? OK whatever floats your boat.

At least one sphere of the world still has common sense

I would say the response was anything but common sense - looks a lot more bullying to me - not the restraint one would in a nation that still aspire to great power status.

Also, I have yet to see the charts / radar evidence to proof the Russian plane flew through Turkish air space.

A Turkish plane did the shooting for its own reasons - The US simply confirmed the Turkish view of the Russian's actions.

Liberty was a false flag

What. A without any source that is prosperous statement. You do realize what a false flag is right? I don't think so. Gulf of Tonkin incident - yes but tell me who was setting this false flag in the USS Liberty indecent and to what end?

For every example you give me there I can show you how nations who wanted to avoid war / aggression did not shoot down aircraft, even if they airspace was violated. Most recent example, the Baltic sea. On both "sides".

Indeed I never said otherwise. I simply pointed Russian response was bulling where most nations realize that accidents do happen and generally do not view them as a war (except for rhetoric).

Why would it be displeasing to the USA that a NATO member is making peace with Russia? Gee, I wonder.

Last time I checked NATO is not at war with Russia.

What doctrine? The doctrine to "globalize" the world under total USA control.

A little late - that would have been a project for late 40's and Early 50's when the world was devastated by WW2. When the US could have perhaps moved quickly to deal with Beria in the USSR and in return for a mile aid (on a scale of war time LL) and the cold war might never have happens. Besides sketch you ideal out a bit more here because I'm not seeing the US control bit of Globalization.

They either join willingly, join by being economically destroyed or their leaders get killed or chased off and replaced

So nobody has any agency its always the US, rather like conservancy theory - it makes so easier when its all so simple.

Venezuela (illegal embargo)

Yep I grant that US policy toward Venezuela is poor, but than again so the Economic policy of the Chaz and his successor.

Iraq (where are those famed chem weapons)

Let's go full circle here. First Saddam would be fine if he had never overplayed his hand by invading Kuwait. But neither here nor there the problem was Saddam had to cheat on the embargo related programs. Being a dictator he needed to get goodies to core bases of support so he could stay in power. Same with constantly messing with weapons inspections. No realistically a rational outsider new he had no nuclear program and little if any chemical weapons left. His theatrics were mostly for internal consumption and for Iran and The House of Saud and Syria - to raise doubts in their minds that he was not as weak as looked to be. The optics were bad because he did not see how his actions looked in the west. Or perhaps he figured anything more than the odd bomb was he going to face and Iran and Syria were bigger worries if thought Iraq was weak.

In any case the war of GB Jr is generally considered one if not the worst policy blunders by the US within the last 100 years or so.

Libya (because "human rights" - notice how they only enforce them selectively?

Hey I never thought Responsibility to Protect doctrine was viable or credible as a new ideal in international law. But again Gadaffi did himself no favors with his Rhetoric at the time.

USA doesn't care about "human rights" in Saudi Arabia does it?)

Good point slightly not the same thing however. Because I suspect for you this a trick question. I can't make a right answer to. You stated above:

"However, Turkey has a right to rule itself. If Turks do not want a secular state with churches on Turkish land, then there will be no churches on Turkish land. Not being a secular state does not mean they can go and burn down Christians or Atheists or whatever, it simply means the only official religion is Islam."

There is no particular signs of dissent under the House of Saud and they can point to the fact that they simply retain their traditional culture. The reasons in effect that many Native Americans are except from regulations on whaling, or bear hunting, or using certain otherwise banned substances, or certain fishing techniques etc. However I agree The house of Saud is odious and it (and Qatar) are the financial backers of the spread of Wahhabi Islam. Now in the short term 30-40 years ago it was a marriage of convenience. It is one the US needs to reconsider since it is a relic of the Cold War but habits are often hard to break for states as much as for people. But if the now sweeps and demand the house Saud abdicates and impose a liberal democracy, human rights etc. You say see the is just angling for Saudi oil.

are all innocent victims of USA domination dreams.

Yes the world is for of puppets who lack any agency.

Gadaffi is a hero for Libya and Africans in general. if you have the time and patience to listen to this, you will surely understand why Gadaffi was assassinated by the USA.

Ahh Yes no agency again his own always loved him he was no dictator, never invaded Chad, just an around good joe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKMyY2V0J0Y

Running Thoughts

OK so first lost sound but looked some rant about the origins of some virus must be the West huh? And lets Whine we didn't spend our blood fight the Axis but we deserved a better seat at the table - what kind deal does he he would gotten from Adolf?

The reason for the Veto is stop the great powers from going to war against each other again that was what was on the minds of the people who wrote it.

No wonder he needs to be a dictator he is one crappy public speaker. A junior Debate Team would eat him for lunch.

What common interest in his war in Chad - then?

What did he pull this together over coffee 20 minutes before started - ramble ramble.

Come on move on - devolving power to the general assembly is manual for gridlock.

But they do have the power and ability to act, Korea would have been waiting along time for Uruguay to stop Stalin from taking all of Korea.

In fever dream I'd consider compensation when I see corrupt drop. But considering how states run their state oil companies I'm not handing out my green.

Stop folding you paper, practice and have 3x5 cards ready.

oops fell asleep

Forgot about your own nuclear program then?

5000 Thousand warship umm the US navy has not been that big since WW2. Did he forget he not addressing a force rally back home

How exactly

Well Mentioning C Taylor I unaware of Libyan led effort or proposal ever to have tried.

Really yes George flew all the way for a pretty poorly run execution

A lot interfered the original rebellion however.

Of course Lumumba - and argument of no agency sure the assumption is that it was West, but it is inevitably more complex than that.

War lots of mistake - does the UN even have an Assassination file(s)? I want know who killed Benny Goodman and why who shot down his plane?

Lee Harvey Osweld. Did he bing watch the X files or something.

Jake Ruby an Israeli - I believe the word for somebody born in Chicago is American. Guy died of Cancer which would have been common in a heavy smoker. And he had already been tried once.

Nice list, but how many people assassinated is he passing by in this rambling list of dots ( in Europe in Asia in South America) why and King who certain kinda gets in the way direction he sorta is pointing to I immagine will get someday.

15 Battle ships (the US had only one in service)

Hey why on about assassinations - how about Abu Nidal Organization and your (Gadaffi's) support for it - we must open the files umm err maybe not that one.

Then why not attack the fishing boats?.

Treaty with whom exactly - in Somalia that is.

Companies make viruses up to sell vaccinations. Gadaffi's grasp evolution must be near zero. Also Vaccines are very low profit, very low return on invest its only massive amounts of grants that keep research going. Phrama wants to sell pills you have to take for cronic conditions.

Hey so we are free to kill each other in own country but not make money?

He's against the land mine ban - lots other ways to use land mines chum. It seems any weapon is defensive if only use for defense.

Man he looks some kid scrambling to find his homework

Rome? Needs his meds

Darfur Statement makes no sense - but that is not new in this rant

So I watched the video the and now you owe at least 3 beers for that drivel.

---------------

Assad.. well just look at Syria before and after, the country looked very good. Better than my "civilized" EU country, Romania.

Good thing you did not in Homms back in the day of Assad Sr. And hey who voted for Jr? Again
Also the no draft thing give that try as a Syrian.

namely claims to bomb rebels but in truth they destroy government infrastructure and logistics, critical to the war effort.

I think you meant Russia there.

I don't care about what "it looks" like, the USA is master of deceit.

Well once we plunge into paranoia and conspiracy there is not much to talk about.

Stop trying to tell me that some rebels can defeat an army.

Rebels win civil wars all the time, and loose them as well

Those "rebels" defeated the Libyan army because the USA bombed them to the stone age

No ISIS claim as I pointed it was largely driven by R2P ideals.

claiming to fight ISIS or whatever fantasies you people feel safe believing

Huh which are we on here, Syria now? Nobody brought ISIS in Libya.

Also, miss Nuland seems to be travelling to all these future "arab spring" countries, I am sure that is purely a coincidence.

Since you provide no links or time frame or specifics I cannot answer you, but I rather lean toward complexity than the safety of simple conspiracy, so w/o any concrete point to answer I would yes.

Sadam Hussein.. what did he do wrong, not sell cheap oil to the USA? Not being a puppy to Saudi? Where are the famed "chemical weapons".. oh yeah, it's they just needed a reason to invade.

/QUOTE]
Two unilateral invasions of neighboring states, use of chemical weapons when he did have them verse his civilians and vs Iran. Thw world market sets the price of oil nobody made him sell it and he could tried charge above the market price but that's got nothing to do with the US.

Yanukovych won the election, his agenda being against joining the EU and NATO (NATO is a "hidden" prerequisite of EU, name me 1 country that is in EU and is not in NATO). The sniper has never been proven to be Yanukovych's man, nor would it make sense of trying to cull a protest like that. But yeah.. hur hur "Russian aggression" hur hur. I love it that when Russia supports rebels in Ukraine it's "Russian aggression" but when USA supports rebels in the Middle East it's "fighting for human rights, bringing democracy". Duplicity at it's best.

Nations have interests not friends.

I am Romanian and let me tell you this: no one in this country is going to war with Russia, regardless of what the mainstream media spews. No one fears "Russian aggression" besides overly aggressive "news" publications. We are more worried that the retarded politics displayed by NATO and EU will get us into a fragile position. We already are on the verge thanks to mutti Merkel and her refugees, just look at these imbecilic politics dictated by the Bruxeles US lapdogs.

I don't believe anyone is planning to go to war why is it weighing on you mind?

EU is a US lap dog – news me. But it might above my pay grade, I only get the half of the standard CIA tax credit for spreading perfidy and lies on the internet. Too many dependents they figure you are posting enough.

You will see an anti EU demonstration and pro nationalist Romania on the 19th, 20th and 21th of August. Be sure to dig it up, I'm sure the mainstream media won't say much about it and will deform reality. The items of the protest are less FOREIGN interference in our country, less corporate corruption (check out what Holzindustrie Schweighofer does in our country), less political correct , less power to secret services. Also, it's stated "No Soros" so I am sure it will branded as some "extremist" by mainstream "free" media.

I'll look.

It would be best if the USA kept to itself, no one asked them to enforce "human rights" or "democracy" everywhere, it's like they think it is their God given right to force upon the world their vision of "right" and "wrong".

Figure you be better off now if Hitler won, Bet there are a lot of South Koreans who might differ with you.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, the link I posted was an example of the inciting speech this Gulen guy does. I have nothing to say about Gezi deal, get over it. The article just happened to be about it, I just pointed the article because you asked for proof about inciting to violence and civil disobedience speech. And I keep my statement that Gulen told his followers / whatever you want me to call them so you won't be offended that it is OK to "rage" if they don't get what they want.

I didn't say ALL of them want Erdogan, I said the MAJORITY wants him. I understand you don't sympathize this guy but your fellow folk do. Just like me and my social circles dislike being a part of NATO but accept it since that is what the majority wants.

"There are many times wishes of the majority are dismissed or ignored because we have checks and balances" - I don't follow this at all. During Ataturk, Turk society was for secular state. The majority wanted this, and it happened. Those checks and balances were placed into your Constitution because the "mob" wanted them there. Ataturk could not achieve these laws and balances if he wasn't supported by the majority. Do you think that there were no "conservative" Muslims at that time? There were, a lot. But the majority was not theirs so they could not stop these laws. If the majority has shifted.. tough luck. They dealt with it. If the majority wants something else, deal with it. If not, move out. I don't come and make a Romanian community in the Islam world and demand special laws that exempt me of certain aspects of law just because I'm a minority and "I have rights". I accept the social order of that country.

You haven't really provided any evidence to support your claim that Gülen praises acts of terrorism and openly calls for a civil war. As I said, just because we oppose that man doesn't mean we can make stuff up. You might have nothing to say about Gezi protesters now, but a few posts ago you labelled them as Gülenists which was an extremely idiotic claim to make.

Saying that all of them or most of them supports Erdoğan doesn't make a difference. Sigh... Erdoğan only got elected through the votes of 42% of the registered voters. If everyone in Turkey opposes the coup whether they voted for him or not, how can you claim that most people want Erdoğan's presidency? Logic doesn't work that way. Opposing a coup is not an indication that you want his presidency. It's merely an indication that you prefer it to a coup. This is a very simple matter of logic.

How do you know majority of the Turkish public at the time of Atatürk wanted a secular republic with Western clothing and alphabet? You have a poll we're not aware of? Many of Atatürk's reforms were not created because of the wishes of the public. The constitution of 1924 was not voted by the public either. When Turkey signed the European Human Rights Convention, the public was not asked about it. As I said, to be able to change the constitution requires more than half the votes in the parliament as well. That's why AKP fails to change things as they please. They need 2/3rd of the vote. A simple majority is not enough. They can make a law with a simple majority, but that in turn is subject to supervision of the Constitutional Court which can easily overturn the law based on the checks and balances we have in the constitution.

What you say here is completely out of line with how modern democracies work...

[Tureuki]

No, the link I posted was an example of the inciting speech this Gulen guy does. I have nothing to say about Gezi deal, get over it. The article just happened to be about it, I just pointed the article because you asked for proof about inciting to violence and civil disobedience speech. And I keep my statement that Gulen told his followers / whatever you want me to call them so you won't be offended that it is OK to "rage" if they don't get what they want.

I didn't say ALL of them want Erdogan, I said the MAJORITY wants him. I understand you don't sympathize this guy but your fellow folk do. Just like me and my social circles dislike being a part of NATO but accept it since that is what the majority wants.

"There are many times wishes of the majority are dismissed or ignored because we have checks and balances" - I don't follow this at all. During Ataturk, Turk society was for secular state. The majority wanted this, and it happened. Those checks and balances were placed into your Constitution because the "mob" wanted them there. Ataturk could not achieve these laws and balances if he wasn't supported by the majority. Do you think that there were no "conservative" Muslims at that time? There were, a lot. But the majority was not theirs so they could not stop these laws. If the majority has shifted.. tough luck. They dealt with it. If the majority wants something else, deal with it. If not, move out. I don't come and make a Romanian community in the Islam world and demand special laws that exempt me of certain aspects of law just because I'm a minority and "I have rights". I accept the social order of that country.

Ataturk's reforms were the decisions of a small, educated elite. Not the will of common people. I have no problem with that even though it was not democratic, because the people were not ready to democracy back then. Over %95 were illiterate and many were under the influence of retarded religious leaders. Ataturk removed their influence and made attempts to make people understand what they believe without the guidance of someone else, so they could have a free will.

"I don't come and make a Romanian community in the Islam world and demand special laws that exempt me of certain aspects of law just because I'm a minority and "I have rights". I accept the social order of that country."

You should, if you don't demand thats your problem, you shouldn't have an inferiority complex. Are you aware of that Christian nations were semi autonomous under the Ottoman empire? They had the right to be exempt from Sharia in a country where every Muslim had to obey Sharia. Even an undemocratic empire was aware of this and you think in a democrati nation, minorities cannot demand rights.

[Bethrezen]

On topic, the Turks should take back their country, if they believe they should.
As far as we know, Erdogan was fairly elected. I think it's wrong to advocate for the West intervention in every country where there is a suspicion of dictatorship (e.g. Syria). There is no international court where these issues are judged, there is no possibility for the accused to defend itself. This is no freedom and democracy.
Why, you could declare any government a dictatorship, with careful media manipulation and propaganda, and go to war against them.

I don't understand. Many of you play Total War, Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron etc., where even more twisted and complicated choices and issues are being placed upon the player. Yet, "real life" is viewed by many in such a simplistic and naive way. I'm sorry but I couldn't play a strategy game designed in the way some of you think this world works.

[conon394]

@Bethrezen

where there is a suspicion of dictatorship (e.g. Syria)

Suspicion of Dictatorship??? It was dictatorship since 1971 or under Assad sr and then his picked successor.

[B. W.]

Just some food for thought. There are around 50 nuclear bombs at the US air base in Turkey. These are not tactical but strategic. True WMDs. Ironically, because of a long ago NATO agreement these weapons are partly secured by Turkish air force.

[squirel]

Only a sniper shot his own on the bridge the others refused the order to fire. Most of those soldiers are newbies and did not know what was happening they thought they were on a training exercise. You cant rape and torture them while being a EU member and NATO member. Erdogan is a dictator. And I eat them for breakfast

You are making things up subconciously. Be careful with wishful thinking.

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[Timoleon of Korinthos]

Erdoğan is an opportunist, he uses Islam for his own advantage but he never wants to change the country to sharia.

And yet in hindsight that's the direction towards which his time in office leads to. His background fits the profile perfectly too.

Gulenists are a cult. They are supported by CIA, have 1000s of schools all around the world. They believe that Gulen is their Mahdi, the "choosen one" who'll bring peace and law to the world. Compared to them, Erdoğan is an innocent baby.

Okay, so if Gulen were to die tomorrow, would his organization collapse? They do have some sort of ideology that binds them together other than loyalty to that man and that glue is a belief in a particular brand of Islam, no?

[squirel]

Where? You may hate Gülen for having "his" organization try to take over many parts of the government, but making stuff up about what he says won't help constructing that position.






We already have videos of police officers threatening handcuffed soldiers in custody with raping their young kids. So, finger rape of a few soldiers doesn't sound so implausible. We know for sure some are being beaten up which is an other crime as well. The rape allegations were made by two lawyers from Ankara. Sure, not all soldiers are being raped, but there are some who are likely going through difficult times which are equally criminal. We don't always see the same for rapists or murderers. Somehow, just because people died as part of a "coup" attempt people suspend basic human rights that even criminals have. Its a clear indication of whether someone truly favors rule of law or rule of the mob.

Finger rape? You mean the cops actually put their finger, glove or not, in another person anus, the brown eye, where the poop pass? Do they drink from toilett too?

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[Mangalore]

I removed a good lot of posts about discussions about Russia, Romania, NATO or their inter relations which have very little to do with the coup in Turkey and detract from the discussion at hand. If you want to create a thread about this, we have the Political Academy... and probably already such a thread somewhere.

Please keep with the topic. Thanks ~Mangalore